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Opportunistic Pekovic Idea
« on: August 07, 2013, 01:39:23 AM »

Offline LatterDayCelticsfan

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Basically Hump and Crawford for Pekovic in a sign and trade for the 15 million a year his agent is demanding. Tear into, or build upon this as you see fit
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Re: Opportunistic Pekovic Idea
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2013, 01:45:40 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Basically Hump and Crawford for Pekovic in a sign and trade for the 15 million a year his agent is demanding. Tear into, or build upon this as you see fit

Well, Minnesota would need to see something they want. Hump's expiring contract isn't without value, but it's a far cry south of what Minny would want back.

We'd need to include multiple picks in the least, and I wouldn't be surprised if it included prospects too, and still we'd fall short. Pek is a franchise caliber center, not a central building block, but a top-10 positional player probably.

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Re: Opportunistic Pekovic Idea
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2013, 01:46:51 AM »

Offline Yogi

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1.  That's not opportunistic. 
2.  Timberwolves would rather just let him walk than pay 14 million for the rights of Crawford and Humphries.
3.  Pekovic is not worth more than 9-10 Mil a year, and any team that pays him more will handcuff themselves financially for the next several years.
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Re: Opportunistic Pekovic Idea
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2013, 01:49:27 AM »

Offline pearljammer10

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Terrible... Terrible in all caps idea for Minny. Why take on Humphries contract when they can just let Pek walk and save 15 mil and not have to worry about a bad player.

Pek at 15 mil a year here is a lot to handle. Not sure Id give him that kind of deal if I was a gm.

Re: Opportunistic Pekovic Idea
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2013, 02:04:08 AM »

Offline LatterDayCelticsfan

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Letting Pek walk is essentially 15 million cap space in an fished out free agency pond. Taking on Hump`s expiring, and the last year of Crawford`s rookie deal is pushing the cap space to a fresh batch of free agents next summer.
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Re: Opportunistic Pekovic Idea
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2013, 02:22:53 AM »

Offline Yogi

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Letting Pek walk is essentially 15 million cap space in an fished out free agency pond. Taking on Hump`s expiring, and the last year of Crawford`s rookie deal is pushing the cap space to a fresh batch of free agents next summer.

That is not how cap space works.  They would have the same amount of cap space in either scenario.  In fact, Hump and Crawford's huge cap holds will take away all cap space left unless they are waived, in which case the Timberwolves paid 14M for nothing. 
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Re: Opportunistic Pekovic Idea
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2013, 08:00:51 AM »

Offline Birdman

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i really like Pekovic but dont know bout 15 million  a yera
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ReDante Cunningham: Opportunistic Pekovic Idea
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2013, 08:20:21 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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While I think that Minny is very reluctant to go to $15 million, and should be given his injury problems, the package you put out there won't do it, and that is if Danny would pay Pek $15 million, which I am not sure about.

Looking at Minny's roster, they seem to have an over abundance of center/power forward types with

Derrick Williams
Kevin Love
Gorgui Dieng
Ronny Turiaf
Chris Johnson
Nikola Pekovic

They also have 3 small forwards in Buddinger, Brewer and Mohammed.

So if trading for Pekovic in a sign and trade the C's would probably have to give up a SG and a power forward and a prospect and picks.

I think the package would have to be Humphries(only because he's expiring and has a big contract), Sully or Olynyk, a 2014 1st rounder and a 2015 1st rounder for Pekovic and Turiaf.

And I am not sure I would want to do that trade, never mind whether Danny would.



« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 10:00:44 AM by nickagneta »

Re: Opportunistic Pekovic Idea
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2013, 08:29:06 AM »

Offline saltlover

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In addition to the many salient points other posters have made, it's extremely difficult to structure a sign-and-trade that actually fits under all the various salary cap rules AND pays Pekovic large sums of money.

Because Pek would be getting a raise in a sign-and-trade deal, he's subject to the base-year compensation rule.  This means that his outgoing salary is treated at only 50% of what he's getting paid for purposes of what Minnesota can take back in a trade.  (This is one reason Bogans is getting paid so much by us, since his salary only counted 50% for what the Nets could take back).  Meanwhile, we would need to send out enough salary to a) only take back 125% of what we were taking on and b) fit under the hard cap.

The most Pek can be paid this year is $13,701,250, per maximum salary rules, which is presumably what he's asking for.  This means that he would count as $6,850,625 worth of salary sent out.  In this case, Minny could only take back $10,275,938,  However, to take on $13,701,250, the Celtics would need to send out $10,881,000, so it won't work, unless the Celtics are also taking on and sending out additional players.  Also of note, we don't have anyone making those precise salary amounts.

