Author Topic: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title  (Read 10624 times)

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Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #105 on: May 26, 2013, 11:47:02 AM »

Offline kgainez

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lol... Yogi/Celtics18 ...  lot of effort spent arguing whether Tony Parker is slightly better than Rondo (Parker is a back-to-back All-NBA 2nd team ... Rondo was All-NBA 3rd team last year) ... or whether Sully's ceiling will ever reach SPlitter's current level...

You're missing my overall point here.  You remove Pierce/KG from Boston (a 41 win also-ran) and claim the remaining core is a future title contender is almost as foolish as removing DUncan/Ginobili from the Spurs (a 58 win contender) and claiming the remaining core is a future title contender.

Thread is nonsense.  Remove KG and Pierce from Boston and you're lookin at a lotto ticket.

Not at all

1.  I was responding to a very specific comparison between the 4 Spurs players and 4 Celtics.  This was not a part of the greater argument. 

2.  Ironically, while accusing us of missing the point, it is you who missed the OP's original point.  As pointed out earlier, the potential for these 4 being a championship core is in the future.  In 3 years time, Rondo and Green will be in their absolute prime like Parker is now.  Bradley and Sullinger will be 24 and 25 entering their prime years.  Considering that all 4 of those Celtics are young and coming off surgeries/injuries that held them back this season it is not unreasonable to expect they would improve a lot over the next three years.  If Fab can develop also in that time you're looking at potentially

MVP level player in Rondo
Lockdown 3 and D wing Bradley
20 5 5 Jeff Green
17 10 Sullinger
Shot blocking, long and mobile 7ft presence in Fab Melo (or Steven Adams).

This core is young, athletic, long, and can shoot.  Great balance of defense and offense.  Rondo, Green and Sully can dominate the post.  Add the further draft picks and cap space with the retirement of KG, Paul and Terry (also Bass who may or may not be extended) why can't this be a championship core in 3 years?  This is close to the best case scenario but we are talking about potential.

thank you
and we aren't even talking about playoffs
i dont think sully gets to 17ppg, but even if we get a 7footer who can score, i'm not sure why ppl are so pessimistic.

with the exception of injuries, you're asking everyone to do what they did with MINOR developments (JG and his left, AB and his long distance which was excellent season before last, Rondo and his long distance which was obviously developing, Sully catch 2 - 3 more rebounds per game than he did in january 2013).

at worst, you need a center who can run the floor. that's it...i'd even take a deandre jordan on that team.

only thing i agree with is the team is a bit small, but again, you get a 7 footer and hope rondo is still fast, i'm not sure there's too many problems.
the only problem, it still wont win a championship. there are too many better teams that are ELITE. this roster wont beat the thunder. it may be entertaining but it wont bring us a banner. i see this starting line up filled with roll players and six men.

if i'm with yogi, we're talking about in 3 years, and the thunder have to beat whomever's in the west first.
the thunder's window of opportunity is closing, esp if the westbook injury is a naggy one and then kendrick perkins is just trash.
you all HAVE to, HAVE to remember that we are in the East.
With this roster, our biggest issues will be the Heat (who I think will have an aged Dwayne Wade and possibly no BOsh or Lebron by then) and the Pacers (who have lots of talent and could have to deal with players getting money hungry).
Very funny. Lebron and Bosh are leaving the Heat and the window is closing on the Thunder, plus that Pacers team is getting broken up (presumably even if they win a championship). Where do these ideas come from? I'll give some fans credit for unfailing enthusiasm for the Celtics but this kind of stuff is totally delusional.

Everyone knows the Heat can't pay for those 3 salaries season after next unless someone takes a dramatic paycut....

How isn't the Thunder's window closing? If Houston gets Dwight that AUTOMATICALLY makes them a contender and a HUGE threat to anyone in the West. Kevin Durant went to the finals last year and got a second round exit this year...what's making them/him better in the next 3 years ESPECIALLY IF RUSSEL ISN'T 100%?

Roy Hibbert is on a max contract while Paul George is getting 2.5 mil this year and 3.3 next year...umm...what STAR do you know is getting paid that little? Pacers are already over the cap and West is a Free Agent in 2014...

Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #106 on: May 26, 2013, 02:27:25 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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lol... Yogi/Celtics18 ...  lot of effort spent arguing whether Tony Parker is slightly better than Rondo (Parker is a back-to-back All-NBA 2nd team ... Rondo was All-NBA 3rd team last year) ... or whether Sully's ceiling will ever reach SPlitter's current level...

