The Spurs show we should run it back

[Clench123]

I actually think our roster is better than the Spurs'. We just need to click, and that's on Doc.

No, we just need another big man.  A talented big man.  I believe that's all we need

[CelticConcourse]

I actually think our roster is better than the Spurs'. We just need to click, and that's on Doc.

No, we just need another big man.  A talented big man.  I believe that's all we need

We had Steamer last year and were minutes away from the Finals. We have Shav this year, and that's all we're getting. Danny is not a magician: we will have to make do with what we've got.

[winsomme]

I mean who really thought that Tim Duncan could play at this level at this point in his career. Don't forget that he has been battling plantar faciitis and still has been able to play at this level. Also, don't forget that we have already had two Title runs with non-Top 10 talent.

See, I think this is where people kind of underestimate the difference between then and now.

When we won the title KG was actually still a top 5 player. He was DPOY and came in 3rd in the MVP voting. He was the best two-way player in the league, in my opinion.

But, that was six long years ago. In 2010 you have a better case, but (a) we lost, and (b) that team actually dramatically over-achieved in the playoffs. And even then, we had KG, Pierce and Allen still playing at All-Star levels.

If you don't believe that these numbers tell you the story, go back and watch one of those games from 2008. I think you will be shocked by how fluid and explosive KG and Pierce looked then, compared to now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yA4PMPdXK8I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJET_UmviUg

But you IMO are discounting the impact of losing Rondo. Plus, like you said yourself, 2010 is a better case. We may have lost, but we were honestly a Perk injury away from a second Title.

And again, this is about being a Title contender. There are many factors that go into actually winning the Title, but is it possible.

In 2010 we did not overachieve. We simply had a good system with personnel that fit the system. We still have the good system, but we did not have the personnel this year. Mostly due to injury, but also some misses on Danny's part.

The bright spots are that we have a nice first round pick in this draft and Jeff Green showed some serious ability which we could use on this team or capitalize on it via trade. Jeff Green certainly a better commodity now due to his play and is on a very affordable contract.

Plus we should have both Rondo and Sullinger back next year.

[winsomme]

Not to mention, Boris, that like CC just pointed out we went to a game 7 with the vaunted Miami Heat last season without Jeff Green and later Avery Bradley...

[kgainez]

Tiago Splitter
10/6
Brandon Bass last year
13/6
Brandon Bass is better. (1-0-0)

Kawhi Leonard
14/7/2/2
Jeff Green
17/5/2/1
Equal. (1-1-0)

Boris Diaw in 23 minutes (veteran with no upside)
6/3/2
Jared Sullinger in 20 minutes (rookie with tons of upside)
6/6/1
Sully is better. (2-1-0)

Manu Ginobili
12/3/5/1
Paul Pierce
19/6/5/1
Pierce is far better. (3-1-0)

Tim Duncan
18/10/3/3
Kevin Garnett
15/8/2/1
Duncan is better, but KG has D. (3-1-1)

Danny Green
11/3/2/1
Courtney Lee last year
11/3/2/1
Exact same, so I'd say equal. (3-2-1)

Gary Neal
10/2/2/0
Jason Terry
10/2/3/1
Terry is equal at worst. (3-3-1)

Tony Parker
20/3/8/1
Rajon Rondo
13/5/11/2
Parker is better, but Rondo is close. (3-3-2)

DeJuan Blair
5/4/1/1
Shavlik Randolph
4/4/0/1
Equal. (3-4-2)

For lack of a better comparison?
Nando de Colo in 36 minutes
11/5/2/2
Avery Bradley in 36 minutes
13/3/3
Bradley is better, with defense and NDC doesn't get many minutes for a reason. (4-4-2)

You'll note on paper, we're just as good as San Antonio, if not better. It's up to Doc to play our players in the best way so that we win the most games. This is solely based on stats and we're just as good, if not better. One more run.

skewed stats and ure using player averages or what you think they should have
manu is a bench player while paul is a starter -- a starter who had to fill in for the PG role this year. their per36 numbers are kind of in the same vicinity

20/6rebs/5ast on 43.6% shooting from paul
18/5 rebs/7ast on 43.5% shooting from manu

kawhi leanord has started all games while jeff green started over 20.

kg is injured beyond repair. they dont even want him to get surgery. i like kg...i really do, but td has been owning in this playoffs run.

rondo was out the entire 2nd half of the season. no telling where his numbers wouldve went. i don't think, from what i've seen, he's consistent enough to compete with tony parker.