Now, what does work salary wise is Pek+Cunningham for Humphries+Sullinger, as that leaves the C's a couple hundred thousand under the hard cap while meeting all the salary matching rules, but that trade can't happen until September 14th.  Humphries+Crawford sends Minny back too much salary, as does Hump+Bradley.  Pek+Barea allows Minny to take back more, but also means we're taking on more salary and run the risk of the hard cap.  Still, something like Pek+Barea for Hump+Crawford+Sully or Hump+Bradley+Sully works.

But we can't trade Humphries with other salaries for another 5 weeks, and he's the most logical player to make salaries sort of match (although Green+Bass+anyone on a rookie deal for Pek+Barea works).  Still, these deals now become pretty complex, and add an additional shooting/combo guard to our roster, and it just seems unlikely that there's anything that will make salaries match and make sense for both teams.  It's a topic to revisit on September 12th, or whenever it is we can trade Humphries, but probably not much earlier than that.

Also, base-year compensation is why Minny can hold pretty firm.  The only teams with cap room to sign him outright are Milwaukee and Philly, and if they wanted him he'd be signed by now.  Otherwise, for Minny to lose Pek it has to be a sign-and-trade, and those are going to be very complicated for any team to make salaries match and provide Minny with compensation worth having.  And if Pek chooses to not sign this year, Minny retains their right to match any offer he gets next year, but he no longer can leave via a sign-and-trade, so his leverage will go down.  If they don't reach an agreement by the end of camp, I'd expect Pek to sign his qualifying offer, play out the season, and test unrestricted free agency next year.  It's pretty unlikely Minnesota will make a desperate move in this situation, since Pek is the one with less leverage.

Re: Opportunistic Pekovic Idea
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2013, 09:46:08 AM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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In addition to the many salient points other posters have made, it's extremely difficult to structure a sign-and-trade that actually fits under all the various salary cap rules AND pays Pekovic large sums of money.

Because Pek would be getting a raise in a sign-and-trade deal, he's subject to the base-year compensation rule.  This means that his outgoing salary is treated at only 50% of what he's getting paid for purposes of what Minnesota can take back in a trade.  (This is one reason Bogans is getting paid so much by us, since his salary only counted 50% for what the Nets could take back).  Meanwhile, we would need to send out enough salary to a) only take back 125% of what we were taking on and b) fit under the hard cap.

The most Pek can be paid this year is $13,701,250, per maximum salary rules, which is presumably what he's asking for.  This means that he would count as $6,850,625 worth of salary sent out.  In this case, Minny could only take back $10,275,938,  However, to take on $13,701,250, the Celtics would need to send out $10,881,000, so it won't work, unless the Celtics are also taking on and sending out additional players.  Also of note, we don't have anyone making those precise salary amounts.

Now, what does work salary wise is Pek+Cunningham for Humphries+Sullinger, as that leaves the C's a couple hundred thousand under the hard cap while meeting all the salary matching rules, but that trade can't happen until September 14th.  Humphries+Crawford sends Minny back too much salary, as does Hump+Bradley.  Pek+Barea allows Minny to take back more, but also means we're taking on more salary and run the risk of the hard cap.  Still, something like Pek+Barea for Hump+Crawford+Sully or Hump+Bradley+Sully works.

But we can't trade Humphries with other salaries for another 5 weeks, and he's the most logical player to make salaries sort of match (although Green+Bass+anyone on a rookie deal for Pek+Barea works).  Still, these deals now become pretty complex, and add an additional shooting/combo guard to our roster, and it just seems unlikely that there's anything that will make salaries match and make sense for both teams.  It's a topic to revisit on September 12th, or whenever it is we can trade Humphries, but probably not much earlier than that.

Also, base-year compensation is why Minny can hold pretty firm.  The only teams with cap room to sign him outright are Milwaukee and Philly, and if they wanted him he'd be signed by now.  Otherwise, for Minny to lose Pek it has to be a sign-and-trade, and those are going to be very complicated for any team to make salaries match and provide Minny with compensation worth having.  And if Pek chooses to not sign this year, Minny retains their right to match any offer he gets next year, but he no longer can leave via a sign-and-trade, so his leverage will go down.  If they don't reach an agreement by the end of camp, I'd expect Pek to sign his qualifying offer, play out the season, and test unrestricted free agency next year.  It's pretty unlikely Minnesota will make a desperate move in this situation, since Pek is the one with less leverage.

great post salty. this helped me understand the situation, and its hideous complexity, quite well. thanks and a tp....if for nothing else than the use of the word "salient" on cb. :)
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Re: Opportunistic Pekovic Idea
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2013, 10:09:13 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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In addition to the many salient points other posters have made, it's extremely difficult to structure a sign-and-trade that actually fits under all the various salary cap rules AND pays Pekovic large sums of money.

