Author Topic: The Spurs show we should run it back  (Read 23754 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2013, 11:41:12 AM »

Offline winsomme

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6058
  • Tommy Points: 255
Tony Parker    =    Rajon Rondo
Danny Green   =   Courtney Lee
Manu Ginobili  <  Paul Pierce
Tiago Splitter  >  Brandon Bass
Tim Duncan   =   Kevin Garnett
Kawhi Leonard = Jeff Green
Gary Neal    <     Jason Terry
Boris Diaw    <    Jared Sullinger
Matt Bonner   >   ? Insert Player

Thing is, Pop gets all his players to contribute. Can we?

and don't forget I accidentally left out Avery Bradley. I think with a few changes there is no reason the Cs can't be Title contenders for the next two years and THEN rebuild.

Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2013, 11:42:38 AM »

Offline winsomme

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6058
  • Tommy Points: 255
this is so ridiculous
the comparisons between splitter, leonard and diaw are awful, for one.
smh

and manu right now is better than an aging paul pierce
and it's tough to argue kg being better than or equal to tim duncan.

the grizzlies, pacers, warriors, bulls are an example of how we should move on.

Manu is actually older than Pierce and has showed his age much much more over the last couple seasons.

Definitely agree here. If I could take Manu or Paul straight up I would definitely take Pierce. By a lot actually.

Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2013, 11:45:44 AM »

Offline winsomme

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6058
  • Tommy Points: 255
It's actually the fiscally responsible thing to do as well. This team is VERY popular. To break it up doesn't make sense money-wise.

Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2013, 11:47:56 AM »

Offline kgainez

  • NCE
  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1126
  • Tommy Points: 54
this is so ridiculous
the comparisons between splitter, leonard and diaw are awful, for one.
smh

and manu right now is better than an aging paul pierce
and it's tough to argue kg being better than or equal to tim duncan.

the grizzlies, pacers, warriors, bulls are an example of how we should move on.

Manu is actually older than Pierce and has showed his age much much more over the last couple seasons.

that's fine.
manu is still better than paul

Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2013, 11:50:33 AM »

Offline winsomme

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6058
  • Tommy Points: 255
this is so ridiculous
the comparisons between splitter, leonard and diaw are awful, for one.
smh

and manu right now is better than an aging paul pierce
and it's tough to argue kg being better than or equal to tim duncan.

the grizzlies, pacers, warriors, bulls are an example of how we should move on.

Manu is actually older than Pierce and has showed his age much much more over the last couple seasons.

that's fine.
manu is still better than paul

Another of the Spurs-Cs debates that could go on forever...

Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2013, 11:52:37 AM »

Offline Boris Badenov

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5227
  • Tommy Points: 1065
I think the Spurs are showing in this postseason why Danny absolutely should be bringing back PP and Garnett. The "age factor" which has seemed like overriding factor going into this off season for the Cs in terms of how decisions should be made has never been the biggest factor for me and is even less so after seeing this run by the San Antonio Spurs.

Look at the main parts of the rosters:

Tony Parker        Rondo
Danny Green      Courney Lee
Manu Ginobili    Paul Pierce
Tiago Splitter     Barndon Bass
Tim Duncan       Kevin Garnett
Kawhi Leonard   Jeff Green
Gary Neal            Jason Terry
Boris Diaw          Jared Sullinger
Matt Bonner       ? Insert Player

Certainly many will argue many of these matchups, but I think when you step back from the rosters as a whole, the Cs are not that far off from having a very comparable roster.

There is a huge difference in talent at the top. Duncan was first-team All-NBA. Parker was 2nd team All-NBA. Parker and Duncan were 6th and 7th in MVP balloting, and also both top 10 (6th and 9th) in regular season PER.

So by any measure you want, the Spurs had two top-10 players. That's why they won 58 games and are cruising to the finals.

KG and Pierce, while still very good players, are just not comparable at this stage. As a point of comparison they were 38th and 40th in PER.

When healthy Rondo is terrific, but next year he is returning from an ACL injury, and you just have to recognize that he will probably not be playing at his pre-injury level for some or all of the year.

Put it all together and we just won't have the talent. I think the rest of the Spurs roster is also more talented than ours, but that is secondary to the talent at the top.

