Author Topic: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank  (Read 7709 times)

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Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2013, 03:31:17 AM »

Offline bfrombleacher

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Barely making the playoffs with a team chock full of young players who are not close to maxing out their potential, with a favorable cap situation and a nice inventory of extra draft picks for the future?

That sounds better than finishing with the 5th worst record because all those young players look like crap who shouldn't be in any team's long-term plans.

Did Pierce look like crap in 2007? What about Al Jefferson? Delonte? TA? Rondo?


Exactly. I remember many people being upset that Big Al was traded for KG. Rondo hadn't done anything significant yet but many were already excited for him. and TA, well, I was a fan of TA and he was performing quite well. If only that deadball dunk-fail injury didn't happen.

Losing doesn't mean the young players look bad. They just won't win because they're young, inexperienced players who have room to grow.

Rondo hadn't done anything significant :(

Now we're comparing Rondo to Al Jefferson?

What has CP3 done? Where do people draw the line? Is it because CP3 has better press?

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #46 on: July 20, 2013, 03:37:28 AM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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Barely making the playoffs with a team chock full of young players who are not close to maxing out their potential, with a favorable cap situation and a nice inventory of extra draft picks for the future?

That sounds better than finishing with the 5th worst record because all those young players look like crap who shouldn't be in any team's long-term plans.

Did Pierce look like crap in 2007? What about Al Jefferson? Delonte? TA? Rondo?


Exactly. I remember many people being upset that Big Al was traded for KG. Rondo hadn't done anything significant yet but many were already excited for him. and TA, well, I was a fan of TA and he was performing quite well. If only that deadball dunk-fail injury didn't happen.

Losing doesn't mean the young players look bad. They just won't win because they're young, inexperienced players who have room to grow.

Rondo hadn't done anything significant :(

Now we're comparing Rondo to Al Jefferson?

What has CP3 done? Where do people draw the line? Is it because CP3 has better press?

He's referring to 2006-07. He had not done anything significant at that point but showed us promise.

Many "experts" thought he and Perk were the reason we couldn't win it all in 2007-08.
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Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #47 on: July 20, 2013, 03:40:40 AM »

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Barely making the playoffs with a team chock full of young players who are not close to maxing out their potential, with a favorable cap situation and a nice inventory of extra draft picks for the future?

That sounds better than finishing with the 5th worst record because all those young players look like crap who shouldn't be in any team's long-term plans.

Did Pierce look like crap in 2007? What about Al Jefferson? Delonte? TA? Rondo?


Exactly. I remember many people being upset that Big Al was traded for KG. Rondo hadn't done anything significant yet but many were already excited for him. and TA, well, I was a fan of TA and he was performing quite well. If only that deadball dunk-fail injury didn't happen.

Losing doesn't mean the young players look bad. They just won't win because they're young, inexperienced players who have room to grow.

Rondo hadn't done anything significant :(

Now we're comparing Rondo to Al Jefferson?

What has CP3 done? Where do people draw the line? Is it because CP3 has better press?

He's referring to 2006-07. He had not done anything significant at that point but showed us promise.

Many "experts" thought he and Perk were the reason we couldn't win it all in 2007-08.


trading Perk effected this team...Ray Charles could see this team moral was not the same as when he was here..chemistry was all jacked up

no expert needed

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #48 on: July 20, 2013, 03:49:01 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Barely making the playoffs with a team chock full of young players who are not close to maxing out their potential, with a favorable cap situation and a nice inventory of extra draft picks for the future?

That sounds better than finishing with the 5th worst record because all those young players look like crap who shouldn't be in any team's long-term plans.

Did Pierce look like crap in 2007? What about Al Jefferson? Delonte? TA? Rondo?


Exactly. I remember many people being upset that Big Al was traded for KG. Rondo hadn't done anything significant yet but many were already excited for him. and TA, well, I was a fan of TA and he was performing quite well. If only that deadball dunk-fail injury didn't happen.

Losing doesn't mean the young players look bad. They just won't win because they're young, inexperienced players who have room to grow.

