Author Topic: The Spurs show we should run it back  (Read 23751 times)

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Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #90 on: May 27, 2013, 03:35:16 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Just goes to show you that playoff wins means long series, not closed out.  That Spurs core has won several rings prior to 08 though.

Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #91 on: May 27, 2013, 04:59:09 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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As much as we all (me included!) like to believe the Spurs are the sturdiest of all modern NBA franchises, and Popovich is the best of modern NBA coaches, it is interesting to note that the Spurs have been bounced in the first round of the playoffs twice in the past five seasons (and they lost in the second round once).  All this with what can be considered a better and overall healthier roster than the Celtics. 

Since 2009-10, the Spurs have finished each season with a better record and a higher seed than the Celtics, but they have fared worse - when taking seeding into account - in the playoffs (when the real season starts).

This is why I agree that unless Ainge is BLOWN AWAY by trade proposals, he should run it back the next two seasons (until KG's contract ends).  The Celtics simply need to stay healthy and Doc needs to fine-tune his lineups, which is exactly what has happened for the Spurs this season.

That's completely and utterly ignoring the fact that the Spurs play in the West, which has a significant head over the East when it comes to talent.

It took us 7 games to beat the Sixers last year, while they don't even make the playoffs (per record) in the West.

While we may have gone further "on paper," the paper doesn't take into account that type of talent disparity.
It took us 7 games against the 8th seed Atlanta Hawks back in 2008 and we destroyed the Lakers in the finals in 6. And the lakers were better and favorites on winning the title back then.

One thing you forget is match ups. We can beat elite teams and lost to lottery ones just like the regular season.

Totally true, but there's no way you can convince me that the East isn't the weaker conference--and subsequently, that the KG celtics have been playing against relatively weaker competition (than the Spurs have) in their playoff runs since 2007.
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Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #92 on: May 27, 2013, 05:08:45 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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Here's an interesting fact:

Since the '07-'08 season, the Boston Celtics have won more total playoff game than any other team in the league:

Celtics: 

56 playoff wins.  1 Championship.  2 Conference Championships.

Lakers:

55 playoff wins.  2 Championships.  3 Conference Championships.

Heat:

44 playoff wins.  1 Championship.  2 Conference Championships.

Spurs:

37 playoff wins.  0 Championships.  O Conference Championships (likely to be 1 before too long).

Magic:

32 playoff wins.  0 Championships.  1 Conference Championship.

Mavericks:

24 playoff wins.  1 Championship.  1 Conference Championship.

Cavaliers:

23 playoff wins.  0 Championships.  1 Conference Championship.

The Lakers two titles and three conference titles, with just one less total playoff win trumps us, but I think it's fair to say that we've been the second most successful franchise in the NBA since Kevin Garnett joined our team. 

Even if the Spurs go on to win it all this year, they'll still lag behind us in playoff accomplishments over that time span.

You're right that we've had a great run.

Doesn't tell us much about what to do next year, though, which is (was?) the topic of the thread.


Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #93 on: May 27, 2013, 05:09:48 PM »

Offline CelticConcourse

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Who thinks the Spurs would be on the verge of reaching the Finals if they didn't have Tony Parker?

Me.

If Russ were healthy, it'd be a whole different story though.
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Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #94 on: May 27, 2013, 05:13:12 PM »

Offline LB3533

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We should certainly give the club and Doc an honest shot next year with a healthy group.

Each year since winning in 2008, outside of 2011-2012 were we virtually injury riddled.

And even in 2012 we were not completely healthy.

Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #95 on: May 27, 2013, 05:54:54 PM »

Offline BballTim

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The Spurs have Pop, we don't.

Pop is not afraid to yell at his stars for making dumb plays or bench them in the final minutes of the game for that matter.

Doc on the other hand tries to always please his star players, he will never yell at KG or Paul ever. Never calls them out in front of the whole team.
Poppovic, does.

This is why their rookies and young guys play so well, because they know that Pop, won't take their "crap".

  The Spurs have had Pop during the entire KG era and it hasn't really made them more successful than the Celts, or even as successful for that matter.

Last time I checked the Spurs with Pop has 4 Championships.
1999, 2003, 2005, 2007. They are 4 out of 4 in all their final appearances.

  I don't think too many (if any) of the Spurs playoff runs were based on the Spurs beating a clearly more talented team, so I wouldn't attribute any of them to his terrific coaching.
Perhaps because they were the more talented team, and that's because of Pop.

  Yeah, if not for Pop Duncan would have probably had a Chris Bosh-like career.

Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #96 on: May 27, 2013, 06:18:12 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
We should certainly give the club and Doc an honest shot next year with a healthy group.

Each year since winning in 2008, outside of 2011-2012 were we virtually injury riddled.

And even in 2012 we were not completely healthy.

The fallacy of that logic is that the older you get the more injury prone you will be at certain positions.  Don't you think it's likely that guys will get injured again?  I do.

Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #97 on: May 27, 2013, 06:32:15 PM »

Offline mr. dee

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As much as we all (me included!) like to believe the Spurs are the sturdiest of all modern NBA franchises, and Popovich is the best of modern NBA coaches, it is interesting to note that the Spurs have been bounced in the first round of the playoffs twice in the past five seasons (and they lost in the second round once).  All this with what can be considered a better and overall healthier roster than the Celtics. 

Since 2009-10, the Spurs have finished each season with a better record and a higher seed than the Celtics, but they have fared worse - when taking seeding into account - in the playoffs (when the real season starts).

This is why I agree that unless Ainge is BLOWN AWAY by trade proposals, he should run it back the next two seasons (until KG's contract ends).  The Celtics simply need to stay healthy and Doc needs to fine-tune his lineups, which is exactly what has happened for the Spurs this season.

That's completely and utterly ignoring the fact that the Spurs play in the West, which has a significant head over the East when it comes to talent.

It took us 7 games to beat the Sixers last year, while they don't even make the playoffs (per record) in the West.

While we may have gone further "on paper," the paper doesn't take into account that type of talent disparity.
It took us 7 games against the 8th seed Atlanta Hawks back in 2008 and we destroyed the Lakers in the finals in 6. And the lakers were better and favorites on winning the title back then.

One thing you forget is match ups. We can beat elite teams and lost to lottery ones just like the regular season.

Totally true, but there's no way you can convince me that the East isn't the weaker conference--and subsequently, that the KG celtics have been playing against relatively weaker competition (than the Spurs have) in their playoff runs since 2007.

We became underdogs every year since KG went down from injury in 2009. LeBron's Cavs and Dwight's Magic were clear favorites to win the Eastern Conference. Dwight and LeBron were clear MVP candidates and their team were on 50+ wins.

Western Conference last year was deep as today. We took the defending champions in 7 games. But it only took 5 games for the Heat to take down the Thunders and win the championship.

Like I said, it's all about the match ups.

Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #98 on: May 27, 2013, 06:47:27 PM »

Offline timobusa

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The Spurs have Pop, we don't.

Pop is not afraid to yell at his stars for making dumb plays or bench them in the final minutes of the game for that matter.

Doc on the other hand tries to always please his star players, he will never yell at KG or Paul ever. Never calls them out in front of the whole team.
Poppovic, does.

This is why their rookies and young guys play so well, because they know that Pop, won't take their "crap".

  The Spurs have had Pop during the entire KG era and it hasn't really made them more successful than the Celts, or even as successful for that matter.

Last time I checked the Spurs with Pop has 4 Championships.
1999, 2003, 2005, 2007. They are 4 out of 4 in all their final appearances.

  I don't think too many (if any) of the Spurs playoff runs were based on the Spurs beating a clearly more talented team, so I wouldn't attribute any of them to his terrific coaching.
Perhaps because they were the more talented team, and that's because of Pop.

  Yeah, if not for Pop Duncan would have probably had a Chris Bosh-like career.

Pop is a huge part of the Spurs success in the last 15 years.

Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #99 on: May 27, 2013, 08:20:05 PM »

Offline TripleOT

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Ainge hasn't drafted a player besides AB who has contributed around his Big 3 since  BBD in 2007 (and I know that BBD was picked by Seattle, for Ainge). And AB's contribution was minimal due to his many injuries.

I call you on this one, Sullinger was helping until his injury.

Well Sullinger didn't play with the Big 3.  He did manage to play 45 games this past season with the new Big 3 before being lost for the season to a back operation. I like the Sully pick, BTW.   

Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #100 on: May 27, 2013, 08:48:12 PM »

Offline CelticConcourse

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The Spurs have Pop, we don't.

Pop is not afraid to yell at his stars for making dumb plays or bench them in the final minutes of the game for that matter.

Doc on the other hand tries to always please his star players, he will never yell at KG or Paul ever. Never calls them out in front of the whole team.
Poppovic, does.

This is why their rookies and young guys play so well, because they know that Pop, won't take their "crap".

  The Spurs have had Pop during the entire KG era and it hasn't really made them more successful than the Celts, or even as successful for that matter.

Last time I checked the Spurs with Pop has 4 Championships.
1999, 2003, 2005, 2007. They are 4 out of 4 in all their final appearances.

  I don't think too many (if any) of the Spurs playoff runs were based on the Spurs beating a clearly more talented team, so I wouldn't attribute any of them to his terrific coaching.
Perhaps because they were the more talented team, and that's because of Pop.

  Yeah, if not for Pop Duncan would have probably had a Chris Bosh-like career.

 :o :o I hope you mean he would have probably had a Kevin Garnett-like career.
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Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #101 on: May 27, 2013, 08:50:47 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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The Spurs have Pop, we don't.

Pop is not afraid to yell at his stars for making dumb plays or bench them in the final minutes of the game for that matter.

Doc on the other hand tries to always please his star players, he will never yell at KG or Paul ever. Never calls them out in front of the whole team.
Poppovic, does.

This is why their rookies and young guys play so well, because they know that Pop, won't take their "crap".