You're missing my overall point here.  You remove Pierce/KG from Boston (a 41 win also-ran) and claim the remaining core is a future title contender is almost as foolish as removing DUncan/Ginobili from the Spurs (a 58 win contender) and claiming the remaining core is a future title contender.

Thread is nonsense.  Remove KG and Pierce from Boston and you're lookin at a lotto ticket.

Not at all

1.  I was responding to a very specific comparison between the 4 Spurs players and 4 Celtics.  This was not a part of the greater argument. 

2.  Ironically, while accusing us of missing the point, it is you who missed the OP's original point.  As pointed out earlier, the potential for these 4 being a championship core is in the future.  In 3 years time, Rondo and Green will be in their absolute prime like Parker is now.  Bradley and Sullinger will be 24 and 25 entering their prime years.  Considering that all 4 of those Celtics are young and coming off surgeries/injuries that held them back this season it is not unreasonable to expect they would improve a lot over the next three years.  If Fab can develop also in that time you're looking at potentially

MVP level player in Rondo
Lockdown 3 and D wing Bradley
20 5 5 Jeff Green
17 10 Sullinger
Shot blocking, long and mobile 7ft presence in Fab Melo (or Steven Adams).

This core is young, athletic, long, and can shoot.  Great balance of defense and offense.  Rondo, Green and Sully can dominate the post.  Add the further draft picks and cap space with the retirement of KG, Paul and Terry (also Bass who may or may not be extended) why can't this be a championship core in 3 years?  This is close to the best case scenario but we are talking about potential.

thank you
and we aren't even talking about playoffs
i dont think sully gets to 17ppg, but even if we get a 7footer who can score, i'm not sure why ppl are so pessimistic.

with the exception of injuries, you're asking everyone to do what they did with MINOR developments (JG and his left, AB and his long distance which was excellent season before last, Rondo and his long distance which was obviously developing, Sully catch 2 - 3 more rebounds per game than he did in january 2013).

at worst, you need a center who can run the floor. that's it...i'd even take a deandre jordan on that team.

only thing i agree with is the team is a bit small, but again, you get a 7 footer and hope rondo is still fast, i'm not sure there's too many problems.
the only problem, it still wont win a championship. there are too many better teams that are ELITE. this roster wont beat the thunder. it may be entertaining but it wont bring us a banner. i see this starting line up filled with roll players and six men.

if i'm with yogi, we're talking about in 3 years, and the thunder have to beat whomever's in the west first.
the thunder's window of opportunity is closing, esp if the westbook injury is a naggy one and then kendrick perkins is just trash.
you all HAVE to, HAVE to remember that we are in the East.
With this roster, our biggest issues will be the Heat (who I think will have an aged Dwayne Wade and possibly no BOsh or Lebron by then) and the Pacers (who have lots of talent and could have to deal with players getting money hungry).
Very funny. Lebron and Bosh are leaving the Heat and the window is closing on the Thunder, plus that Pacers team is getting broken up (presumably even if they win a championship). Where do these ideas come from? I'll give some fans credit for unfailing enthusiasm for the Celtics but this kind of stuff is totally delusional.

Everyone knows the Heat can't pay for those 3 salaries season after next unless someone takes a dramatic paycut....

How isn't the Thunder's window closing? If Houston gets Dwight that AUTOMATICALLY makes them a contender and a HUGE threat to anyone in the West. Kevin Durant went to the finals last year and got a second round exit this year...what's making them/him better in the next 3 years ESPECIALLY IF RUSSEL ISN'T 100%?

Roy Hibbert is on a max contract while Paul George is getting 2.5 mil this year and 3.3 next year...umm...what STAR do you know is getting paid that little? Pacers are already over the cap and West is a Free Agent in 2014...
Regarding the Thunder, it's very simple: Kevin Durant.  Would you argue that he is not one of the top 3 players in the NBA?  An injury to ANY OTHER PLAYER ON THAT TEAM INCLUDING WESTBROOK does not mean their window is closing.

Regarding the Heat: Yes they will have cap problems, but how do you jump to that meaning Lebron and Bosh are gone?

I accept your point about the Pacers but again why does that mean th team will be broken up and the Celtics will be top dog in the East in 3 years?

In all 3 of thes examples the logic doesn't hold together, it's just pure speculation.

Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #107 on: May 27, 2013, 03:42:05 AM »

Offline vjcsmoke

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Thats all I have to say. I see a lot of folks saying that a team with that core will win no more that 35 games. That is completely self imposed misery quite typical of Boston sports fans.

Im not saying that means they will win the title next year but within the next several years, that team will win a title. You heard it here first.

LOL.  Wow.  Unless that Center is the next Shaq, that ain't gonna happen.  That core is good for 5th to 8th in the East.  But no serious title runs.  Unfortunately the Celtics are solidly mediocre and thus have no chance at the lottery.

Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #108 on: May 27, 2013, 04:32:13 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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anything can happen in the draft, but i'm pretty sure Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully will not win a title. And to the person saying no one expected the Pacers, well George and Hibbert are both very legit (and underrated by most non-Pacer fans).


*sigh*
are you kidding me?

Roy Hibbert wanted a max contract and everyone was extremely confused. Everyone laughed at him. Everyone said he wasn't worth it. Everyone said he wasn't good. In 2012 HE WAS AN AVERAGE TO SLIGHT LY ABOVE AVG CENTER!!

No one saw this Paul George thing coming from a mile away. What evidence did we have of him becoming a star this year? He was almost useless last season. Now he's helping carrying his team against the Heat?

The Pacers are supposed to be Danny Granger and David West's team. Don't try to use what we know as logic for what we shoulda known at the beginning of the season. NO ONE saw this coming.

And to that point, the OP is saying anything is possible.
Just to correct you on this post...

Actually dude Roy Hibbert got the max contract offer from Portland, because he was an all-star defense-first center in a league currently lacking in quality big men.  Indiana matched the offer.  So yeah maybe he was a little overpaid, but how "overpaid" can a 7-2 280 pound 25 year old all-star center really be?

As for Paul George...

Here's a quote from me on this forum on January 27, 2012:

Quote
There was a (probably BS) rumor a couple weeks ago that the Pacers were considering trading Paul George, Amundson (expiring cap filler) and a draft pick for Pierce.  No word on if it was a 1st or 2nd round draft pick.

I checked the Pacer forums and they were like "no freakin way... Paul George is a phenom!! Pierce is old!!... I wouldn't even trade Granger for him!!"...

Important to point out that in January 2012, Paul George was merely averaging 11 points 5 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 block in 30 minutes ... so I took this as homerism from an excited Pacer fanbase.  But clearly they knew what they were talking about.   

So basically, you're wrong.  Saying that "no one" saw the Paul George thing coming just isn't true.  Pacer fans liked him over Granger even at the beginning of last season and thought they had a "phenom" on their hands.  They completely scoffed at the idea of trading George for an elderly (34 years old at the time) Paul Pierce.

FYI:  Here's that trade rumor from Jan 2012: http://www.ibtimes.com/paul-pierce-trade-rumors-pacers-might-be-frontrunners-land-forward-398030  ... it was very likely bogus, but I was hugely in favor of it at the time.  Indiana had the ability to swallow PIerce's contract... it would have given us bluechip prospect in Paul George + 14 mil in additional cap space.  I posted in about 5 threads about about it.  Lol. 
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 04:46:03 AM by LarBrd33 »

Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #109 on: May 27, 2013, 04:37:04 AM »

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I would say that it is more likely we lose any of those guys to a career ending injury than winning a title.

In fact, that may have already happened. Because we don't know, and as some of us are saying, "anything is possible!"

With that in mind, here's some "anything is possible" scenarios.

Rondo comes back a step slower, with a worse jump shot. His confidence in his game shaken, he drives to the hoop even less frequently, and is always a crunch-time liability because he still can't hit his free throws. He continues to lead the league in assists while the team goes 20-62, only to recreate himself on a different team years later ala Jason Kidd.

Bradley never plays more than 60 games in a full, non-lockout season. His shot never develops, and after spending year after year taking abuse on his body for his defense he walks away from hoops to pursue motivational speaking.


Sullinger comes back from his back surgery with the same diminished games as Dwight Howard. Is a solid bench player, but definitely not a starter.

Fab Melo is forced to retire after five successive non-game related concussions.

Jeff Green remains Jeff Green.