[LooseCannon]

The Celtics have a defense that is good enough to contend.  The team could use some help from the center position behind Garnett and some improved three-point shooting.  Avery Bradley getting his upper-body strength back and getting to around 37-38% would do a lot to fix that, but it would be nice to bring in a back-up PG who you want to take the shot when he has the opportunity for an open three.  It'd also be nice to have a Matt Bonner type guy who can hit a 3 as the power forward.

[blink]

To me the original post just doesn't pass the eye test.  The spurs are just a flat out way better team.  I think it comes down to Tony Parker.  The guy has been unstoppable in the playoffs.  His penetration opens everything up for their offense and he is incredible at finishing at the rim.  Add to that Duncan having a renaissance year and they are just better.

There are similarities between the C's and Spurs, but at this point with the way parker and duncan are playing, and the contributions they get from their bigs we just aren't as good.

Sometimes individual statistics don't tell the whole team story.

[CelticConcourse]

Tiago Splitter
10/6
Brandon Bass last year
13/6
Brandon Bass is better. (1-0-0)

Kawhi Leonard
14/7/2/2
Jeff Green
17/5/2/1
Equal. (1-1-0)

Boris Diaw in 23 minutes (veteran with no upside)
6/3/2
Jared Sullinger in 20 minutes (rookie with tons of upside)
6/6/1
Sully is better. (2-1-0)

Manu Ginobili
12/3/5/1
Paul Pierce
19/6/5/1
Pierce is far better. (3-1-0)

Tim Duncan
18/10/3/3
Kevin Garnett
15/8/2/1
Duncan is better, but KG has D. (3-1-1)

Danny Green
11/3/2/1
Courtney Lee last year
11/3/2/1
Exact same, so I'd say equal. (3-2-1)

Gary Neal
10/2/2/0
Jason Terry
10/2/3/1
Terry is equal at worst. (3-3-1)

Tony Parker
20/3/8/1
Rajon Rondo
13/5/11/2
Parker is better, but Rondo is close. (3-3-2)

DeJuan Blair
5/4/1/1
Shavlik Randolph
4/4/0/1
Equal. (3-4-2)

For lack of a better comparison?
Nando de Colo in 36 minutes
11/5/2/2
Avery Bradley in 36 minutes
13/3/3
Bradley is better, with defense and NDC doesn't get many minutes for a reason. (4-4-2)

You'll note on paper, we're just as good as San Antonio, if not better. It's up to Doc to play our players in the best way so that we win the most games. This is solely based on stats and we're just as good, if not better. One more run.

manu is a bench player while paul is a starter -- a starter who had to fill in for the PG role this year. their per36 numbers are kind of in the same vicinity
20/6rebs/5ast on 43.6% shooting from paul
18/5 rebs/7ast on 43.5% shooting from manu

-Notice there's a reason Pierce plays more minutes and has better per36 stats than Manu: he's better. He's not old. Manu is not as good as he used to be. Pierce was a legit borderline All-Star this year; Manu was far from it.

kawhi leanord has started all games while jeff green started over 20.

-Notice how Jeff has just as good stats as Kawhi, coming off the bench. He hasn't hit his potential at all, look at his second-half-of-the-year stats. He can be better, when starting.

kg is injured beyond repair. they dont even want him to get surgery. i like kg...i really do, but td has been owning in this playoffs run.

-TD might be owning this postseason, but that doesn't make KG worse.

rondo was out the entire 2nd half of the season. no telling where his numbers wouldve went. i don't think, from what i've seen, he's consistent enough to compete with tony parker.

-Rondo may be a question mark, but from what we've seen he can be just as good, if not better, than Parker. I did say TP is better, but not by much. Rondo is consistent in the Playoffs, where it matters.



I just think that if Doc does a good job, we're contenders. Our individual players are just as good, if not better, than the Spurs'.

[celts10]

Not to mention, Boris, that like CC just pointed out we went to a game 7 with the vaunted Miami Heat last season without Jeff Green and later Avery Bradley...

True, but how many games did the Heat play without Chris Bosh to start the series? We probably would have lost the series 4-1 or 4-2 if he was healthy from the start.

[SparzWizard]

Injuries have taken a toll on us this year.

[Boris Badenov]

Tiago Splitter
10/6
Brandon Bass last year
13/6
Brandon Bass is better. (1-0-0)

Manu Ginobili
12/3/5/1
Paul Pierce
19/6/5/1
Pierce is far better. (3-1-0)

Tim Duncan
18/10/3/3
Kevin Garnett
15/8/2/1
Duncan is better, but KG has D. (3-1-1)

Danny Green
11/3/2/1
Courtney Lee last year
11/3/2/1
Exact same, so I'd say equal. (3-2-1)

skewed stats and ure using player averages or what you think they should have
manu is a bench player while paul is a starter -- a starter who had to fill in for the PG role this year. their per36 numbers are kind of in the same vicinity

20/6rebs/5ast on 43.6% shooting from paul
18/5 rebs/7ast on 43.5% shooting from manu

I agree with kgainez about Manu - Pierce has an edge but it's ever so slight.

