Author Topic: It seems Boston has all the leverage  (Read 4284 times)

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Re: It seems Boston has all the leverage
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2013, 07:06:22 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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The problem with the OP's idea is that it is predicated on the false pretense that we could use the money saved from KG and PP leaving to go after a free agent, which is unfortunately not true. Check it:
http://www.celticsblog.com/2013/2/14/3988242/cap-questions-could-josh-smith-replace-kg-and-pierce

Basically we would be stuck with our current roster and enough money to make some minor moves, but nothing like the max deals of Josh Smith or Big Al you suggest (its possible, but HIGHLY unlikely and wouldn't benefit us long-term).

If we want to tank hardcore then yeah that probably does it, but thats an awful strategy.

Too many people have the wrong idea about what we could potentially do if KG and PP retire.

thanks for the link. a very interesting article. the most interesting part was the "stretch" payments allowed by a waiver. if ainge really wants to make changes and pick up free agents, then shedding the salaries of bass and terry, or both, are possible.

a point not mentioned in the article was whether bass could be amnestied. i am not sure on that one.
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Re: It seems Boston has all the leverage
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2013, 07:08:06 PM »

Offline kgainez

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i feel like the idea here is that KG and PP are going to retire.
says who? not this year

and if you're trying to rebuild, you want to get something for something.
i dont think i understand the argument here

Re: It seems Boston has all the leverage
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2013, 07:14:58 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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Great post, TP.

1. We bring Sully & Rondo back healthy, Pierce and KG play another season. With Green coming on, I say we're a top four team in the east , second round in the playoffs, or with a little luck ECF's - long shot at the finals.

But overall a competitive, entertaining team.

2. If KG retires and Doc walks, the rebuilding is on - we're probably a lottery team next year in a "loaded" draft.

The Clippers?

Personally, assuming that Pierce being bought out and signed with the mid level with the clips is the wink wink -  if I was them I would be all over a KG, Lee, Terry for Jordan, Bledsoe and Butler deal and I'd throw in the two picks as well. Zero hesitation. Zero.

KG / free agent center (5-6 mil) / Chris Wilcox
Blake Griffin / Lamar odom
Pierce / Barnes
Lee / Jamaal Crawford / Willie Green
Chris Paul / Jason terry / Chancey Billups     

Jordan is up in two years anyway. KG will have a "huge" impact on the interior defense of that team.

Bledsoe, really LA? With Chris Paul playing 38 minutes, you need a decent back up vet point (Terry, Billups will do fine.

KG and Pierce & Doc coaching  give about 300% great chances to win a title than Jordan, Bledsoe and a couple rookie draft picks do.

You reload when KG and Pierce retire.

If I'm Boston, I lay my deal on the table and other than maybe moving a draft pick back, I don't budge. Pierce and KG can retire next year, I'll use the cap.

We have all the leverage - the Clippers have way more to lose than we do.

Re: It seems Boston has all the leverage
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2013, 07:19:02 PM »

Offline kgainez

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Great post, TP.

1. We bring Sully & Rondo back healthy, Pierce and KG play another season. With Green coming on, I say we're a top four team in the east , second round in the playoffs, or with a little luck ECF's - long shot at the finals.

But overall a competitive, entertaining team.

2. If KG retires and Doc walks, the rebuilding is on - we're probably a lottery team next year in a "loaded" draft.

The Clippers?

Personally, assuming that Pierce being bought out and signed with the mid level with the clips is the wink wink -  if I was them I would be all over a KG, Lee, Terry for Jordan, Bledsoe and Butler deal and I'd throw in the two picks as well. Zero hesitation. Zero.

KG / free agent center (5-6 mil) / Chris Wilcox
Blake Griffin / Lamar odom
Pierce / Barnes
Lee / Jamaal Crawford / Willie Green
Chris Paul / Jason terry / Chancey Billups     

Jordan is up in two years anyway. KG will have a "huge" impact on the interior defense of that team.

Bledsoe, really LA? With Chris Paul playing 38 minutes, you need a decent back up vet point (Terry, Billups will do fine.

KG and Pierce & Doc coaching  give about 300% great chances to win a title than Jordan, Bledsoe and a couple rookie draft picks do.

You reload when KG and Pierce retire.

If I'm Boston, I lay my deal on the table and other than maybe moving a draft pick back, I don't budge. Pierce and KG can retire next year, I'll use the cap.

We have all the leverage - the Clippers have way more to lose than we do.