After all, "anything is possible!" ::)


Disclaimer: I obviously don't advocate for any of the above. But saying "hey guys, we don't know, they could win it all!" in response to any kind of counter-point is the epitome of lazy thinking.
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Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #110 on: May 27, 2013, 05:47:07 AM »

Offline LatterDayCelticsfan

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I reckon what the foumder of this thread has been trying to say n and is being consistently misread or ignored is not that if KG and Pierce retired right now this core would waltz to a championship right away, but that they have the capacity of growing into a contender on a trajectory quite similar to the Pacers core have been on  the past 3 seasons 
Kobe is Swahili for tortoise. Look it up!

Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #111 on: May 27, 2013, 06:52:49 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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The Pacers have not won jack though.

Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #112 on: May 27, 2013, 10:37:32 AM »

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I would say that it is more likely we lose any of those guys to a career ending injury than winning a title.

In fact, that may have already happened. Because we don't know, and as some of us are saying, "anything is possible!"

With that in mind, here's some "anything is possible" scenarios.

Rondo comes back a step slower, with a worse jump shot. His confidence in his game shaken, he drives to the hoop even less frequently, and is always a crunch-time liability because he still can't hit his free throws. He continues to lead the league in assists while the team goes 20-62, only to recreate himself on a different team years later ala Jason Kidd.

Bradley never plays more than 60 games in a full, non-lockout season. His shot never develops, and after spending year after year taking abuse on his body for his defense he walks away from hoops to pursue motivational speaking.


Sullinger comes back from his back surgery with the same diminished games as Dwight Howard. Is a solid bench player, but definitely not a starter.

Fab Melo is forced to retire after five successive non-game related concussions.

Jeff Green remains Jeff Green.


After all, "anything is possible!" ::)


Disclaimer: I obviously don't advocate for any of the above. But saying "hey guys, we don't know, they could win it all!" in response to any kind of counter-point is the epitome of lazy thinking.

This is all true.  Or could be.

Either way, the question for rosters go, for me, is whether the pieces fit and the needed jobs get done.  The '08 and '86 teams had players that were nearly prototypical for their position, e.g. shooting guards who could shoot, power forwards with size and power, a legit pivot, etc.

I don't see a closer.  That's huge.

I don't see enough 3pt shooting to open the floor in the half-court.  The idea that we can just run on every possession is magical thinking.  Teams need to be able to execute.

That center would have to be a dominant big with that group because there isn't a #1 talent on that roster, now or potentially.

Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #113 on: May 27, 2013, 01:29:16 PM »

Offline kgainez

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I would say that it is more likely we lose any of those guys to a career ending injury than winning a title.

In fact, that may have already happened. Because we don't know, and as some of us are saying, "anything is possible!"

With that in mind, here's some "anything is possible" scenarios.

Rondo comes back a step slower, with a worse jump shot. His confidence in his game shaken, he drives to the hoop even less frequently, and is always a crunch-time liability because he still can't hit his free throws. He continues to lead the league in assists while the team goes 20-62, only to recreate himself on a different team years later ala Jason Kidd.

Bradley never plays more than 60 games in a full, non-lockout season. His shot never develops, and after spending year after year taking abuse on his body for his defense he walks away from hoops to pursue motivational speaking.


Sullinger comes back from his back surgery with the same diminished games as Dwight Howard. Is a solid bench player, but definitely not a starter.

Fab Melo is forced to retire after five successive non-game related concussions.

Jeff Green remains Jeff Green.


After all, "anything is possible!" ::)


Disclaimer: I obviously don't advocate for any of the above. But saying "hey guys, we don't know, they could win it all!" in response to any kind of counter-point is the epitome of lazy thinking.

I already did that
but you're just being ridiculous

Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #114 on: May 27, 2013, 01:30:15 PM »

Offline kgainez

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I reckon what the foumder of this thread has been trying to say n and is being consistently misread or ignored is not that if KG and Pierce retired right now this core would waltz to a championship right away, but that they have the capacity of growing into a contender on a trajectory quite similar to the Pacers core have been on  the past 3 seasons

gracias

Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #115 on: May 27, 2013, 01:44:24 PM »

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I reckon what the foumder of this thread has been trying to say n and is being consistently misread or ignored is not that if KG and Pierce retired right now this core would waltz to a championship right away, but that they have the capacity of growing into a contender on a trajectory quite similar to the Pacers core have been on  the past 3 seasons

gracias

And here are a few things that need to "grow" in this case:

Rondo would need to be an 80% FT shooter, and drive, draw fouls, and make FTs to stop runs, get points, etc.

Bradley would need to become an above-average 3PT shooter on a consistent basis, quick-release, etc.