And I think on some of the others you are just way off.

Splitter is a superior player to Bass. Per-36:

Bass 11/7/48%
Splitter 15/9/56%

Splitter is a better offensive player, better defender, better rebounder, more efficient, etc....he's one of the best post defenders in the league. Bass is pretty good, but Splitter is excellent and a legit big man rather than a tweener.

Calling KG and Duncan a tie because of KG's defense...I think you should check out TD's play this year. TD is a great defender as well, and has been much, much better offensively this year than KG was, particularly in the post.

http://nba.si.com/2013/04/04/tim-duncan-san-antonio-spurs-defense/

http://www.48minutesofhell.com/tim-duncan-spurs-low-post

And as far as Green vs. Lee: both guys are "3 and D" players, and on the "3" part Green was vastly superior ranking 8th in the NBA in total 3s made, shooting them at 43%.

The only players to make more 3s at a higher percentage were Steph Curry and Kyle Korver. Green was an elite outside threat this year.

And, to just repeat the most critical thing, the Spurs' best 2 guys were both legit MVP candidates even this year. We just do not have that level of talent.

[Vermont Green]

I think this is an interesting topic for discussion.  The stars have definitely alligned for SA Spurs this year.  They are healthy and some of the other West teams (Lakers, OKC) are not.

I believe that a healthy Tony Parker is a better player than a healthy Rondo.  The difference isn't about stats or shooting percentages but in the way the opposing team must adjust to stop Parker vs. how teams play off Rondo and don't care if he shoots.  Rondo could well close this gap but right now, Parker is playing great and making a big impact.

The KG Duncan comparison comes down to health and perhaps more specifically wear and tear.  Both are 37 but KG has 17 seasons/1323 games, Duncan 15 seasons/1180 games.  KG just looks more broken down to me and I don't think KG can give a team a complete season without injury anymore.  Duncan maybe be close to the end as well but appears to be more durable at this point in his career.

I take Pierce over Ginobili but it is the same kind of thing as with KG-Duncan.  Yes they are both 35 but PP has 14 seasons and Manu only 10.  PP has been a marvelously durable player but is starting to show signs.

Bottom line, yes, SA is having a great year and there are similarities that Cs can emulate but I don't think that necessarily means it is the way to go forward with this team.  That doesn't mean I think we should just dump everyone but I actually do favor seeing what we can get for Pierce and KG.  If we can't get value, then run them back again but we need to try and come up with a value trade (easier said than done).

[winsomme]

Tiago Splitter
10/6
Brandon Bass last year
13/6
Brandon Bass is better. (1-0-0)

Manu Ginobili
12/3/5/1
Paul Pierce
19/6/5/1
Pierce is far better. (3-1-0)

Tim Duncan
18/10/3/3
Kevin Garnett
15/8/2/1
Duncan is better, but KG has D. (3-1-1)

Danny Green
11/3/2/1
Courtney Lee last year
11/3/2/1
Exact same, so I'd say equal. (3-2-1)

skewed stats and ure using player averages or what you think they should have
manu is a bench player while paul is a starter -- a starter who had to fill in for the PG role this year. their per36 numbers are kind of in the same vicinity

20/6rebs/5ast on 43.6% shooting from paul
18/5 rebs/7ast on 43.5% shooting from manu

I agree with kgainez about Manu - Pierce has an edge but it's ever so slight.

And I think on some of the others you are just way off.

Splitter is a superior player to Bass. Per-36:

Bass 11/7/48%
Splitter 15/9/56%

Splitter is a better offensive player, better defender, better rebounder, more efficient, etc....he's one of the best post defenders in the league. Bass is pretty good, but Splitter is excellent and a legit big man rather than a tweener.

Calling KG and Duncan a tie because of KG's defense...I think you should check out TD's play this year. TD is a great defender as well, and has been much, much better offensively this year than KG was, particularly in the post.

http://nba.si.com/2013/04/04/tim-duncan-san-antonio-spurs-defense/

http://www.48minutesofhell.com/tim-duncan-spurs-low-post

And as far as Green vs. Lee: both guys are "3 and D" players, and on the "3" part Green was vastly superior ranking 8th in the NBA in total 3s made, shooting them at 43%.