It's easy to say that the rest of the roster is just "better" than the Cs based on how they are currently playing, but each Cs player has demonstrated the ability to play at the same or even a higher level than a comparable player on the Spurs. Jeff Green for example has shown flashes of being a go-to player. And Garnett was playing his best basketball of the season at the end.

I don't think you can look at PER stats to find the answers because this Cs team was definitely dysfunctional, but the dysfunction is correctable. Plus, looking at how the playoffs played out for us, I think the impact of the absence of Rondo certainly is the biggest take-away. This would have been a very different playoff run with Rondo on the floor.

Like I said earlier, we can go round and round on the different elements of the Spurs and the Cs rosters. and frankly each one of these debates (ie Tony Parker vs. Rondo; Duncan vs. KG) has been beaten to death. If you step back and look at the rosters as a whole, however, I think that we certainly have the core elements (like the Spurs) to have a Title contending team.

We just need Danny to stick with it AND make some better decisions in filling out the rest of the roster.

The top 3 teams in the league this year - MIA, OKC and SAS - all have two top 10 players. This is not just by PER. It is based on that, on All-NBA teams, on MVP votes...pick whatever criterion you want.

Next year we will have zero.

Pierce and KG are somewhere in the 30-40 range. Who knows where Rondo will end up, but even if he comes back in top form he's probably top 20 at best.

I don't see how fuzzy statements about rosters "as a whole" tell you anything useful. It's pretty simple, the Spurs' best players are significantly better than our best players, by any objective measure you can think of (including results in the W column).

Every champion in the modern era except one has had a top 10 player on its roster, and nearly all champions have had two players at that elite level. That's how you win in the NBA.

I'm actually not against running it back, for what that's worth. But I think hoping that we can contend for a championship with our current roster plus a minor piece or two is...optimistic, to say it tactfully. And Danny has said essentially the same thing.

Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2013, 11:54:53 AM »

Offline j804

  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9188
  • Tommy Points: 3060
  • BLOOD SWEAT & TEARS
I think the main difference is Parker vs rondo and tonys ability to be consistently aggressive and looking to score.
It helps when you have "the others" like Shaq likes to put it that are able to make shots. That killed us all year guys able to collapse on us Lee and Jet were just awful shooting the ball, no spacing at all. That's what makes the Spurs so good their shooters are deadly and spread the floor for Tony and Duncan.
"7ft PG. Rondo leaves and GUESS WHAT? We got a BIGGER point guard!"-Tommy on Olynyk


Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2013, 12:01:05 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5227
  • Tommy Points: 1065
I think the main difference is Parker vs rondo and tonys ability to be consistently aggressive and looking to score.
It helps when you have "the others" like Shaq likes to put it that are able to make shots. That killed us all year guys able to collapse on us Lee and Jet were just awful shooting the ball, no spacing at all. That's what makes the Spurs so good their shooters are deadly and spread the floor for Tony and Duncan.

I agree about this too. The top 5 3-point shooting teams in the league this year were MIA, SAS, OKC, NYK and GSW.

I don't think it's a coincidence that these teams made deep playoff runs.

Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2013, 12:03:47 PM »

Offline CelticConcourse

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6162
  • Tommy Points: 383
  • Jeff Green
this is so ridiculous
the comparisons between splitter, leonard and diaw are awful, for one.
smh

and manu right now is better than an aging paul pierce
and it's tough to argue kg being better than or equal to tim duncan.

Tiago Splitter
10/6
Brandon Bass last year
13/6

Kawhi Leonard
14/7/2/2
Jeff Green
17/5/2/1

Boris Diaw in 23 minutes (veteran with no upside)
6/3/2
Jared Sullinger in 20 minutes (rookie with tons of upside)
6/6/1

Manu Ginobili
12/3/5/1
Paul Pierce
19/6/5/1

Tim Duncan
18/10/3/3
Kevin Garnett
15/8/2/1

I'd say Brandon Bass is just as good as Tiago, Jeff Green is just as good as Kawhi, Jared Sullinger is better than Diaw, Paul Pierce is far better than Manu and Tim Duncan is better than KG. But what KG has that Timmy doesn't have is ridiculous defense.
Jeff Green - Top 5 SF

[Kevin Garnett]
"I've always said J. Green is going to be one of the best players to ever play this game"

Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2013, 12:07:11 PM »

Offline rondohondo

  • NCE
  • Danny Ainge
  • **********
  • Posts: 10756
  • Tommy Points: 1196
The only way I would be interested in running it back , is if we can land Josh Smith , Cousins , or another legit big man without giving Up Rondo, PP,KG and Green ..