Rondo hadn't done anything significant :(

Now we're comparing Rondo to Al Jefferson?

What has CP3 done? Where do people draw the line? Is it because CP3 has better press?

He's referring to 2006-07. He had not done anything significant at that point but showed us promise.

Many "experts" thought he and Perk were the reason we couldn't win it all in 2007-08.


trading Perk effected this team...Ray Charles could see this team moral was not the same as when he was here..chemistry was all jacked up

no expert needed

I've also always believed this.

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Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #49 on: July 20, 2013, 09:40:30 AM »

Offline JBcat

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I disagree with the OP in a big way.

Last season the worst team in the NBA was the Orlando Magic and they got the 2nd pick. The 1st pick went to the Cavs with a record of 24-58. Here are some comparisons:

Cav's were without Irving for 23 games. When he did come back his minutes were limited. I expect this to be better or equal to what we'll see from Rondo's recovery. That is, I expect him to miss more than 23 games.

The Cavs had a pretty mediocre team outside of Irving last year. However, Waiters is a good player that you could compare to Green as far as his #s and minutes.

Thompson had a great season averaging close to 12/10. This is what I expect from Sully/KO. If they split minutes probably 7/7 from each. If they play along side each other probably 8/6 each.

We're going to trade Humphries. I'd hope that we could do it in the preseason but who knows. I'd put money on him being gone by the deadline though. $12M expiring is nothing to waste. Ditto for Bogans. I expect Danny to take on another bad contract or two this year. If he's really on top of it he'll move Hump and Bogans for a larger worse contract and at least once 1st rounder.

Wallace I expect to be waived via the stretch provision.

Bass/AB/Brooks/Melo etc won't contribute a ton to us winning or losing.

Ok now let's take the #3 picking team, the Washington Wizards.

John Wall played in 49 games, or 60% of the season. This is about what I expect from Rondo. He averaged 18/8/4 in 33 mpg. Also what I expect from Rondo.

Beal was their second best player last season and his #s are almost exactly Jeff Green's. It's eerie.

Then Nene, 12/7. KO is probably going to have these #s if he gets the minutes.

Okafor got 10/9. That's Sully.

Ariza was actually better than AB but they play similar roles. Hustle guys who can defend really well and score when they get a good opportunity.

What I'm getting at is that we're a lotto team. Not as bad as Orlando was (and will be) but still very bad. The teams in the east that will rival us for the worst are Charlotte, Philly, Atlanta and Orlando. Phoenix and Utah out west (maybe LAL too). I expect a top-10 pick and I suspect a top-5 pick. Anything in the top-10 will be valuable in trades and top-5 is worth one failed season for sure.

I agree with much of this however I don't see Ainge using using the stretch provision on Wallace.   It will still count against the cap a little bit, and within 2 years that contract could be very valuable.   Plus we need a backup behind Green, and who knows maybe Crash revitalizes his career little bit playing less minutes as a bench player. 

I would say at least Humphries is gone by the trade deadline as an expiring, and maybe putting out decent numbers again.   

This year could be more of a player evaluation year for Danny as we have so many unanswered questions.  How well will Rondo be playing coming back from a major surgery?  Ditto for Sully.  How will Green do for the first time being the the starting SF and most likely the number 1 scoring option?  Will Bradley take the next step after a summer not worrying about rehab?  and so on. 

Starting next offseason I could see many more trades then as you see Bass become an expiring contract, Bogans contract become unguaranteed, Bradley and Crawford restricted free agents, 2 years remaining on Lee's and Wallace's contract. Rondo will also be an expiring contract & Green will have 2 years left but his last year will be a player's option.   Also with the trade exception, and 2 draft picks, I could see several moving parts starting next summer.  Should be interesting, and I don't think we need to tank for us to have a really good offseason next year.