  The Spurs have had Pop during the entire KG era and it hasn't really made them more successful than the Celts, or even as successful for that matter.

Last time I checked the Spurs with Pop has 4 Championships.
1999, 2003, 2005, 2007. They are 4 out of 4 in all their final appearances.

  I don't think too many (if any) of the Spurs playoff runs were based on the Spurs beating a clearly more talented team, so I wouldn't attribute any of them to his terrific coaching.
Perhaps because they were the more talented team, and that's because of Pop.

  Yeah, if not for Pop Duncan would have probably had a Chris Bosh-like career.

You mean he would have joined with Kobe and Nash and coasted to a few rings?

Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #102 on: May 27, 2013, 09:24:11 PM »

Offline kgainez

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Ainge hasn't drafted a player besides AB who has contributed around his Big 3 since  BBD in 2007 (and I know that BBD was picked by Seattle, for Ainge). And AB's contribution was minimal due to his many injuries.

I call you on this one, Sullinger was helping until his injury.

Well Sullinger didn't play with the Big 3.  He did manage to play 45 games this past season with the new Big 3 before being lost for the season to a back operation. I like the Sully pick, BTW.

Didn't Ainge draft Jeff Green?

Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #103 on: May 27, 2013, 10:07:30 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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The Spurs are significantly better than the Celtics are in virtually every phase of the game and every position.

yeah, I don't see it that way. KG is right there with TD. Pierce is better than Ginobili, and Rondo is capable of playing with TP. The role players are a mixed bag, but none of SAs role players has the upside of Jeff Green.

Danny needs to figure out how to reshape the role players, but I think he is capable of doing that. The #16 pick and the MLE are two key pieces. Add to those trades and I think he can get us a better big man rotation and some size on the perimeter....

I just dont see how you can say KG is right there with Duncan at this point in both their careers.

Duncan averaged 18 and 10 with 3 blocks per game this year in just 30 minutes while shooting 50% from the field.

KG averaged 15 and 8 while shooting just a hiar under 50% and averaged LESS THAN a block per game in the same minutes as Duncan.

As a 37 year old Duncan made first team All NBA and Second team all NBA defense. KG still anchors our teams defense but he has considerably lost a step, especially when compared to Duncan.

Those particular stats are a bit of a dubious comparison, though.

KG has maintained that 'near 50%' FG% while shooting a far higher share of shots from outside than Duncan.

Duncan has always played much closer to the hoop on both offense and defense than KG.  He takes a much larger share of his shots within 2-3 feet of the basket.  he also normally plays closer under the hoop and along the baseline on defense.  That sounds great - and it is certainly not a 'bad thing' that Duncan plays close to the hoop.  He gets more close-in high-percentage shots off the post-up or off put-backs.  And he's going to get more blocks on defense.

KG, is much more of a 'stretch' big.  His role on offense is to pull a defensive big man out of the paint to open it up for others.   He's a much better outside shooter than Duncan.

I would argue that KG is actually more versatile overall on offense than Duncan.  His utilization is lower over recent years (a product of playing with Pierce and Allen).  KG has posted a USG% of around 23% most years, while Duncan has been called on at about a 28% rate.  And thus Duncan has taken 2-3 more shots per game.  But KG's still been pretty much just as efficient on post-up plays as Duncan, while possessing a much better outside game and the ability to work off the dribble.

KG's shooting percentages from every distance are as good or better than Duncan's.  Mostly better.  He just doesn't take as many shots as Duncan.  Which is more of a function of the teams they each have been on.

Defensively, their roles overlap, but Duncan spends more time defending the low post while KG is one of the best high-paint, P&R defenders, ever.  He's also a tremendous show-&-recover help defender on the perimeter.

Defending the high paint doesn't result in exiting counting stats.  You aren't in great position for rebounds or blocks.  But you disrupt passing lanes and hedge away driving lanes and force oppositions to settle for lower-percentage outside shots.  You do get the occasional steal.  So while Duncan's block rates are a little higher, KG's steal rates are a little higher.   

Duncan has, accordingly, had a slight edge in Defensive Rebound Rate in recent years, but not by much.  Both have been among the NBA elite, posting DRB% between 25-30% each year. 

Both Duncan and Garnett are great players.  In my opinion, they are the two premier power forwards of their generation and among the greatest ever.  But they are very different TYPES of power forwards.   Duncan is more of a 'classic' PF.  Versatile, yes, but with an emphasis on the baseline and low-post game.  KG is a different kind of beast, extending the PF game out much further from the basket on both ends.

I think trying to say which is 'better' than the other becomes almost a matter of taste.  Depending on what the rest of your team is made up of, one may be more or less valuable than the other.
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Re: The Spurs show we should run it back
« Reply #104 on: May 27, 2013, 10:42:43 PM »

Offline WeMadeIt17

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Celtics need a catch and shoot guy to be back at the level of the Spurs. Also if we could convince pierce to come off the bench then yes, we could be the spurs. Need a big man as well though, but if we could have pierce off the bench like Manu that would be a huge help.