Author Topic: Multiple superstars needed to win an NBA championship (article Elrod Enchilada)  (Read 10184 times)

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Online D.o.s.

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Finally, a little progress. You realize that something's worth mentioning if it "bucks the trend". Rondo having the kind of success that he did at a young age "bucks the trend". It's true that the joined the league on a "loaded team". The team that he carried to the ECF last year? Not so loaded. If you didn't figure that out before the Knicks series this year, you should have then. The part about truncating people's careers at 27 is to illustrate that few of them had the same amount of success by his age. The fact that he's accomplished what most of the list hadn't by his age makes that accomplishment noteworthy.

i'd say you're about 3 replies too late on your "finally". lol. i've been saying that bucks the trend line for a while now. how about you actually read a post first before replying to it? just a tip  ;)

  I commented enough on those posts. It's not my fault this didn't make it close enough to the top of the issues I saw.

and sadly no, last year, the Celtics got eliminated in the 1st round so what i'm assuming is you meant the 2012 playoffs. And sadly, the Celtics didn't "buck the trend" in the 2012 playoffs either.

  No, I'm talking about the right years. If Rondo was out in 2012 that team wouldn't have gone far because it wasn't "loaded".

The team was already beginning to decline from "contender" status, sure, but we were still pretty much loaded in 2012. Let's also not forget that our playoff chances GREATLY improved after the #1 seeded bulls lost Derrick Rose to injury and fell to the 8th seeded Sixers in the first round. I mean, honestly, which of these scenarios would have been the most remarkable:

a) 8th seeded Sixers, with Iggy as their best player, making it to the ECF
b) 1st seeded Bulls, despite losing their best player on the first game of the playoffs, making it to the ECF
c) Celtics at full strength with Rondo, PP, KG and RA making it to the ECF

  The Celtics weren't at "full strength". Green was out, Wilcox was out, Steimsma was playing through foot problems, Bradley's shoulders were popping out of socket a couple of times a series, Ray was gimping around on a bad ankle, PP was dealing with a sprained MCL. The only regulars besides Rondo that were healthy were KG and Bass.

And furthermore, you'd be greatly marginalizing PP and KG's contributions in the 2012 playoffs if you think they played only a small part in bringing the team to the 2012 ECF. Rondo played well, yes, but so did they. I highly urge you to look back at that Hawks series if you think otherwise. Do you think the C's would have made it to the ECF if they gave Green (assuming healthy) and Bass the minutes given to PP and KG? i doubt we would have even made the playoffs, let alone make it to the ECF.

  KG and PP were the 2nd and 3rd best players on those teams. I've been giving them the credit they deserve all along.
Tim is right that in 2012, Rondo was arguably the best player on a vastly overachieving Celtic team.  They had the 5th best record in the Eastern Conference that year.  6 teams in the Western Conference outperformed them.   We faced off against Atlanta in round 1... who struggled for most of the series without their best player.  We got handed a "gimme" in the 2nd round with Philly (who didn't even make the playoffs a year later).

You gotta put that into context.  Rondo being the 1st or 2nd best player on that team was ok. (I'd argue KG was more impactful in the playoffs... he was a complete beast and the focal-point of our defense... our defense being the foundation for any success we've had since 2007) ...

How impressive was that?  Well... within context, not that impressive.  I'd put it on a par with Antoine Walker or Paul Pierce in 2002.   In 2002, Boston had a better win percentage.  The Eastern conference was a complete joke.  We made it to the ECF vs the Nets.  We were up 2-1 in that series.   

Was that scrappy 49 win Boston team a legitimate contender in 2002?  Oh HECK NO.  Had that team lucked into the Finals, there was around 6 teams in the Western Conference that would have eaten them alive in the Finals.

So Rondo (arguably) leading the 11th best team in the league to a ECF appearance in 2012 is just about as impressive as Antoine Walker (arguably) leading the 8th best team in the league to an ECF appearance a decade earlier.  Just because 'Toine lead us to the 3rd round of the playoffs didn't mean he was on a par with Shaq, Kobe, Duncan and the real superstars of the NBA.  And even if you're saying it was Pierce who took that team to the ECF in 2002... big deal.  He didn't get anything accomplished until a legitimate superstar (Kevin Garnett) came to Boston and lead this team to a title. 

So the point stands... You aren't winning a title without multiple superstars.  And even if you consider Rondo a star, it's highly unlikely we'll win a title with him as the best player.  According to this article, there's only ONE instance of a "bronze level" star like Rondo leading a team to a title (the 1979 Sonics) and they had more than one.