Doc isn't coaching this unit (with KG and PP) to the ship with his current game plan.

The problem with Doc and KG and PP and, in turn, the Celtics basketball club as of late is that we're still living in the big 3 area. Which includes a dominant PG, jump shots, no offensive rebounds, small ball, and Ray Allen.

Unless Doc wants to change all this, bring PP off the bench, I don't think we have a chance at another run. And I'm pretty positive Doc isn't going to change his game plan.

Re: It seems Boston has all the leverage
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2013, 07:21:15 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
If we make the trade, we wont be in the lottery next season..we still be better than Orlando, Charlotte, Detroit, Toronto, Washington, Cleveland, 76'ers, Atlanta

That is why the right coach is very important.  I would have Docs put Sully and Rondo on ice until the damage was done if we are tanking.

Re: It seems Boston has all the leverage
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2013, 07:42:10 PM »

Offline slamdunk

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tp

Re: It seems Boston has all the leverage
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2013, 08:09:21 PM »

Offline chambers

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The leverage holder is ultimately Chris Paul. Having KG next to him (and Doc to an extent) guarantees he signs with LAC again. Those two bring Pierce. Does this mean the Celtics have the leverage? Probably. It depends how bad CP3 is campaigning for KG and Doc to come.

The point for us is that getting Bledsoe and Jordan means we can let them run with Rondo and Green and make them look better than they really are.
We are still a horrid team but Jordan turns into a 10 point 10 rebound guy, getting gifts from Rondo all night. Bledsoe on the floor while Rondo recovers gives him some shine and the ability to run with Green and Bradley (we can even start him as a combo guard). I think he's overrated but that's a league wide opinion that his upside is enormous for some reason..they call him 'mini Lebron' lol.

I don't think Danny wants to win. He wants to replicate 2006 except Rondo is this year's Pierce.
He wants to move Doc because he doesn't want to pay him 7 million a year and he wants to get as bad as possible.
His goal is Wiggins or Parker.
Like the Spurs when Robinson went down. Mini tank. Win 25 games or less. Build value in our scrubs like Jordan and Bradley and Blesdoe.
Bink a top 3 pick. If not, we'll get a nice asset like Jeff Green in 2006 leading to a crapload of assets and capspace when the 2015 free agency class come in.
Who's a free agent then?

Kevin Love
Aldridge
Klay Thompson
Steph Curry
Marc Gasol
That's 2 seasons from now...

We can still suck without Jordan, Bledsoe and 2 firsts but they are fantastic assets in any rebuilding/ future trade value.
Take a shot at Wiggins and Parker. If we get lucky we bink one. If not we have assets, cap space and Rondo desperate to field a winning team as he comes up for contract negotiations.
I think we'd have to move Bass and Terry aswell if KG and Pierce retired. Still not enough cap room. This is why he's going after Wiggins. He's not putting Smith and Rondo as our future to keep Rondo happy. He'd rather burn Rondo and ensure we get a top 3 pick, which is what he may do still.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 08:14:45 PM by chambers »
Danny Ainge tried to get CP3 & David West to add to KG, Pierce and Ray Allen. Just Imagine if the stars had aligned...

Re: It seems Boston has all the leverage
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2013, 08:30:47 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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None of us know what LAC is thinking but I don't think Chris Paul is going to make his decision based on KG and Doc.  Based on rumors, he wants Dwight Howard.

Does anyone really think that if CP3's choices are stay in LA with KG and Doc or go to say Houston with Dwight, that he stays?  Or in the reverse, if LAC can pull off a deal to get Dwight (likely involving Griffin), do you think CP3 would still leave because they didn't get KG and Doc?

This only works if LAC can get Howard to keep CP3.  If not, they have no need for an expensive coach and an injury prone veteran.  I guess option 3 for CP3 could be stay with Griffin, KG and Doc but I gotta think that is at least his 3rd choice, certainly not his first.

Re: It seems Boston has all the leverage
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2013, 08:35:20 PM »

Offline CelticConcourse

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We don't have all the leverage. Trades are mutual.
Jeff Green - Top 5 SF

[Kevin Garnett]
"I've always said J. Green is going to be one of the best players to ever play this game"

Re: It seems Boston has all the leverage
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2013, 08:35:47 PM »

Offline chambers

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None of us know what LAC is thinking but I don't think Chris Paul is going to make his decision based on KG and Doc.  Based on rumors, he wants Dwight Howard.

