Author Topic: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank  (Read 15116 times)

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Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2013, 03:53:11 PM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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Why do we need to tank?

First of all there's no guarantee that we can win the lottery even if we have a bad record (ask the Bobcats).

There's also no guarantee that Wiggins and Parker are the next great superstars. Remember Harrison Barnes, LeBryan Nash and Shabazz Muhammad? They have the same hype as these two coming out of high school and they got exposed in college. Not saying Parker and Wiggins will be the same but can't we wait and see first if they are worth the hype? Are we even sure that they are coming out? I mean, Marcus Smart is a top 5 projected and stayed didn't he? Cauley-Stein also has some lottery hype and he stayed.

We don't need to tank to compete in the future. We have two 1st rounders in a supposed loaded draft this year. We may not land a superstar, but we can land TWO solid players if this draft is a good as it is advertised. Outside of the the hyped names, we still don't know if there are other college players who will stand out next season (like Olynyk). Assuming that the hyped freshmen comes out, there are still high potential talents left in this draft that could help franchises. Guys who may not be superstar but has the talent and skills to be starter quality.

Tanking is no guarantee to land a franchise level talent. But it's a definite guarantee that it will hinder any sort of player development, players we already have that we could have showcase and show the world that can play. Players who then we can trade along with our picks to acquire this Superstar we want.

I don't mind losing, we don't have a great roster to compete anyway even with Rondo and Green. But we need to try and compete. It builds character, it develops the talent we have and build a strong chemistry among teammates and coaches.

On purposely trying to suck though? That's a great moral lesson to teach your young players. "You're not good enough so don't try hard and let's hope we get the CHANCE of landing the superstar that will lead you guys."

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Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2013, 04:56:57 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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This isn't the 1980's fellas where a deep draft meant that any pick in the first round had a very good chance at being a starter or better. At BEST there are going to be 10 guys in a deep draft that are going to be starter level players or better. That doesn't mean it will be the first 10, however your chances of getting a star past the first 3-4 spots is not real likely anymore with the one and done college attendance. Having two mid-late first round picks likely means you are going to end up with two bench players.

I am not saying that the answer is 100 percent we need to tank. I am saying I think the odds are better if next season we get a top 5 pick. Realistically only Wiggins and Parker are players IMO that are can't miss players. What I am saying is that if Rondo and Green are both on the roster, we are likely picking outside the top 10, but almost certainly outside the top 5. (Unless the ping pong balls fall our way like the Spurs with Duncan) You will know what Danny thinks based on them playing next season.

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2013, 05:00:37 PM »

Offline lightspeed5

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This isn't the 1980's fellas where a deep draft meant that any pick in the first round had a very good chance at being a starter or better. At BEST there are going to be 10 guys in a deep draft that are going to be starter level players or better. That doesn't mean it will be the first 10, however your chances of getting a star past the first 3-4 spots is not real likely anymore with the one and done college attendance. Having two mid-late first round picks likely means you are going to end up with two bench players.

I am not saying that the answer is 100 percent we need to tank. I am saying I think the odds are better if next season we get a top 5 pick. Realistically only Wiggins and Parker are players IMO that are can't miss players. What I am saying is that if Rondo and Green are both on the roster, we are likely picking outside the top 10, but almost certainly outside the top 5. (Unless the ping pong balls fall our way like the Spurs with Duncan) You will know what Danny thinks based on them playing next season.
TP. People around here still think you can pick up Larry Bird Jr. at pick 16.

however, i think with a gimp rondo and green we can still tank.

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2013, 05:18:31 PM »

Offline BballTim

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This isn't the 1980's fellas where a deep draft meant that any pick in the first round had a very good chance at being a starter or better. At BEST there are going to be 10 guys in a deep draft that are going to be starter level players or better. That doesn't mean it will be the first 10, however your chances of getting a star past the first 3-4 spots is not real likely anymore with the one and done college attendance. Having two mid-late first round picks likely means you are going to end up with two bench players.

I am not saying that the answer is 100 percent we need to tank. I am saying I think the odds are better if next season we get a top 5 pick. Realistically only Wiggins and Parker are players IMO that are can't miss players. What I am saying is that if Rondo and Green are both on the roster, we are likely picking outside the top 10, but almost certainly outside the top 5. (Unless the ping pong balls fall our way like the Spurs with Duncan) You will know what Danny thinks based on them playing next season.
TP. People around here still think you can pick up Larry Bird Jr. at pick 16.

