Marc Stein: "hearing rumblings Celtics looking to act quickly on Rondo trade"

[Celtics Insider]

From another thread I posted this in:

I think we'd be smart to trade Rondo now. As someone who has torn his ACL numerous times, I can safely say that it never feels the same anymore, even if you make a "full" recovery, and there will always be slight hesitation, no matter how small, that will limit you in some form or another (again, no matter how small). For Rondo, this could effect his agility on defense, or him driving to the hoop, or even making quick passes where he turns his body quickly.

Also, it has a VERY high re-injury rate. I don't remember the numbers my surgeons were telling me, but I think it was somewhere around 80%. In addition, it is VERY easy to get muscle imbalances from the physical therapy (ironically making your weak leg stronger than your strong one), which can lead to you favoring one side and tearing your OTHER ACL.

Basically, one ACL tear can ruin an entire career. It offset mine a good 4 years, and I had world-class surgeons working on me (one of which was a surgeon for the Miami Heat players).

[DoverCeltic]

Not sure I believe your MD on those stats applying to professional athletes. Maybe your average person, but not professional athletes. Most of these athletes find the BEST doctors to do the surgery, then the BEST recovery centers, and make sure they avoid these kinds of things.

I do agree with the time is now statement. If Rondo this year shows that he truly only was good because of the former big 3, then his value plummets drastically, and then we lose out

[Celtics Insider]

Not sure I believe your MD on those stats applying to professional athletes. Maybe your average person, but not professional athletes. Most of these athletes find the BEST doctors to do the surgery, then the BEST recovery centers, and make sure they avoid these kinds of things.

I do agree with the time is now statement. If Rondo this year shows that he truly only was good because of the former big 3, then his value plummets drastically, and then we lose out

That could just be bad memory, since I don't remember the exact number. But it is still a high re-injury rate, even with the very best surgeons and PTs.

Anyone who has ever fully torn their ACL and had reconstructive surgery knows that it's never the same, even if you "fully" recover.

It's hard to explain to people who have never gone through it. If you work hard, you can come back from it strong, but your knee will still never feel normal.

[European NBA fan]

We have only one player left from the Championship team. None of the other guys knows what it means to be a champion and how you get there. We need veterans with the young guys, and Rondo is the vet now.

[ssspence]

no it won't

Let's say you're an NBA GM. You're telling me that for the same money, you would rather pay Jrue Holiday to play for your team rather than Rajon Rondo?

Yes... both are all-star point guards.   One is 23 years old without a torn ACL.  The other is 27 years old with a torn ACL, serious flaws in his offensive game and a frequently reported attitude problem.

  One's led a team on multiple deep playoff runs. The other hasn't. And the one with "serious flaws in his offensive game" has much more of a positive impact on his team's offense than the other guy. That's more important than you realize.

I'm sorry Tim but are we supposed to draw some sort of meaning for this post? Rondo didn't 'lead' a team with Garnett, Pierce and Allen on it -- he followed. And in many cases, watched, due to his ridiculous inability to shoot a basketball from the charity stripe.

  The meaning might be that it's not 2008 any more, and Rondo's not following the big three any more. Just like is hasn't been true since 2008  that "Rondo, in many cases, watched". Unless by "in many cases, watched" you mean "played more minutes a game than anyone else on the team".

Look, Rondo's an excellent player, but making him better because he was lucky enough to land on the Celtics in the right place at the right time is of course a pile of horse hair. Fact is the guy is decidedly better than Holliday at some things, an decided worse at others.

  LeBron's decidedly better than Ray at some things, decidedly worse than Ray at others. That doesn't in any way imply that they're equal, just like Rondo and Holliday aren't equal (although the LeBron/Ray gap is clearly much wider). It's true Rondo was lucky to have KG/PP/RA on his team, it's also true that he's been our best player for quite some time.

Rondo has had a far better cast to support his greatest asset -- passing -- for every single day of his career than Holliday has had. Holliday is a far better shooter from almost anywhere on the floor than Rondo, and in my opinion is a better (and certainly more consistent) defender than Rondo. There's also the matter of the fact that Holliday is much younger, and currently has two healthy knees. The point: suggesting Rondo's trade value is much higher than Holliday's -- especially considering the pretty impressive haul Philly just achieved for him -- is a big time reach. If Ainge could get two lottery picks for Rondo, he'd high five Wyc and fill out the paperwork ASAP.

Btw, you know as well as I do that Rondo has spent a lot of time on the bench in 4th Qs of key games because he can't shoot, regardless of how many minutes he's played in the first 3 Qs. Or the opening minutes of OTs. Not exactly franchise player material.

[BballTim]

I do agree with the time is now statement. If Rondo this year shows that he truly only was good because of the former big 3, then his value plummets drastically, and then we lose out

  So do you think this is true because Rondo's numbers got worse without Ray in the lineup, or because his numbers have been steadily declining since PP's and KG's play on offense has declined?

[BballTim]

no it won't

Let's say you're an NBA GM. You're telling me that for the same money, you would rather pay Jrue Holiday to play for your team rather than Rajon Rondo?

Yes... both are all-star point guards.   One is 23 years old without a torn ACL.  The other is 27 years old with a torn ACL, serious flaws in his offensive game and a frequently reported attitude problem.

  One's led a team on multiple deep playoff runs. The other hasn't. And the one with "serious flaws in his offensive game" has much more of a positive impact on his team's offense than the other guy. That's more important than you realize.