Does anyone really think that if CP3's choices are stay in LA with KG and Doc or go to say Houston with Dwight, that he stays?  Or in the reverse, if LAC can pull off a deal to get Dwight (likely involving Griffin), do you think CP3 would still leave because they didn't get KG and Doc?

This only works if LAC can get Howard to keep CP3.  If not, they have no need for an expensive coach and an injury prone veteran.  I guess option 3 for CP3 could be stay with Griffin, KG and Doc but I gotta think that is at least his 3rd choice, certainly not his first.

The league wide thought is that the Lakers would never give the Clippers Dwight Howard unless Griffin is involved.
The Clippers could realistically have CP3, Pierce, KG and Howard + Doc.
This would be Paul's first choice. Second would be going to Houston with Harden/Howard. (In my opinion).
Danny Ainge tried to get CP3 & David West to add to KG, Pierce and Ray Allen. Just Imagine if the stars had aligned...

Re: It seems Boston has all the leverage
« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2013, 08:42:04 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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None of us know what LAC is thinking but I don't think Chris Paul is going to make his decision based on KG and Doc.  Based on rumors, he wants Dwight Howard.

Does anyone really think that if CP3's choices are stay in LA with KG and Doc or go to say Houston with Dwight, that he stays?  Or in the reverse, if LAC can pull off a deal to get Dwight (likely involving Griffin), do you think CP3 would still leave because they didn't get KG and Doc?

This only works if LAC can get Howard to keep CP3.  If not, they have no need for an expensive coach and an injury prone veteran.  I guess option 3 for CP3 could be stay with Griffin, KG and Doc but I gotta think that is at least his 3rd choice, certainly not his first.

The league wide thought is that the Lakers would never give the Clippers Dwight Howard unless Griffin is involved.
The Clippers could realistically have CP3, Pierce, KG and Howard + Doc.
This would be Paul's first choice. Second would be going to Houston with Harden/Howard. (In my opinion).
Realistically?  Hmm, I am not so sure.  First of all, those 4 players probably cost you close to $55M.  Even if this is a possiblity, my point is more about priority.  Priority 1 would likely be Howard, not KG and Doc.

Re: It seems Boston has all the leverage
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2013, 08:45:11 PM »

Offline #1P4P

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We do have leverage, but neither team has the leverage. This isn't the Carmelo Anthony-Denver Nuggets situation or the Nets-Portland situation (Gerald Wallace for NJ's lottery pick (that turned out to be the 5th pick in Damien Lillard)). Chris Paul has been rumored to be staying with the Clippers by pretty much every notable reporter except for the Paul-Howard uniting rumblings.

For the Clippers: KG and Doc make them a serious title contender for the 2013-14 and possibly 2014-15 season (if KG maintains his current level of play and doesn't retire), but to give up Bledsoe and/or an extra 1st leaves them vulnerable as soon as KG retires.

For the Celtics: DeAndre Jordan and this year's 1st are valuable assets, but it's not enough to make us serious contenders this year or the next (as we would be if it stayed as is). Jordan is limited, but he's 24, is one of the best athlete's and very durable for his size and position, has already proven he can average 8 PPG, 8 RPG, and 2 BPG, he's improving on offense and defense, and you'll get 3 years and the bird rights to him instead of 0-2 years of KG. Even if you don't think he'll improve, he's an asset that can get a return that KG can't. The 1st is also an asset that can in combination with another asset can get the team an established player.

Jordan, a 2013 1st, and a future 1st round pick for KG and Doc should be enough to pull the trigger. The maneuverability of those assets and the ones we already have can field a serious title contender.

Taking a look at their roster, I can see why they're looking to keep Bledsoe and the 1st and I understand the predicament, but I want one or the other in inclusion with Jordan and the 2013 1st or other options have to be looked at even if the other option is to leave it as is.

Re: It seems Boston has all the leverage
« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2013, 09:20:38 PM »

Offline BballTim

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There shouldn't be any pressure for Boston to make a move.  We have Doc, KG and Pierce under contract.  They can either play here next season (a lot of fans would be happy with that)... or they can all retire and we can use the 14 mil in cap space to sign someone like Big Al or Smith... or just hang onto it for next season.