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #50 on: July 20, 2013, 12:43:53 PM »

Offline gpap

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This isn't the 1980's fellas where a deep draft meant that any pick in the first round had a very good chance at being a starter or better. At BEST there are going to be 10 guys in a deep draft that are going to be starter level players or better. That doesn't mean it will be the first 10, however your chances of getting a star past the first 3-4 spots is not real likely anymore with the one and done college attendance. Having two mid-late first round picks likely means you are going to end up with two bench players.

I am not saying that the answer is 100 percent we need to tank. I am saying I think the odds are better if next season we get a top 5 pick. Realistically only Wiggins and Parker are players IMO that are can't miss players. What I am saying is that if Rondo and Green are both on the roster, we are likely picking outside the top 10, but almost certainly outside the top 5. (Unless the ping pong balls fall our way like the Spurs with Duncan) You will know what Danny thinks based on them playing next season.

I agree with this as well. If you're going to rebuild through the draft, as might as well do it with lottery picks.

To me, a draft pick between the 15-30th pick is almost useless. There isn't as much talent coming out of college like their used to be.

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #51 on: July 20, 2013, 01:01:12 PM »

Offline TheTruthFot18

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As constructed, we're a 20-25 win team.  We have a very unbalanced roster with major holes and key pieces in their development phase.  In addition to the talent deficit and poor fit of the roster, there are the inevitable interregnum problems that will accompany a transition as radical as we face this upcoming season.

That number sounds about right. Ya we'll have Green AND Rondo but that team won't score a lot and will get picked on down low (Sully can't play 48 minutes and replicate KG).
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Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #52 on: July 20, 2013, 01:34:57 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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I love how everyone on this board thinks Rondo is one of the top few players in this league and a walking triple double, however can't be enough of a difference to us to have us win more than 20 games. Add Green to that who averaged 13 pts a game in only 28 minutes a game and put up 15 per in March and 17 per in April showing he was recovering and getting better as the season went, but no this team with those two guys are only going to win 20 games... LOL

That's not even mentioning Wallace and Humphries who are starter level players in this league, and Bass who is a legitimate strong bench player and borderline starter.

Wake up people! The only reason that people can kind of argue that we SHOULDN'T tank and instead find a few pieces to fit around Rondo and Green is because those two are good enough with the rest of the guys we have to actually win 30-35 games. Personally I don't see Rondo as good as many on here, or at least the guy I want to build my team around, but he is an all star level player. Same with Jeff Green once he is back completely  100%. If I thought we had a shot at signing ONE top tier free agent I'd say let's do it. We don't however, and so the draft is our only shot. That is if we can draft in the top 5...

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #53 on: July 20, 2013, 01:35:20 PM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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This isn't the 1980's fellas where a deep draft meant that any pick in the first round had a very good chance at being a starter or better. At BEST there are going to be 10 guys in a deep draft that are going to be starter level players or better. That doesn't mean it will be the first 10, however your chances of getting a star past the first 3-4 spots is not real likely anymore with the one and done college attendance. Having two mid-late first round picks likely means you are going to end up with two bench players.

I am not saying that the answer is 100 percent we need to tank. I am saying I think the odds are better if next season we get a top 5 pick. Realistically only Wiggins and Parker are players IMO that are can't miss players. What I am saying is that if Rondo and Green are both on the roster, we are likely picking outside the top 10, but almost certainly outside the top 5. (Unless the ping pong balls fall our way like the Spurs with Duncan) You will know what Danny thinks based on them playing next season.

I agree with this as well. If you're going to rebuild through the draft, as might as well do it with lottery picks.

To me, a draft pick between the 15-30th pick is almost useless. There isn't as much talent coming out of college like their used to be.

I respectfully disagree.

You only build through the lottery when you start from scratch. We already have a big piece in Rondo and if he proves himself to be a very good player, we'll have another one in Green. We can rebuild by keeping those two and add another piece, don't matter if this addition would be the main cog or another large part of the puzzle.

We also have a plethora of assets in the form of picks, young players who's potential is high and an expiring contract in Kris Humphries, and to some extent Cap room. Assets we can put together in order to acquire the said piece.

And yes, agree in the sense that the last two years we're a weak draft class but remember, names like...