I'm sorry Tim but are we supposed to draw some sort of meaning for this post? Rondo didn't 'lead' a team with Garnett, Pierce and Allen on it -- he followed. And in many cases, watched, due to his ridiculous inability to shoot a basketball from the charity stripe.

  The meaning might be that it's not 2008 any more, and Rondo's not following the big three any more. Just like is hasn't been true since 2008  that "Rondo, in many cases, watched". Unless by "in many cases, watched" you mean "played more minutes a game than anyone else on the team".

Look, Rondo's an excellent player, but making him better because he was lucky enough to land on the Celtics in the right place at the right time is of course a pile of horse hair. Fact is the guy is decidedly better than Holliday at some things, an decided worse at others.

  LeBron's decidedly better than Ray at some things, decidedly worse than Ray at others. That doesn't in any way imply that they're equal, just like Rondo and Holliday aren't equal (although the LeBron/Ray gap is clearly much wider). It's true Rondo was lucky to have KG/PP/RA on his team, it's also true that he's been our best player for quite some time.

Rondo has had a far better cast to support his greatest asset -- passing -- for every single day of his career than Holliday has had. Holliday is a far better shooter from almost anywhere on the floor than Rondo, and in my opinion is a better (and certainly more consistent) defender than Rondo. There's also the matter of the fact that Holliday is much younger, and currently has two healthy knees. The point: suggesting Rondo's trade value is much higher than Holliday's -- especially considering the pretty impressive haul Philly just achieved for him -- is a big time reach. If Ainge could get two lottery picks for Rondo, he'd high five Wyc and fill out the paperwork ASAP.

  I'm not talking about trade value I'm talking about who's a better player. Rondo clearly is.

Btw, you know as well as I do that Rondo has spent a lot of time on the bench in 4th Qs of key games because he can't shoot, regardless of how many minutes he's played in the first 3 Qs. Or the opening minutes of OTs. Not exactly franchise player material.

  This is absolutely, positively false. Check out Rondo's clutch time statistics on 82games (they list percentage of clutch minutes played), and you'll be able to see quite easily that he's played virtually every clutch minute of every game he's been available for since at least 2009. Again, this flat out hasn't happened since 2008.

[Vermont Green]

We now have a couple of data points to gauge the value of Rondo around the league.  There was the Chris Paul trade and now this.  I believe that GMs around the league do view Holiday as more valuable than Rondo.  More talent overall and more upside.  Plus, I recall Holiday having his way against Rondo/Celtics and always looking really good.

We aren't going to get two lottery picks for Rondo like Phili got for Holiday but Rondo can still be a key piece for a winning team.  I doubt a rebuilding team would want to have Rondo as a building block but maybe if a team has several good young pieces in place and would look for Rondo to pull things together.

I am all for trading Rondo as  I think we can get enough for him to make it a win.

[BballTim]

We now have a couple of data points to gauge the value of Rondo around the league.  There was the Chris Paul trade and now this.  I believe that GMs around the league do view Holiday as more valuable than Rondo.  More talent overall and more upside.  Plus, I recall Holiday having his way against Rondo/Celtics and always looking really good.

We aren't going to get two lottery picks for Rondo like Phili got for Holiday but Rondo can still be a key piece for a winning team.  I doubt a rebuilding team would want to have Rondo as a building block but maybe if a team has several good young pieces in place and would look for Rondo to pull things together.

I am all for trading Rondo as  I think we can get enough for him to make it a win.

  How is some guy from espn hearing a rumor that the Celts might trade Rondo a "data point"? Exactly what information would you glean from such "data"?

[bleedGREENdon]

I do agree with the time is now statement. If Rondo this year shows that he truly only was good because of the former big 3, then his value plummets drastically, and then we lose out

  So do you think this is true because Rondo's numbers got worse without Ray in the lineup, or because his numbers have been steadily declining since PP's and KG's play on offense has declined?

Lol last time i checked this past year when he played the whole first half of the season he lead the league in triple doubles( still leads the league in triple doubles and didnt play second half of the season), was having a career year in RBG which means he was picking up the slack for our terrible rebounding team and was working hard on every possession. He was also scoring 13 ppg and was having his best shooting % year. If he didnt get hurt we would have probably been in the ECF again, and gave the heat a run for the money once again. We are not trading rondo, he is our future, he can clearly work on his jump shot and was already drastically improved on his jump shot, rondo can score, he just chose to differ to 3 hall of gamers the past 4 years and still averaged 10ppg if rondo took 5-10 more shots a game he could possibly average close to 16 a game with ease. Why trade rondo for a draft pick when we have 9 OF THEM ALREADY, why trade him and have no GUARENTEE of a lottery pick, who said we are getting #1 overall pick if we trade him, the most we would have is a 50% chance at getting #1 pick ill take the 80% chance rondo comes back healthy and has a career year. Build around rondo, these assets we have just received from the nets, use to acquire josh smith and al Jeff or dwight Howard, and watch Jeff Green blossom. Id take my chances on seeing Jeff Green become our true number 1 option, hes shown he can drop 40 in a game. AGAINST THE MIAMI HEAT , AGAINST LEBRON JAMES OR SHANE BATTIER WHOCH EVER WAS COVERING HIM BOTH GREAT DEFENDERS, Jeff Green is For real and rajon rondo arguably is top 3 PG in the league.

Case closed.

[bobbyv]

Are we still talking about Rondo only being good because of "3 HOFers"? I thought we were past that. Look at 2012 playoffs and tell me how PP and Ray Allen were doing. Quick hint, they weren't playing at a hall of fame level.