Is Rondo the best defensive PG?

[Boris Badenov]

One thing rondo does great (as did pierce) he funnels his man into the defense where he should.  He isn't really getting beat but putting his man into a double team or tight zone.  Paul wasn't a great man on defender but very good team defender.

It'll be interesting to see how Rondo (and Stevens) adapt to KG's absence in the back line of the defense.

[wdleehi]

He is one of the top defenders at the PG spot.

[Galeto]

No, no way.  I don't think he's even average overall and if he is, he gets there with his ability to create havoc balanced out by his apathetic attempts to contain dribble penetration and rotate and contest shots.  Rondo doesn't funnel his man to any spot.  He lets his man beat him clean then tries to steal the ball from behind about 90 percent of the time.  It's almost too cliche.  I hate it when casual fans think a star player's defense declines after he becomes a star but it really did happen with Rondo.

Rondo was never great at containing dribble penetration early in his career either but he at least tried to slow his man down some.  Where he was great was giving the Celtics defense another near wing-sized defender in the rotation defense.  In the 2008 Finals, it was pretty amazing to see Rondo contest a Gasol jumpshot so well that Gasol turned it down.  How many point guards can do that, even the ones that are bigger than him?  Rondo being so long and fast meant the Celtics' team defense had no exploitable gaps.  The past few seasons, it's hit or miss whether he's even going to run out and contest a shooter at all.

[Vox_Populi]

I think Paul is better, but they are close enough together you could reasonably argue either.

I don't think Conley is far behind either.

[Celtics18]

No, no way.  I don't think he's even average overall and if he is, he gets there with his ability to create havoc balanced out by his apathetic attempts to contain dribble penetration and rotate and contest shots.  Rondo doesn't funnel his man to any spot.  He lets his man beat him clean then tries to steal the ball from behind about 90 percent of the time.  It's almost too cliche.  I hate it when casual fans think a star player's defense declines after he becomes a star but it really did happen with Rondo.

Rondo was never great at containing dribble penetration early in his career either but he at least tried to slow his man down some.  Where he was great was giving the Celtics defense another near wing-sized defender in the rotation defense.  In the 2008 Finals, it was pretty amazing to see Rondo contest a Gasol jumpshot so well that Gasol turned it down.  How many point guards can do that, even the ones that are bigger than him?  Rondo being so long and fast meant the Celtics' team defense had no exploitable gaps.  The past few seasons, it's hit or miss whether he's even going to run out and contest a shooter at all.

This is one of those posts where I guess all I can say is; obviously NBA head coaches don't understand the game as well as Galeto does.

I will add that whenever a post claims that something happens "about 90 percent of the time" without any kind of back up, that it's pretty hard to take seriously.

[crimson_stallion]

Hard to say if he's the best, but definitely up there.  I think PG is one of the most defensively weak positions because:

1.  PG is typically the smallest player (in terms of length and  strength) on the court

2.  You need to send opposing PG's, who are typically the quickest and best ball handling players on the court.  Defending a quick PG with great handles it's hard because they can change direction in a heartbeat and you never really know what they aee going to do.

3.  PG usually does majority of ball handling, so as the opposing PG you are basically the first line of defense.  The other positions are typically next line of defense and already have some idea of what's coming before ir gets to them.

I think there aee very few "elite" defensive PG's - Bradley's ability to change a game with his defense is a rare skill for a 6'2"-6'3" guy.  Last season I think Rondo let his defense drop off a bit, gambled a lot more and seemed to not play D with as much intensity as he has in the last.  Maybe part of that ass due to his  increased offensive responsibility with Pierce and KG in the decline.  In past seasons though he was elite defensively, and definately deserved consideration as t he best defensive PG in the NBA.

[BballTim]

I think Paul is better, but they are close enough together you could reasonably argue either.

  Paul and Rondo play differently on defense. Paul's more of a "stick with your guy" defender while Rondo creates more havoc for opposing offenses by doing more than just defending his guy.

  A couple of things worth pointing out, 1) while people can quibble about how the numbers are munged to come up with a rating, it's generally the case that no matter how the people doing these lists weight the numbers, Rondo comes out near the top. That's because his defensive numbers are so good. 2) Rondo's always near the top of the league for point guards in defensive stats. The other point guards seem to rise and fall by the year but Rondo's consistently at or near the top in a number of categories.