  Other people think that if we have a bad record this year we'll be rewarded with a LeBron clone.

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2013, 06:32:29 PM »

Offline relja

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How about trying to win as many games as possible and maybe, just maybe make the playoff because we have an okay core and we are the Boston Celtics? If you want to tank so badly and trade our 2 stars, become a Bobcats fan.
When you lose, the easy part is to see who gives up. Giving up is very simple. You basically take your stuff and walk away. To continue to work and to continue to compete is one of the most difficult things, especially when you really don't have anything - KG

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2013, 10:19:28 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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How about trying to win as many games as possible and maybe, just maybe make the playoff because we have an okay core and we are the Boston Celtics? If you want to tank so badly and trade our 2 stars, become a Bobcats fan.

There is a difference between throwing together a team with mediocre talent that at its very best might make the playoffs, but has absolutely no possibility of ever having pieces that would be part of a championship team, and getting rid of the best of that group for chips that could net you true cornerstone franchise changing players. I am not a proponent of going out there and intentionally trying to lose games. I AM however a proponent of adding chips with a Rondo trade and possibly green and seeing which of these young pieces have a shot at being true pieces to a winner.

What you are proposing then is rushing Rondo back sooner than needed, playing AB, Lee, Wallace, Bass/Humphries, and trying to win as many games as possible. Those are the best players on this squad. That is what you'd have to do in order to win as much as possible.

I'd like instead to trade Rondo for another 1st rounder plus a legitimate 2 that is actually the size of a 2. Play Sullinger, Olynyk, Brooks, Pressey, and Green enough to see if they can be a piece to the puzzle. By the time we are actually contenders, Rondo will be at the end of his deal and most likely on another squad anyway. I don't envision Rondo still being here when we are truly back in contention, so we might as well get something for him that can be. With those players, we THEN try as hard as we can to win. Playing the other group will result in barely missing the playoffs, and forever limbo.

I think people forget that if we had done it your way, we never would have gotten Larry...

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2013, 11:20:18 PM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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How about trying to win as many games as possible and maybe, just maybe make the playoff because we have an okay core and we are the Boston Celtics? If you want to tank so badly and trade our 2 stars, become a Bobcats fan.

So you would prefer a replay of the 2003-04 season (won 36 games, squeezed into playoffs, and got embarrassed) over the 2006-07 season (had a terrible season resulting in the 5th pick that ultimately landed us an MVP candidate)?

If we get the 5th pick in next year's loaded draft, you really don't think we could flip that and some assets/expirings for another great player (such as DMC, Aldridge, Love, etc)? And if we have Rondo, Green, and another great player, I believe we may still have enough money (depending on how much salary we send out/take on in the draft pick trade) to sign a max free agent (or one close to max). That means the pick could ultimately land us two all-stars, much like 2007 did.

The key back then was landing the draft pick, and the same holds true next year. A top-5 pick changes this franchise one way or or another.

Barely making the playoffs and getting the 15th pick sets our team back even further. Forget about pride right now, we need better players and a loaded draft awaits us next year. We probably still don't have Banner 17 if Pierce doesn't get hurt and the wheels fall off and we squeak into playoffs in 2007. I'm a diehard Celtics fan but I could not want to see them in the playoffs any less than I do next year.
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Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2013, 11:54:02 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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Barely making the playoffs with a team chock full of young players who are not close to maxing out their potential, with a favorable cap situation and a nice inventory of extra draft picks for the future?

That sounds better than finishing with the 5th worst record because all those young players look like crap who shouldn't be in any team's long-term plans.
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Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2013, 11:59:06 PM »

Offline gpap

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I agree with the OP. I am not saying Rondo and Jeff Green are Lebron and Durant.

But, in a lackluster Eastern Conference, believe it or not Rondo/Jeff Green could get you to the 8th seed.

Hell, Milwaukee was last year's 8th seed and they had a losing record.

I think if we rolled with the team as constituted, we are a 35 win basketball team (possibly a 40 win team if we pick up a decent center...ie Asik, Perk, etc.)

If you look at the roster, even though it's rather uneven and unbalanced (a ton of SGs and PFs, but no C), it just isn't bad enough to be a lottery team.

Philly, Orlando, Toronto, Utah, Phoenix are all worse than us and the jury is still out on teams like Denver, Minnesota, Cleveland, Sacramento, Washington and even Detroit for that matter.