The only players to make more 3s at a higher percentage were Steph Curry and Kyle Korver. Green was an elite outside threat this year.

And, to just repeat the most critical thing, the Spurs' best 2 guys were both legit MVP candidates even this year. We just do not have that level of talent.

I think where people come down on Rondo, KG, and Green are the biggest factors in this debate.

While I don't think Rondo is an MVP candidate, I do think he is elite. The way the team played prior to his injury added to the fact that he will be coming back from ACL surgery has led to many people being way down on him and his abilities. I, however, look at Rondo and see a top talent and one that with the right personnel can be transformative.

I also look at KG as a transformative talent. He elevates the people around him and he played monster games at the END of the season. I really think his compete level is as high as ever, and I expect him to play at an All-Star level again next season. Plus, transformative players are few and far between in this league.

And as for Jeff Green, I have been extremely surprised by his play. I was never a fan of the Perk trade, but I think Green now has to be considered a high level talent with a lot of upside. Whether the Cs can figure out how to tap into that upside or Danny is able to capitalize on it via trade, I really am not sure, but I think in comparison to a player like Leonard, Green is a place where next year we could take a big step forward. Part of me would like Danny to package Green together with our pick and contract like Bass or Lee and get a player who might be a little better fit for our roster (like a Cousins or a Big Al).

[winsomme]

I think this is an interesting topic for discussion.  The stars have definitely alligned for SA Spurs this year.  They are healthy and some of the other West teams (Lakers, OKC) are not.

I believe that a healthy Tony Parker is a better player than a healthy Rondo.  The difference isn't about stats or shooting percentages but in the way the opposing team must adjust to stop Parker vs. how teams play off Rondo and don't care if he shoots.  Rondo could well close this gap but right now, Parker is playing great and making a big impact.

The KG Duncan comparison comes down to health and perhaps more specifically wear and tear.  Both are 37 but KG has 17 seasons/1323 games, Duncan 15 seasons/1180 games.  KG just looks more broken down to me and I don't think KG can give a team a complete season without injury anymore.  Duncan maybe be close to the end as well but appears to be more durable at this point in his career.

I take Pierce over Ginobili but it is the same kind of thing as with KG-Duncan.  Yes they are both 35 but PP has 14 seasons and Manu only 10.  PP has been a marvelously durable player but is starting to show signs.

Bottom line, yes, SA is having a great year and there are similarities that Cs can emulate but I don't think that necessarily means it is the way to go forward with this team.  That doesn't mean I think we should just dump everyone but I actually do favor seeing what we can get for Pierce and KG.  If we can't get value, then run them back again but we need to try and come up with a value trade (easier said than done).

I hear what you are saying, Vermont. I just think that we could get two more years out of KG and Paul and have very competitive team each year, and I think that what the Spurs are doing is a good indication that this thinking isn't unreasonable.

[bucknersrevenge]

I think this is an interesting topic for discussion.  The stars have definitely alligned for SA Spurs this year.  They are healthy and some of the other West teams (Lakers, OKC) are not.

I believe that a healthy Tony Parker is a better player than a healthy Rondo.  The difference isn't about stats or shooting percentages but in the way the opposing team must adjust to stop Parker vs. how teams play off Rondo and don't care if he shoots.  Rondo could well close this gap but right now, Parker is playing great and making a big impact.

The KG Duncan comparison comes down to health and perhaps more specifically wear and tear.  Both are 37 but KG has 17 seasons/1323 games, Duncan 15 seasons/1180 games.  KG just looks more broken down to me and I don't think KG can give a team a complete season without injury anymore.  Duncan maybe be close to the end as well but appears to be more durable at this point in his career.

I take Pierce over Ginobili but it is the same kind of thing as with KG-Duncan.  Yes they are both 35 but PP has 14 seasons and Manu only 10.  PP has been a marvelously durable player but is starting to show signs.

Bottom line, yes, SA is having a great year and there are similarities that Cs can emulate but I don't think that necessarily means it is the way to go forward with this team.  That doesn't mean I think we should just dump everyone but I actually do favor seeing what we can get for Pierce and KG.  If we can't get value, then run them back again but we need to try and come up with a value trade (easier said than done).

I hear what you are saying, Vermont. I just think that we could get two more years out of KG and Paul and have very competitive team each year, and I think that what the Spurs are doing is a good indication that this thinking isn't unreasonable.

There is nothing I saw at the end of the season last year that suggests to me at all that these guys have 2 years left. Not on THIS team anyway. Perhaps on another roster where they can be like the 3rd or 4th best player but equating our situation to the Spurs IMO just doesn't hold water.