[dark_lord]

rondo was the best defensive pg a few years ago, but now is only as good as he exerts himself defensively.

[Galeto]

No, no way.  I don't think he's even average overall and if he is, he gets there with his ability to create havoc balanced out by his apathetic attempts to contain dribble penetration and rotate and contest shots.  Rondo doesn't funnel his man to any spot.  He lets his man beat him clean then tries to steal the ball from behind about 90 percent of the time.  It's almost too cliche.  I hate it when casual fans think a star player's defense declines after he becomes a star but it really did happen with Rondo.

Rondo was never great at containing dribble penetration early in his career either but he at least tried to slow his man down some.  Where he was great was giving the Celtics defense another near wing-sized defender in the rotation defense.  In the 2008 Finals, it was pretty amazing to see Rondo contest a Gasol jumpshot so well that Gasol turned it down.  How many point guards can do that, even the ones that are bigger than him?  Rondo being so long and fast meant the Celtics' team defense had no exploitable gaps.  The past few seasons, it's hit or miss whether he's even going to run out and contest a shooter at all.

This is one of those posts where I guess all I can say is; obviously NBA head coaches don't understand the game as well as Galeto does.

I will add that whenever a post claims that something happens "about 90 percent of the time" without any kind of back up, that it's pretty hard to take seriously.

This is one of those posts where I guess all I can say is: obviously Celtics18 thinks coaches give a crap about voting for the all-defense teams. 

But seriously, do you really think Rondo is good at containing dribble penetration and gives full effort most of the time to run out and contest shooters?  Those were my points why I think Rondo is at best an average defender and certainly not in the running for the best defensive point guard.  Your response is: count the all-defense teams sucka!

The Celtics have been better defensively without Rondo on the floor the past three seasons and the on/off data underrates the impact because the games the Celtics are much better defensively in the games Rondo completely misses.  How can that player be the best defensive point guard in the league?

On paper, with his length and athleticism, he should be right up there but he doesn't give a dang.

[BballTim]

Hard to say if he's the best, but definitely up there.  I think PG is one of the most defensively weak positions because:

1.  PG is typically the smallest player (in terms of length and  strength) on the court

2.  You need to send opposing PG's, who are typically the quickest and best ball handling players on the court.  Defending a quick PG with great handles it's hard because they can change direction in a heartbeat and you never really know what they aee going to do.

3.  PG usually does majority of ball handling, so as the opposing PG you are basically the first line of defense.  The other positions are typically next line of defense and already have some idea of what's coming before ir gets to them.

I think there aee very few "elite" defensive PG's - Bradley's ability to change a game with his defense is a rare skill for a 6'2"-6'3" guy.  Last season I think Rondo let his defense drop off a bit, gambled a lot more and seemed to not play D with as much intensity as he has in the last.  Maybe part of that ass due to his  increased offensive responsibility with Pierce and KG in the decline.  In past seasons though he was elite defensively, and definately deserved consideration as t he best defensive PG in the NBA.

  It's also worth pointing out that, at least until Bradley came back, Rondo was generally guarding whichever guard on the other team was the better scorer.

[DarkAzcura]

No, no way.  I don't think he's even average overall and if he is, he gets there with his ability to create havoc balanced out by his apathetic attempts to contain dribble penetration and rotate and contest shots.  Rondo doesn't funnel his man to any spot.  He lets his man beat him clean then tries to steal the ball from behind about 90 percent of the time.  It's almost too cliche.  I hate it when casual fans think a star player's defense declines after he becomes a star but it really did happen with Rondo.

Rondo was never great at containing dribble penetration early in his career either but he at least tried to slow his man down some.  Where he was great was giving the Celtics defense another near wing-sized defender in the rotation defense.  In the 2008 Finals, it was pretty amazing to see Rondo contest a Gasol jumpshot so well that Gasol turned it down.  How many point guards can do that, even the ones that are bigger than him?  Rondo being so long and fast meant the Celtics' team defense had no exploitable gaps.  The past few seasons, it's hit or miss whether he's even going to run out and contest a shooter at all.

This is one of those posts where I guess all I can say is; obviously NBA head coaches don't understand the game as well as Galeto does.