Because Pek would be getting a raise in a sign-and-trade deal, he's subject to the base-year compensation rule.  This means that his outgoing salary is treated at only 50% of what he's getting paid for purposes of what Minnesota can take back in a trade.  (This is one reason Bogans is getting paid so much by us, since his salary only counted 50% for what the Nets could take back).  Meanwhile, we would need to send out enough salary to a) only take back 125% of what we were taking on and b) fit under the hard cap.

The most Pek can be paid this year is $13,701,250, per maximum salary rules, which is presumably what he's asking for.  This means that he would count as $6,850,625 worth of salary sent out.  In this case, Minny could only take back $10,275,938,  However, to take on $13,701,250, the Celtics would need to send out $10,881,000, so it won't work, unless the Celtics are also taking on and sending out additional players.  Also of note, we don't have anyone making those precise salary amounts.

Now, what does work salary wise is Pek+Cunningham for Humphries+Sullinger, as that leaves the C's a couple hundred thousand under the hard cap while meeting all the salary matching rules, but that trade can't happen until September 14th.  Humphries+Crawford sends Minny back too much salary, as does Hump+Bradley.  Pek+Barea allows Minny to take back more, but also means we're taking on more salary and run the risk of the hard cap.  Still, something like Pek+Barea for Hump+Crawford+Sully or Hump+Bradley+Sully works.

But we can't trade Humphries with other salaries for another 5 weeks, and he's the most logical player to make salaries sort of match (although Green+Bass+anyone on a rookie deal for Pek+Barea works).  Still, these deals now become pretty complex, and add an additional shooting/combo guard to our roster, and it just seems unlikely that there's anything that will make salaries match and make sense for both teams.  It's a topic to revisit on September 12th, or whenever it is we can trade Humphries, but probably not much earlier than that.

Also, base-year compensation is why Minny can hold pretty firm.  The only teams with cap room to sign him outright are Milwaukee and Philly, and if they wanted him he'd be signed by now.  Otherwise, for Minny to lose Pek it has to be a sign-and-trade, and those are going to be very complicated for any team to make salaries match and provide Minny with compensation worth having.  And if Pek chooses to not sign this year, Minny retains their right to match any offer he gets next year, but he no longer can leave via a sign-and-trade, so his leverage will go down.  If they don't reach an agreement by the end of camp, I'd expect Pek to sign his qualifying offer, play out the season, and test unrestricted free agency next year.  It's pretty unlikely Minnesota will make a desperate move in this situation, since Pek is the one with less leverage.
Actually under the new CBA, teams under the salary cap, which Minnesota is, are not subject to base year compensation restrictions.

Quote
87. What is "Base Year Compensation?" How does it affect trades?

Base Year Compensation (BYC) is mostly an artifact of previous collective bargaining agreements. Its intent was to prevent teams from signing free agents to new contracts with salaries specifically intended to help facilitate trades. BYC was triggered when a team was over the cap and re-signed a player using the Larry Bird or Early Bird exception with a raise over 20%. Once triggered, BYC temporarily lowered the player's salary for salary-matching purposes (only), and therefore reduced or eliminated teams' ability to target salaries for trade purposes.

The 2011 CBA mostly eliminated BYC -- in fact, the term "Base Year Compensation" was removed from the agreement entirely. The rules formerly known as BYC now apply under just one circumstance -- during sign-and-trade transactions (see question number 89). If a team is over the cap and re-signs its Larry Bird or Early Bird free agent with a raise greater than 20%, in order to trade the player in a sign-and-trade arrangement, then the player's outgoing salary for trade purposes is either his previous salary or 50% of his new salary, whichever is greater. The team receiving the player always uses his new salary.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q87

Re: Opportunistic Pekovic Idea
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2013, 10:31:15 AM »

Offline saltlover

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In addition to the many salient points other posters have made, it's extremely difficult to structure a sign-and-trade that actually fits under all the various salary cap rules AND pays Pekovic large sums of money.

Because Pek would be getting a raise in a sign-and-trade deal, he's subject to the base-year compensation rule.  This means that his outgoing salary is treated at only 50% of what he's getting paid for purposes of what Minnesota can take back in a trade.  (This is one reason Bogans is getting paid so much by us, since his salary only counted 50% for what the Nets could take back).  Meanwhile, we would need to send out enough salary to a) only take back 125% of what we were taking on and b) fit under the hard cap.

The most Pek can be paid this year is $13,701,250, per maximum salary rules, which is presumably what he's asking for.  This means that he would count as $6,850,625 worth of salary sent out.  In this case, Minny could only take back $10,275,938,  However, to take on $13,701,250, the Celtics would need to send out $10,881,000, so it won't work, unless the Celtics are also taking on and sending out additional players.  Also of note, we don't have anyone making those precise salary amounts.