Marc Gasol (2nd round!)
Wilson Chandler
Carl Landry
Roy Hibbert
Ryan Anderson
Serge Ibaka
Nicolas Batum
Ty Lawson
Jrue Holiday
Larry Sanders
Avery Bradley
Greives Vasquez
Kawhi Leonard
Nikola Vicevic
Kenneth Faried

...were drafted in that 15-30 range. And while not all of them turned into franchise players, they could be a big addition as a piece or as another asset we can use to land a Superstar. (Wilson Chandler was part of a package to land Melo Anthony, remember).

You only trade for the lottery when only have one star on a big contract and your team has no support or direction moving forward you have practically nothing, like the Bobcats. Gutting the team with a solid two player foundation and assets on hand to hope for a lottery pick is WAY too risky. Let's remember here as well, not every lottery pick turned out to be great.

Derrick Williams, Evan Turner, Michael Beasley, Hasheem Thabeet we're all #2 picks who turned out not to be franchise players. And then you have names like Jonny Flynn, Yi Jianlian, JOE ALEXANDER, Jordan Hill, Wesley Johnson, Ekpe Udoh, Bismack Biyombo who are top 10 picks but turned out to be nothing.

And while it's exciting to think that we can land a franchise player in the lottery, we can also have a Hasheem Thabeet, we can't rule that out. Now imagine Andrew Wiggins and Jabari Parker as your centerpiece without Rondo and Green? Sounds nice right. Now imagine Thabeet as your centerpiece without Rondo and Green? That's the risk we are taking if we trade Rondo and Green just so we land a lottery pick.
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Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #54 on: July 20, 2013, 01:52:03 PM »

Offline rondoallaturca

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I still don't understand why anyone would want to full-out tank by trading Rondo.

This is a solid, solid draft. Some players viewed as potential fantasy cornerstones aren't even going in the top 5 in some mock drafts I've seen. One that I read had Gordon at #9. With so many high-upside players, it's inevitable that a legitimate talent will fall into 5-10, where Boston will likely be drafting. Considering Ainge's drafting talents, I'm not worried at all about not having a top 5 pick.

I mean, that's like having the Warriors move up to get Tyreke in 2009 even though they had Curry three picks later. Nothing is certain in the lottery, but what is certain is that talent doesn't suddenly go off a cliff after the first five picks. It's just incredibly foolish to trade a proven NBA star - and arguably one of the best PGs in the league - just to move up a couple spots in a deep draft.

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #55 on: July 20, 2013, 02:05:36 PM »

Offline More Banners

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I still don't understand why anyone would want to full-out tank by trading Rondo.

This is a solid, solid draft. Some players viewed as potential fantasy cornerstones aren't even going in the top 5 in some mock drafts I've seen. One that I read had Gordon at #9. With so many high-upside players, it's inevitable that a legitimate talent will fall into 5-10, where Boston will likely be drafting. Considering Ainge's drafting talents, I'm not worried at all about not having a top 5 pick.

I mean, that's like having the Warriors move up to get Tyreke in 2009 even though they had Curry three picks later. Nothing is certain in the lottery, but what is certain is that talent doesn't suddenly go off a cliff after the first five picks. It's just incredibly foolish to trade a proven NBA star - and arguably one of the best PGs in the league - just to move up a couple spots in a deep draft.

Me either.

Starting AS PG on the team, plus a nice 20ppg guy in Green (pretty sure on that).

We should be looking to build on this, not rebuild.

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #56 on: July 20, 2013, 02:15:21 PM »

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I do think Rondo and Green have star potential not superstar but star there is a difference.   But we also had trouble scoring with PP and KG in the 4th and I think these guys will struggle as well.

I too am of the mindset you keep Green and Rondo.   I would be willing to deal Humphries, Wallace ( no one would want him) , Bass and possibly Bradley ( I love his D hate his PG skills and shooting skills).