I will add that whenever a post claims that something happens "about 90 percent of the time" without any kind of back up, that it's pretty hard to take seriously.

This is one of those posts where I guess all I can say is: obviously Celtics18 thinks coaches give a crap about voting for the all-defense teams. 

But seriously, do you really think Rondo is good at containing dribble penetration and gives full effort most of the time to run out and contest shooters?  Those were my points why I think Rondo is at best an average defender and certainly not in the running for the best defensive point guard.  Your response is: count the all-defense teams sucka!

The Celtics have been better defensively without Rondo on the floor the past three seasons and the on/off data underrates the impact because the games the Celtics are much better defensively in the games Rondo completely misses.  How can that player be the best defensive point guard in the league?

On paper, with his length and athleticism, he should be right up there but he doesn't give a dang.

I think the real point is that while Rondo can improve in areas of his defense, it doesn't make him a worse defending PG relative to his competition. Just because he is the best or one of the best defending PGs doesn't mean he is a perfect defender. Sometimes he is lazy, sometimes he doesn't close out, and sometimes he doesn't fight through the pick, but advanced stats and even my personal "eye test" have him ranked at the top.

I'm honestly shocked at the amount of people who complain that Rondo doesn't stop dribble penetration. We all remember that Rondo is point guard and defends other point guards? Their job is to be able to penetrate any defense. The main job of a point guard on defense is to wreak havoc at the top with help defense and make sure he doesn't funnel an offensive player to his strong side or the weak side of our defense. There is barely such a thing as stopping a point guard's dribble penetration in the NBA without proper help and rotations, which Rondo is smarter than almost anyone at doing.

I mean everyone keeps talking about these stronger defenders at the PG spot, but why are they stronger? None of these other guys are stopping dribble penetration or are even able to close out on every 3 pointer.  We see Rondo himself absolutely slice up guys like Paul, Williams, and Parker on the dribble. No one can stop Rondo's dribble penetration, and I rarely see detractors of Rondo's defense ever notice or point that out.

[BballTim]

No, no way.  I don't think he's even average overall and if he is, he gets there with his ability to create havoc balanced out by his apathetic attempts to contain dribble penetration and rotate and contest shots.  Rondo doesn't funnel his man to any spot.  He lets his man beat him clean then tries to steal the ball from behind about 90 percent of the time.  It's almost too cliche.  I hate it when casual fans think a star player's defense declines after he becomes a star but it really did happen with Rondo.

Rondo was never great at containing dribble penetration early in his career either but he at least tried to slow his man down some.  Where he was great was giving the Celtics defense another near wing-sized defender in the rotation defense.  In the 2008 Finals, it was pretty amazing to see Rondo contest a Gasol jumpshot so well that Gasol turned it down.  How many point guards can do that, even the ones that are bigger than him?  Rondo being so long and fast meant the Celtics' team defense had no exploitable gaps.  The past few seasons, it's hit or miss whether he's even going to run out and contest a shooter at all.

This is one of those posts where I guess all I can say is; obviously NBA head coaches don't understand the game as well as Galeto does.

I will add that whenever a post claims that something happens "about 90 percent of the time" without any kind of back up, that it's pretty hard to take seriously.

This is one of those posts where I guess all I can say is: obviously Celtics18 thinks coaches give a crap about voting for the all-defense teams. 

But seriously, do you really think Rondo is good at containing dribble penetration and gives full effort most of the time to run out and contest shooters?  Those were my points why I think Rondo is at best an average defender and certainly not in the running for the best defensive point guard.  Your response is: count the all-defense teams sucka!

The Celtics have been better defensively without Rondo on the floor the past three seasons and the on/off data underrates the impact because the games the Celtics are much better defensively in the games Rondo completely misses.  How can that player be the best defensive point guard in the league?

On paper, with his length and athleticism, he should be right up there but he doesn't give a dang.

  Spot up shooters do exceedingly poorly against Rondo, obviously you're missing something in your analysis. And you'd have to consider that Rondo a) plays the most minutes on the team, so he gets the most minutes with the backups, b) spends more minutes playing when KG's on the bench than any of the other guards and c) played most of his minutes early in the season before the new players figured out our defensive schemes before you put too much stock into those on/off numbers. If you watched the games in Nov/Dec last year you heard Scal talking a lot about players missing rotations (which led to defensive breakdowns) and he was generally talking about all the new guys, not Rondo.