Now, what does work salary wise is Pek+Cunningham for Humphries+Sullinger, as that leaves the C's a couple hundred thousand under the hard cap while meeting all the salary matching rules, but that trade can't happen until September 14th.  Humphries+Crawford sends Minny back too much salary, as does Hump+Bradley.  Pek+Barea allows Minny to take back more, but also means we're taking on more salary and run the risk of the hard cap.  Still, something like Pek+Barea for Hump+Crawford+Sully or Hump+Bradley+Sully works.

But we can't trade Humphries with other salaries for another 5 weeks, and he's the most logical player to make salaries sort of match (although Green+Bass+anyone on a rookie deal for Pek+Barea works).  Still, these deals now become pretty complex, and add an additional shooting/combo guard to our roster, and it just seems unlikely that there's anything that will make salaries match and make sense for both teams.  It's a topic to revisit on September 12th, or whenever it is we can trade Humphries, but probably not much earlier than that.

Also, base-year compensation is why Minny can hold pretty firm.  The only teams with cap room to sign him outright are Milwaukee and Philly, and if they wanted him he'd be signed by now.  Otherwise, for Minny to lose Pek it has to be a sign-and-trade, and those are going to be very complicated for any team to make salaries match and provide Minny with compensation worth having.  And if Pek chooses to not sign this year, Minny retains their right to match any offer he gets next year, but he no longer can leave via a sign-and-trade, so his leverage will go down.  If they don't reach an agreement by the end of camp, I'd expect Pek to sign his qualifying offer, play out the season, and test unrestricted free agency next year.  It's pretty unlikely Minnesota will make a desperate move in this situation, since Pek is the one with less leverage.
Actually under the new CBA, teams under the salary cap, which Minnesota is, are not subject to base year compensation restrictions.

Quote
87. What is "Base Year Compensation?" How does it affect trades?

Base Year Compensation (BYC) is mostly an artifact of previous collective bargaining agreements. Its intent was to prevent teams from signing free agents to new contracts with salaries specifically intended to help facilitate trades. BYC was triggered when a team was over the cap and re-signed a player using the Larry Bird or Early Bird exception with a raise over 20%. Once triggered, BYC temporarily lowered the player's salary for salary-matching purposes (only), and therefore reduced or eliminated teams' ability to target salaries for trade purposes.

The 2011 CBA mostly eliminated BYC -- in fact, the term "Base Year Compensation" was removed from the agreement entirely. The rules formerly known as BYC now apply under just one circumstance -- during sign-and-trade transactions (see question number 89). If a team is over the cap and re-signs its Larry Bird or Early Bird free agent with a raise greater than 20%, in order to trade the player in a sign-and-trade arrangement, then the player's outgoing salary for trade purposes is either his previous salary or 50% of his new salary, whichever is greater. The team receiving the player always uses his new salary.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q87

But if Minny resigns Pek, they will be over the salary cap, so wouldn't it apply?  That's how I read it before my long post.

To further clarify, they are:
1) S&T Pek
2) he will get a greater than 20% raise
3) they have bird rights
4) with his cap hold they are over the cap.  If they signed him to a contract they would be over the cap.  If they received $4 mil or more in salary they would be over the cap.  And they used their cap-room mid-level, implying they were over the cap.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 10:39:10 AM by saltlover »

Re: Opportunistic Pekovic Idea
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2013, 10:35:06 AM »

Offline Yogi

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But if Minny resigns Pek, they will be over the salary cap, so wouldn't it apply?  That's how I read it before my long post.

Pekovic has a cap hold, including which the Timberwolves are still under the cap. 
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Re: Opportunistic Pekovic Idea
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2013, 10:42:32 AM »

Offline saltlover

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But if Minny resigns Pek, they will be over the salary cap, so wouldn't it apply?  That's how I read it before my long post.

Pekovic has a cap hold, including which the Timberwolves are still under the cap.

According to shamsports, including Pek's hold they are at $63,794,750, about $5 million over the $58.7 mil cap.

Re: Opportunistic Pekovic Idea
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2013, 10:51:57 AM »

Offline Yogi

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But if Minny resigns Pek, they will be over the salary cap, so wouldn't it apply?  That's how I read it before my long post.

Pekovic has a cap hold, including which the Timberwolves are still under the cap.

According to shamsports, including Pek's hold they are at $63,794,750, about $5 million over the $58.7 mil cap.

That's correct, I was mistaken.  They are over 3M under the cap without the cap hold for Pek.  Shamsports uses a different number (190%) than the QO as a cap hold.  I am not sure which number is correct.  I don't know if his cap hold comes into play if they are signing and trading him though.
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