I think the 2002 run was more fun, actually.
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Offline BballTim

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Finally, a little progress. You realize that something's worth mentioning if it "bucks the trend". Rondo having the kind of success that he did at a young age "bucks the trend". It's true that the joined the league on a "loaded team". The team that he carried to the ECF last year? Not so loaded. If you didn't figure that out before the Knicks series this year, you should have then. The part about truncating people's careers at 27 is to illustrate that few of them had the same amount of success by his age. The fact that he's accomplished what most of the list hadn't by his age makes that accomplishment noteworthy.

i'd say you're about 3 replies too late on your "finally". lol. i've been saying that bucks the trend line for a while now. how about you actually read a post first before replying to it? just a tip  ;)

  I commented enough on those posts. It's not my fault this didn't make it close enough to the top of the issues I saw.

and sadly no, last year, the Celtics got eliminated in the 1st round so what i'm assuming is you meant the 2012 playoffs. And sadly, the Celtics didn't "buck the trend" in the 2012 playoffs either.

  No, I'm talking about the right years. If Rondo was out in 2012 that team wouldn't have gone far because it wasn't "loaded".

The team was already beginning to decline from "contender" status, sure, but we were still pretty much loaded in 2012. Let's also not forget that our playoff chances GREATLY improved after the #1 seeded bulls lost Derrick Rose to injury and fell to the 8th seeded Sixers in the first round. I mean, honestly, which of these scenarios would have been the most remarkable:

a) 8th seeded Sixers, with Iggy as their best player, making it to the ECF
b) 1st seeded Bulls, despite losing their best player on the first game of the playoffs, making it to the ECF
c) Celtics at full strength with Rondo, PP, KG and RA making it to the ECF

  The Celtics weren't at "full strength". Green was out, Wilcox was out, Steimsma was playing through foot problems, Bradley's shoulders were popping out of socket a couple of times a series, Ray was gimping around on a bad ankle, PP was dealing with a sprained MCL. The only regulars besides Rondo that were healthy were KG and Bass.

And furthermore, you'd be greatly marginalizing PP and KG's contributions in the 2012 playoffs if you think they played only a small part in bringing the team to the 2012 ECF. Rondo played well, yes, but so did they. I highly urge you to look back at that Hawks series if you think otherwise. Do you think the C's would have made it to the ECF if they gave Green (assuming healthy) and Bass the minutes given to PP and KG? i doubt we would have even made the playoffs, let alone make it to the ECF.

  KG and PP were the 2nd and 3rd best players on those teams. I've been giving them the credit they deserve all along.
Tim is right that in 2012, Rondo was arguably the best player on a vastly overachieving Celtic team.

  Aside from all of your typical attempts to denigrate what Rondo did, I guess this means you realize how ridiculous your stance that Rondo was a distant third best player on the team behind KG and PP was.

So the point stands... You aren't winning a title without multiple superstars.  And even if you consider Rondo a star, it's highly unlikely we'll win a title with him as the best player.  According to this article, there's only ONE instance of a "bronze level" star like Rondo leading a team to a title (the 1979 Sonics) and they had more than one.

  I'd be fairly surprised if you could find a single post in the thread claiming anything that vaguely resembles "we can win a title if Rondo's our only star level player".

Offline LilRip

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  No, I'm talking about the right years. If Rondo was out in 2012 that team wouldn't have gone far because it wasn't "loaded".
it wouldn't have but if the reverse were true, Rondo wouldn't have gone far either without them.

I mean, honestly, which of these scenarios would have been the most remarkable:
a) 8th seeded Sixers, with Iggy as their best player, making it to the ECF
b) 1st seeded Bulls, despite losing their best player on the first game of the playoffs, making it to the ECF
c) Celtics at full strength with Rondo, PP, KG and RA making it to the ECF

  The Celtics weren't at "full strength". Green was out, Wilcox was out, Steimsma was playing through foot problems, Bradley's shoulders were popping out of socket a couple of times a series, Ray was gimping around on a bad ankle, PP was dealing with a sprained MCL. The only regulars besides Rondo that were healthy were KG and Bass.
[/quote]

so answer me, which of those scenarios would've been the least and most remarkable? I'd still say the Celtics were in a better state than the 8th seed sixers and the Rose-less Bulls.

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  KG and PP were the 2nd and 3rd best players on those teams. I've been giving them the credit they deserve all along.

and so you do agree that the team had multiple stars?

because it all stems back as to why Rondo having accomplished this at 27 is even relevant at all. the 2003 KG-scenario is a good example why it isn't relevant.

And picture this. Next year, Rondo will be 28 and in all likelihood, his postseason successes would've remained stagnant. The year after, Rondo will be 29 and unless the C's successfully makes an extremely fast rebuild, his postseason success will remain stagnant again. And then he'd be 30, and again, the rebuild to contender status might not yet be done. And so on and so forth.

So going back to your main point, if you then truncate the careers of players at age 30, then how many have achieved postseason success the way Rondo did? The list grows and grows. That's why postseason success by a certain age is not a relevant metric.