[PhoSita]

I gotta say, I don't really care who the best defensive point guard in the league is, because it doesn't seem like point guard is a position that makes a large difference on that end of the floor.

Give me a good defensive big over a great defensive point guard any day, considering the league's current rule set.

[Celtics18]

No, no way.  I don't think he's even average overall and if he is, he gets there with his ability to create havoc balanced out by his apathetic attempts to contain dribble penetration and rotate and contest shots.  Rondo doesn't funnel his man to any spot.  He lets his man beat him clean then tries to steal the ball from behind about 90 percent of the time.  It's almost too cliche.  I hate it when casual fans think a star player's defense declines after he becomes a star but it really did happen with Rondo.

Rondo was never great at containing dribble penetration early in his career either but he at least tried to slow his man down some.  Where he was great was giving the Celtics defense another near wing-sized defender in the rotation defense.  In the 2008 Finals, it was pretty amazing to see Rondo contest a Gasol jumpshot so well that Gasol turned it down.  How many point guards can do that, even the ones that are bigger than him?  Rondo being so long and fast meant the Celtics' team defense had no exploitable gaps.  The past few seasons, it's hit or miss whether he's even going to run out and contest a shooter at all.

This is one of those posts where I guess all I can say is; obviously NBA head coaches don't understand the game as well as Galeto does.

I will add that whenever a post claims that something happens "about 90 percent of the time" without any kind of back up, that it's pretty hard to take seriously.

This is one of those posts where I guess all I can say is: obviously Celtics18 thinks coaches give a crap about voting for the all-defense teams. 

But seriously, do you really think Rondo is good at containing dribble penetration and gives full effort most of the time to run out and contest shooters?  Those were my points why I think Rondo is at best an average defender and certainly not in the running for the best defensive point guard.  Your response is: count the all-defense teams sucka!

The Celtics have been better defensively without Rondo on the floor the past three seasons and the on/off data underrates the impact because the games the Celtics are much better defensively in the games Rondo completely misses.  How can that player be the best defensive point guard in the league?

On paper, with his length and athleticism, he should be right up there but he doesn't give a dang.

I think the real point is that while Rondo can improve in areas of his defense, it doesn't make him a worse defending PG relative to his competition. Just because he is the best or one of the best defending PGs doesn't mean he is a perfect defender. Sometimes he is lazy, sometimes he doesn't close out, and sometimes he doesn't fight through the pick, but advanced stats and even my personal "eye test" have him ranked at the top.

I'm honestly shocked at the amount of people who complain that Rondo doesn't stop dribble penetration. We all remember that Rondo is point guard and defends other point guards? Their job is to be able to penetrate any defense. The main job of a point guard on defense is to wreak havoc at the top with help defense and make sure he doesn't funnel an offensive player to his strong side or the weak side of our defense. There is barely such a thing as stopping a point guard's dribble penetration in the NBA without proper help and rotations, which Rondo is smarter than almost anyone at doing.

I mean everyone keeps talking about these stronger defenders at the PG spot, but why are they stronger? None of these other guys are stopping dribble penetration or are even able to close out on every 3 pointer.  We see Rondo himself absolutely slice up guys like Paul, Williams, and Parker on the dribble. No one can stop Rondo's dribble penetration, and I rarely see detractors of Rondo's defense ever notice or point that out.

Thank you.

[DarkAzcura]

I gotta say, I don't really care who the best defensive point guard in the league is, because it doesn't seem like point guard is a position that makes a large difference on that end of the floor.

Give me a good defensive big over a great defensive point guard any day, considering the league's current rule set.

Well that's why I think Rondo is so uniquely important. Positional defense at the point guard spot is overrated, but proper help defense and getting a point guard out of his comfort zone is super important. I think Rondo is pretty good at making point guards do things they don't want to do (like making a scoring point guard pass and a passing point guard score). Of course I have no evidence for this so my point is moot, but it is why I like his defense personally. I don't really care if his man dribbles by him a bunch of times in a game, though, because like you said it's not really important or even possible to stop in today's NBA.