If you can't keep all those guys , I don't see how we would be getting better

that means packaging Bradley and/or Sully , plus picks and salary filler to land a legit big man .

Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2013, 12:08:24 PM »

Offline winsomme

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6058
  • Tommy Points: 255
I think the Spurs are showing in this postseason why Danny absolutely should be bringing back PP and Garnett. The "age factor" which has seemed like overriding factor going into this off season for the Cs in terms of how decisions should be made has never been the biggest factor for me and is even less so after seeing this run by the San Antonio Spurs.

Look at the main parts of the rosters:

Tony Parker        Rondo
Danny Green      Courney Lee
Manu Ginobili    Paul Pierce
Tiago Splitter     Barndon Bass
Tim Duncan       Kevin Garnett
Kawhi Leonard   Jeff Green
Gary Neal            Jason Terry
Boris Diaw          Jared Sullinger
Matt Bonner       ? Insert Player

Certainly many will argue many of these matchups, but I think when you step back from the rosters as a whole, the Cs are not that far off from having a very comparable roster.

There is a huge difference in talent at the top. Duncan was first-team All-NBA. Parker was 2nd team All-NBA. Parker and Duncan were 6th and 7th in MVP balloting, and also both top 10 (6th and 9th) in regular season PER.

So by any measure you want, the Spurs had two top-10 players. That's why they won 58 games and are cruising to the finals.

KG and Pierce, while still very good players, are just not comparable at this stage. As a point of comparison they were 38th and 40th in PER.

When healthy Rondo is terrific, but next year he is returning from an ACL injury, and you just have to recognize that he will probably not be playing at his pre-injury level for some or all of the year.

Put it all together and we just won't have the talent. I think the rest of the Spurs roster is also more talented than ours, but that is secondary to the talent at the top.

It's easy to say that the rest of the roster is just "better" than the Cs based on how they are currently playing, but each Cs player has demonstrated the ability to play at the same or even a higher level than a comparable player on the Spurs. Jeff Green for example has shown flashes of being a go-to player. And Garnett was playing his best basketball of the season at the end.

I don't think you can look at PER stats to find the answers because this Cs team was definitely dysfunctional, but the dysfunction is correctable. Plus, looking at how the playoffs played out for us, I think the impact of the absence of Rondo certainly is the biggest take-away. This would have been a very different playoff run with Rondo on the floor.

Like I said earlier, we can go round and round on the different elements of the Spurs and the Cs rosters. and frankly each one of these debates (ie Tony Parker vs. Rondo; Duncan vs. KG) has been beaten to death. If you step back and look at the rosters as a whole, however, I think that we certainly have the core elements (like the Spurs) to have a Title contending team.

We just need Danny to stick with it AND make some better decisions in filling out the rest of the roster.

The top 3 teams in the league this year - MIA, OKC and SAS - all have two top 10 players. This is not just by PER. It is based on that, on All-NBA teams, on MVP votes...pick whatever criterion you want.

Next year we will have zero.

Pierce and KG are somewhere in the 30-40 range. Who knows where Rondo will end up, but even if he comes back in top form he's probably top 20 at best.

I don't see how fuzzy statements about rosters "as a whole" tell you anything useful. It's pretty simple, the Spurs' best players are significantly better than our best players, by any objective measure you can think of (including results in the W column).

Every champion in the modern era except one has had a top 10 player on its roster, and nearly all champions have had two players at that elite level. That's how you win in the NBA.

I'm actually not against running it back, for what that's worth. But I think hoping that we can contend for a championship with our current roster plus a minor piece or two is...optimistic, to say it tactfully. And Danny has said essentially the same thing.

I am quick to admit that I am not a statistics junkie...maybe someone else who is that agrees with me can build that argument. But when I watch the Spurs play and I think about the elements of our team I believe that we are not that far off from competing for a Title.

I mean who really thought that Tim Duncan could play at this level at this point in his career. Don't forget that he has been battling plantar faciitis and still has been able to play at this level. Also, don't forget that we have already had two Title runs with non-Top 10 talent.

Plus, I think you are underestimating Rondo's ability to return at to his elite level. I think Rose's hesitancy to return to the floor has unfortunately perpetuated the idea that players can't return after ACL surgery...

Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2013, 12:16:04 PM »

Offline CelticConcourse

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6162
  • Tommy Points: 383
  • Jeff Green
Tiago Splitter
10/6
Brandon Bass last year
13/6
Brandon Bass is better. (1-0-0)

Kawhi Leonard
14/7/2/2
Jeff Green
17/5/2/1
Equal. (1-1-0)

Boris Diaw in 23 minutes (veteran with no upside)
6/3/2
Jared Sullinger in 20 minutes (rookie with tons of upside)
6/6/1
Sully is better. (2-1-0)

Manu Ginobili
12/3/5/1
Paul Pierce
19/6/5/1
Pierce is far better. (3-1-0)

Tim Duncan
18/10/3/3
Kevin Garnett
15/8/2/1
Duncan is better, but KG has D. (3-1-1)

Danny Green
11/3/2/1
Courtney Lee last year
11/3/2/1
Exact same, so I'd say equal. (3-2-1)

Gary Neal
10/2/2/0
Jason Terry
10/2/3/1
Terry is equal at worst. (3-3-1)

Tony Parker
20/3/8/1
Rajon Rondo
13/5/11/2
Parker is better, but Rondo is close. (3-3-2)

DeJuan Blair
5/4/1/1
Shavlik Randolph
4/4/0/1
Equal. (3-4-2)

For lack of a better comparison?
Nando de Colo in 36 minutes
11/5/2/2
Avery Bradley in 36 minutes
13/3/3
Bradley is better, with defense and NDC doesn't get many minutes for a reason. (4-4-2)

You'll note on paper, we're just as good as San Antonio, if not better. It's up to Doc to play our players in the best way so that we win the most games. This is solely based on stats and we're just as good, if not better. One more run.
Jeff Green - Top 5 SF

[Kevin Garnett]
"I've always said J. Green is going to be one of the best players to ever play this game"

Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2013, 12:23:27 PM »

Offline winsomme

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6058
  • Tommy Points: 255
...

You'll note on paper, we're just as good as San Antonio, if not better. It's up to Doc to play our players in the best way so that we win the most games. This is solely based on stats and we're just as good, if not better. One more run.

Doc and Danny. Danny absolutely needs to have a better off season. I think draft-wise we could end up like last year where someone really talented drops to us. But FA and trades are where Danny could really put us into position for a run the next two years.

I think we are going to have to move some package of either Bass and Bradley or Lee and Sullinger to free up spots for players with different skill sets. We need size and right now we have something like 17 million tied up in undersized two guards.

Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2013, 12:34:26 PM »

Offline edwardjkasche

  • Derrick White
  • Posts: 254
  • Tommy Points: 38
As much as we all (me included!) like to believe the Spurs are the sturdiest of all modern NBA franchises, and Popovich is the best of modern NBA coaches, it is interesting to note that the Spurs have been bounced in the first round of the playoffs twice in the past five seasons (and they lost in the second round once).  All this with what can be considered a better and overall healthier roster than the Celtics. 

Since 2009-10, the Spurs have finished each season with a better record and a higher seed than the Celtics, but they have fared worse - when taking seeding into account - in the playoffs (when the real season starts).

This is why I agree that unless Ainge is BLOWN AWAY by trade proposals, he should run it back the next two seasons (until KG's contract ends).  The Celtics simply need to stay healthy and Doc needs to fine-tune his lineups, which is exactly what has happened for the Spurs this season.

Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2013, 12:37:13 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5227
  • Tommy Points: 1065

I mean who really thought that Tim Duncan could play at this level at this point in his career. Don't forget that he has been battling plantar faciitis and still has been able to play at this level. Also, don't forget that we have already had two Title runs with non-Top 10 talent.


See, I think this is where people kind of underestimate the difference between then and now.

When we won the title KG was actually still a top 5 player. He was DPOY and came in 3rd in the MVP voting. He was the best two-way player in the league, in my opinion.

But, that was six long years ago. In 2010 you have a better case, but (a) we lost, and (b) that team actually dramatically over-achieved in the playoffs. And even then, we had KG, Pierce and Allen still playing at All-Star levels.

If you don't believe that these numbers tell you the story, go back and watch one of those games from 2008. I think you will be shocked by how fluid and explosive KG and Pierce looked then, compared to now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yA4PMPdXK8I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJET_UmviUg