That's why IF the goal is to tank, then a trade with Detroit involving Rondo makes too much sense.

If the goal isn't to tank, then I think Rondo and Green are likely still on the team.


Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2013, 12:59:14 AM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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Barely making the playoffs with a team chock full of young players who are not close to maxing out their potential, with a favorable cap situation and a nice inventory of extra draft picks for the future?

That sounds better than finishing with the 5th worst record because all those young players look like crap who shouldn't be in any team's long-term plans.

Did Pierce look like crap in 2007? What about Al Jefferson? Delonte? TA? Rondo?

The fact is that in the last 30 Finals, only 3 teams made it without a top 14 pick as their first- or second-best player. The 1999 Knicks and the 2004 and 2005 Pistons. 57 out of 60 needed the lottery (or equivalent in Drexler and '92 Blazers case) to get the player that would lead them atop their Conference.

Unless you think Kelly Olynyk will become a star (as he is the only lottery pick on our team) and lead us into the Finals, odds are we will most certainly need the lottery.


Do people really think hovering around .500 for a few years and all of a sudden you are going to become a contender? 95% of Finalists since the draft has used a lottery system have drafted their star in the top 14, the majority of those are in the top 5. But the Celtics do not need to? Please.

The funniest part is there is a potentially historic draft class staring us in the face next year.
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Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2013, 01:13:28 AM »

Offline LooseCannon

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Do people really think hovering around .500 for a few years and all of a sudden you are going to become a contender? 95% of Finalists since the draft has used a lottery system have drafted their star in the top 14, the majority of those are in the top 5. But the Celtics do not need to? Please.

If the Celtics absolutely needed to draft their star in the top 14, then that number would be 100% of finalists, not 95%.

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Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2013, 02:15:05 AM »

Offline LilRip

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Barely making the playoffs with a team chock full of young players who are not close to maxing out their potential, with a favorable cap situation and a nice inventory of extra draft picks for the future?

That sounds better than finishing with the 5th worst record because all those young players look like crap who shouldn't be in any team's long-term plans.

Did Pierce look like crap in 2007? What about Al Jefferson? Delonte? TA? Rondo?


Exactly. I remember many people being upset that Big Al was traded for KG. Rondo hadn't done anything significant yet but many were already excited for him. and TA, well, I was a fan of TA and he was performing quite well. If only that deadball dunk-fail injury didn't happen.

Losing doesn't mean the young players look bad. They just won't win because they're young, inexperienced players who have room to grow.
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Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2013, 02:52:18 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Fully healthy this team will struggle to even play .500 basketball.  They had KG and Pierce on this team last year and only won 41 games. 

It will be hard to completely bottom out if Rondo and Green are playing at a high level, but we should have no trouble toiling away in the lotto.

Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2013, 03:19:14 AM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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Do people really think hovering around .500 for a few years and all of a sudden you are going to become a contender? 95% of Finalists since the draft has used a lottery system have drafted their star in the top 14, the majority of those are in the top 5. But the Celtics do not need to? Please.

If the Celtics absolutely needed to draft their star in the top 14, then that number would be 100% of finalists, not 95%.

I like 19 out of 20 odds. You either like long shots or are grasping.

Do they absolutely need to? Of course not. They will just join 27 other teams watching the Finals on television for the next decade.

They are not turning into a contender without not only a lotto pick, but getting the pick right. This draft, there seems to be so much talent at the top that there is wiggle room that DA doesn't have to nail it to get a great player.

The worse the draft (and the worse the pick... Like those Brooklyn ones are bound to be), the more you need to do a little less Fab Melo and JJJ and a lot more Rondo and TA.

Sometimes Ainge hits. Sometimes he misses. I have no doubt we walk away with legit talent if we secure a top 5 (maybe even top 8) pick in the 2014 draft. All bets are off after that.
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Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
« Reply #44 on: July 20, 2013, 03:30:25 AM »

Offline BASS_THUMPER

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maybe because i have been a fan a lot longer than most of you..and im sure that many here have been fans before me..but for ME..after the Bird era..we struggled..and that was fine because along the way it was glimpses of hope..im a huge Dino Radja fan..Rick Fox is someone i thought would be around for a long time.

in Other Words like Frank..i see tanking as a sign of weakness and if i lived in Boston i wouldnt want to pay my hard earned dolla to see my favorite team lose on purpose..if this team wants to tank in the right way?..sign me up as starting point for 5mil a year..man this team would go down like the Titanic.

but i cant call it..