There should be considerable pressure for the Clippers, though.  There is no guarantee that Chris Paul resigns.  He could go to Dallas.  He could go to Houston.  He could go to Atlanta.  One or two small tweaks to a roster like Dallas and both he and Dwight could join a team together.  Meanwhile, Chris apparently doesn't like playing with Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan.  He clashes with them frequently.  And they currently don't even have a coach.   The pressure is all on the Clippers... Chris apparently is the one driving for them to bring in Doc and KG (and Pierce).  Chris is apparently the reason the Clippers are interested in trading Griffin and Bledsoe for Howard.  ALL the pressure is on the Clippers.  They should be desperate to do anything they need to convince Chris Paul to resign with them.  Boston doesn't have to do squat.  WE can hang onto our guys or they can retire.  Either way, we good.   If the Clippers don't do something drastic, THEY are the one who stands to lose in a big way (if Chris flees).

Also... I'll say it again.  If Chris Paul is that desperate to be coached by Doc Rivers and play with KG and Pierce... if I'm Danny Ainge I call the CLippers and say, "Hey... since our trade fell apart and you guys might lose Chris for nothing.  I just want to let you know that we're willing to trade you Rajon Rondo if you can convince Chris to agree to a sign-and-trade with Boston.  I figured you'd guys rather have Rondo (broken ACL and all) than get stuck with nothing.  Lemme know.  All my love - Danny"

  I agree with much of this. The Celts lose out on a couple of decent(ish) assets but the Clips lose out on a better chance to bolster their title hopes than they might get for a while.

Re: It seems Boston has all the leverage
« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2013, 09:28:03 PM »

Offline gpap

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I don't think the Celts have much leverage at all.

Remember, other teams might like KG and Doc, but they're not exactly willing to give up an arm and a leg for them.

KG is old and Doc is not exactly this NBA messiah that many make him out to be.

Re: It seems Boston has all the leverage
« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2013, 05:55:07 AM »

Offline bfrombleacher

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Great post, TP.

1. We bring Sully & Rondo back healthy, Pierce and KG play another season. With Green coming on, I say we're a top four team in the east , second round in the playoffs, or with a little luck ECF's - long shot at the finals.

But overall a competitive, entertaining team.

2. If KG retires and Doc walks, the rebuilding is on - we're probably a lottery team next year in a "loaded" draft.

The Clippers?

Personally, assuming that Pierce being bought out and signed with the mid level with the clips is the wink wink -  if I was them I would be all over a KG, Lee, Terry for Jordan, Bledsoe and Butler deal and I'd throw in the two picks as well. Zero hesitation. Zero.

KG / free agent center (5-6 mil) / Chris Wilcox
Blake Griffin / Lamar odom
Pierce / Barnes
Lee / Jamaal Crawford / Willie Green
Chris Paul / Jason terry / Chancey Billups     

Jordan is up in two years anyway. KG will have a "huge" impact on the interior defense of that team.

Bledsoe, really LA? With Chris Paul playing 38 minutes, you need a decent back up vet point (Terry, Billups will do fine.

KG and Pierce & Doc coaching  give about 300% great chances to win a title than Jordan, Bledsoe and a couple rookie draft picks do.

You reload when KG and Pierce retire.

If I'm Boston, I lay my deal on the table and other than maybe moving a draft pick back, I don't budge. Pierce and KG can retire next year, I'll use the cap.

We have all the leverage - the Clippers have way more to lose than we do.


Either way, we're tanking for Wiggins.  Either way, we're trying to lose games next year in an effort to jump-start this franchise with a top 5 pick in 2014.  But the idea of Doc, KG and Pierce just "walking away" actually sounds somewhat appealing.   In that theoretical scenario, you'd actually only have Rondo 12 mil, Green 9 mil, Bass 6.4 mil, Lee 5.2 mil, Terry 5.2 mil, Bradley 2.5 mil, 16th pick 1.6 mil, Crawford 2 mil = about 44 million dollars.  With a cap set at 58 million... doesn't that mean we'd actually theoretically have cap space to offer Josh Smith or Big Al?


Yup to both.

The Clippers are foolish to nix this deal solely because of Bledsoe.

They are being handed a championship at the very, very least. They increase their chances of keeping Chris Paul, which should be on top of their list. The odds of getting Dwight Howard increase significantly.

To repeat what was said by the quoted, Ainge backs off then...SO WHAT?...
1. KG and Pierce do not retire. Run it back without Doc. KG/Pierce retire in Boston in 2 (?) years.
2. KG and Pierce retire. Boom.

The opportunity cost of a potential dynasty for the Clippers vs. Boston's cost of delaying the inevitable is what we're looking at here. Boston has very little to lose. DeAndre Jordan and two firsts are a small piece that will help in the massive project of rebuilding but not steer the process.

 

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