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #57 on: July 20, 2013, 02:45:13 PM »

Offline gpap

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I love how everyone on this board thinks Rondo is one of the top few players in this league and a walking triple double, however can't be enough of a difference to us to have us win more than 20 games. Add Green to that who averaged 13 pts a game in only 28 minutes a game and put up 15 per in March and 17 per in April showing he was recovering and getting better as the season went, but no this team with those two guys are only going to win 20 games... LOL

That's not even mentioning Wallace and Humphries who are starter level players in this league, and Bass who is a legitimate strong bench player and borderline starter.

Wake up people! The only reason that people can kind of argue that we SHOULDN'T tank and instead find a few pieces to fit around Rondo and Green is because those two are good enough with the rest of the guys we have to actually win 30-35 games. Personally I don't see Rondo as good as many on here, or at least the guy I want to build my team around, but he is an all star level player. Same with Jeff Green once he is back completely  100%. If I thought we had a shot at signing ONE top tier free agent I'd say let's do it. We don't however, and so the draft is our only shot. That is if we can draft in the top 5...

I'd hate to agree with you again, but there you go (lol!!)

I think when it comes to Rondo, there's two trains of thought.

Some fans think he's a franchise player you can build around, where others don't.

I fall in the category where I just don't think he's a franchise player.

Sorry, but I don't look at him as a guy you can build around. Now could he be a key piece to a contending team? Yes. But I just find too many imperfections in his game to be a "go to guy." (ie....can't knock down consistent jumper, frequent turn overs, attitude issues, passes up too many shots, etc.)

I am off the belief that if the Celts can add a guy like Kevin Love or Lamarcus Aldridge, then perfect. A Rondo-Bradley-Green-insert name (Love, Aldridge) could be a VERY good core.

However, with just Rondo and Green, I don't see it.

If you could deal Rondo (and Green) now and get some value for the long term, you'd have to do it.

I believe we should do this right. Either add star players to Rondo and contend, or tear it down completely, jettison Rondo, Green and whoever else and start from scratch.

To me, a team of Rondo/Green/Bradley/Olynk/Sully is the worse thing possible. Not good enough to be a championship team, not bad enough to be a lottery pick.

I keep going back to Detroit. A deal involving Rondo being swapped for either Monroe or Drummond would be perfect. I'd rather build around a big guy than a point guard.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 03:01:13 PM by gpap »

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #58 on: July 20, 2013, 02:49:01 PM »

Offline rondoallaturca

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I'd hate to agree with you again, but there you go (lol!!)

I think when it comes to Rondo, there's two trains of thought.

Some fans think he's a franchise player you can build around, where others don't.

I fall in the category where I just don't think he's a franchise player.

Sorry, but I don't look at him as a guy you can build around. Now could he be a key piece to a contending team? Yes. But I just find too many imperfections in his game to be a "go to guy." (ie....can't knock down consistent jumper, frequent turn overs, attitude issues, passes up too many shots, etc.)

I am off the belief that if the Celts can add a guy like Kevin Love or Lamarcus Aldridge, then perfect. A Rondo-Bradley-Green-insert name (Love, Aldridge) could be a VERY good core.

However, with just Rondo and Green, I don't see it.

If you could deal Rondo (and Green) now and get some value for the long term, you'd have to do it.

I believe we should do this right. Either add star players to Rondo and contend, or tear it down completely, jettison Rondo, Green and whoever else and start from scratch.

To me, a team of Rondo/Green/Bradley/Olynk/Sully is the worse thing possible. Not good enough to be a championship, not bad enough to be a lottery pick.

I go keep going back to Detroit. A deal involving Rondo being swapped for either Monroe or Drummond would be perfect. I'd rather build around a big guy than a point guard.

...?

Obviously if Rondo is kept, Boston is adding stars around him. I mean, not even Lebron could succeed as a one man wrecking crew.

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #59 on: July 20, 2013, 03:16:12 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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I think when it comes to Rondo, there's two trains of thought.

Some fans think he's a franchise player you can build around, where others don't.

I fall in the category where I just don't think he's a franchise player.

I'd like the Celtics to use this season to definitively prove which one is correct.
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