Rondo's postseason success is a product of how good his teams were and honestly, not many players have had the teammates Rondo has had so early in his career. Yes, he played a major role on them but that's why he's recognized as a star.

But for him being able to do well on a good team by age 27 is nothing special nor noteworthy for a star. Stick 27-yr old CP3 (who has never made a WCF) in that 2012 C's team and i guarantee we would be beating the 8th seeded sixers in a series too. Give Rose his MVP-health back, and the Bulls would've beaten us in the 2nd round.
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Offline BballTim

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But for him being able to do well on a good team by age 27 is nothing special nor noteworthy for a star. Stick 27-yr old CP3 (who has never made a WCF) in that 2012 C's team and i guarantee we would be beating the 8th seeded sixers in a series too. Give Rose his MVP-health back, and the Bulls would've beaten us in the 2nd round.

  Rondo was clearly playing better than CP3 in the 2012 playoffs. I'm not sure why you're so certain that trading Rondo's 17/7/12 for Paul's 18/5/8 would have made us play better. Maybe you're assuming he'd have tried harder or done better with a change of scenery?

  And *all* the teams in the east were banged up, including the Celts. If Rose came back and the Bulls were the only healthy team then they'd have won the East. Same with the Celts, same with the Heat. All the teams full strength, though, and we'd probably have been the team in the finals.

Online D.o.s.

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But for him being able to do well on a good team by age 27 is nothing special nor noteworthy for a star. Stick 27-yr old CP3 (who has never made a WCF) in that 2012 C's team and i guarantee we would be beating the 8th seeded sixers in a series too. Give Rose his MVP-health back, and the Bulls would've beaten us in the 2nd round.

  Rondo was clearly playing better than CP3 in the 2012 playoffs. I'm not sure why you're so certain that trading Rondo's 17/7/12 for Paul's 18/5/8 would have made us play better. Maybe you're assuming he'd have tried harder or done better with a change of scenery?

That's not what's being said at all.

He's saying that swapping Rondo for Paul (or Williams, or anyone else in that zipcode for PG) would've lead to the exact same results--namely an ECF appearance in 2012.

I'll go one step further and say that we could've beaten that Sixer's team with most of the young starting PG's that have yet to make an All-Star team--John Wall, Ty Lawson, Steph Curry, Brandon Jennings, etc. That was a seriously meh team that got gifted a second-round appearance by virtue of Derrick Rose's knee.
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Offline BballTim

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But for him being able to do well on a good team by age 27 is nothing special nor noteworthy for a star. Stick 27-yr old CP3 (who has never made a WCF) in that 2012 C's team and i guarantee we would be beating the 8th seeded sixers in a series too. Give Rose his MVP-health back, and the Bulls would've beaten us in the 2nd round.

  Rondo was clearly playing better than CP3 in the 2012 playoffs. I'm not sure why you're so certain that trading Rondo's 17/7/12 for Paul's 18/5/8 would have made us play better. Maybe you're assuming he'd have tried harder or done better with a change of scenery?

That's not what's being said at all.

He's saying that swapping Rondo for Paul (or Williams, or anyone else in that zipcode for PG) would've lead to the exact same results--namely an ECF appearance in 2012.

I'll go one step further and say that we could've beaten that Sixer's team with most of the young starting PG's that have yet to make an All-Star team--John Wall, Ty Lawson, Steph Curry, Brandon Jennings, etc. That was a seriously meh team that got gifted a second-round appearance by virtue of Derrick Rose's knee.

  I know exactly what he was saying. Yes, the Sixers weren't a great team. But we were *very* banged up. PP was shooting poorly because of his knee (40% from the field, 35% on threes), no sg scoring in double figures, no backup pf or c that would give you more than 2-3 ppg, and KG's offense would have been pretty close to the 2013 playoff version without Rondo (who assisted almost half of KG's baskets in the 2012 playoffs). Oh, and the Sixers were the 3rd best defense in the league. The thought that you'd be able to generate enough offense to beat that team with someone like Brandon Jennings or Ty Lawson is fairly laughable, and doing it with Wall or Curry isn't overly likely.

Online D.o.s.

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It's been a couple years since I've endured any of the games from that series, but to my memory, while he played well, it wasn't the singular performance of Rajon Rondo that held the key to beating that Sixers team.

I do remember lots of contested long twos and very long scoring droughts.
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Offline BballTim

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It's been a couple years since I've endured any of the games from that series, but to my memory, while he played well, it wasn't the singular performance of Rajon Rondo that held the key to beating that Sixers team.

I do remember lots of contested long twos and very long scoring droughts.

  Do you remember Rondo setting a record by having 13 or more assists in each of the first 5 games of the series? Maybe the Sixers coach talking after almost every game about needing to do a better job of defending Rondo?

 

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