Green would need some better, quicker iso moves on the wing.  And a left hand.  And more reliable, better 3pt shooting.

Sully would need to grow more into a Barkley than an Al Harrington.  He could still be a Brandon Hunter after the back surgery...

And then that center would need to be a legit 7' guy, for starters, defensive monster, and 12/10 machine.

So...good luck with all that coming together, eh?

Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #116 on: May 27, 2013, 02:50:39 PM »

Offline Yogi

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I reckon what the foumder of this thread has been trying to say n and is being consistently misread or ignored is not that if KG and Pierce retired right now this core would waltz to a championship right away, but that they have the capacity of growing into a contender on a trajectory quite similar to the Pacers core have been on  the past 3 seasons

gracias

And here are a few things that need to "grow" in this case:

Rondo would need to be an 80% FT shooter, and drive, draw fouls, and make FTs to stop runs, get points, etc.

Bradley would need to become an above-average 3PT shooter on a consistent basis, quick-release, etc.

Green would need some better, quicker iso moves on the wing.  And a left hand.  And more reliable, better 3pt shooting.

Sully would need to grow more into a Barkley than an Al Harrington.  He could still be a Brandon Hunter after the back surgery...

And then that center would need to be a legit 7' guy, for starters, defensive monster, and 12/10 machine.

So...good luck with all that coming together, eh?
You mean a bunch of young talented, hard working 20-year-olds have to improve their games?  Yeah it is kind of stupid for fans to expect or hope for that to happen...  ::)
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Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #117 on: May 27, 2013, 03:08:45 PM »

Offline kgainez

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I reckon what the foumder of this thread has been trying to say n and is being consistently misread or ignored is not that if KG and Pierce retired right now this core would waltz to a championship right away, but that they have the capacity of growing into a contender on a trajectory quite similar to the Pacers core have been on  the past 3 seasons

gracias

And here are a few things that need to "grow" in this case:

Rondo would need to be an 80% FT shooter, and drive, draw fouls, and make FTs to stop runs, get points, etc.

Bradley would need to become an above-average 3PT shooter on a consistent basis, quick-release, etc.

Green would need some better, quicker iso moves on the wing.  And a left hand.  And more reliable, better 3pt shooting.

Sully would need to grow more into a Barkley than an Al Harrington.  He could still be a Brandon Hunter after the back surgery...

And then that center would need to be a legit 7' guy, for starters, defensive monster, and 12/10 machine.

So...good luck with all that coming together, eh?

all things we talked about
all things that are possible in 3 years

and in my personal opinion and speculation -- I've seen Rondo do this...AB was 41% from the 3pt year before his surgery, JG has a left and just isn't that confident in it -- also think that's a minor change as i think he's more than capable -- sully has moves and range, just wasn't utilized as much and ur center...well i'm not sure, but i'm open

but again. uve got 3 years to figure that out. and i think it could happen as quickly as 2014-15

Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #118 on: May 27, 2013, 03:32:55 PM »

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I reckon what the foumder of this thread has been trying to say n and is being consistently misread or ignored is not that if KG and Pierce retired right now this core would waltz to a championship right away, but that they have the capacity of growing into a contender on a trajectory quite similar to the Pacers core have been on  the past 3 seasons

gracias

And here are a few things that need to "grow" in this case:

Rondo would need to be an 80% FT shooter, and drive, draw fouls, and make FTs to stop runs, get points, etc.

Bradley would need to become an above-average 3PT shooter on a consistent basis, quick-release, etc.

Green would need some better, quicker iso moves on the wing.  And a left hand.  And more reliable, better 3pt shooting.

Sully would need to grow more into a Barkley than an Al Harrington.  He could still be a Brandon Hunter after the back surgery...

And then that center would need to be a legit 7' guy, for starters, defensive monster, and 12/10 machine.

So...good luck with all that coming together, eh?
You mean a bunch of young talented, hard working 20-year-olds have to improve their games?  Yeah it is kind of stupid for fans to expect or hope for that to happen...  ::)

I really wish we could get rid of the eye-roll icon.  It's rude in person, and doesn't seem much better on screen.

The point, of course, is that of those four, there is precisely zero players that can do what would be needed by that group to contend.

The point is also that the chances of all four making the strides necessary is unlikely.

Never mind health, which should be a concern for at least Bradley, and being undersized for position, which is true at two positions (harder to cover than one).

Cheer, of course, but I see a bunch of quarters looking for a trade before a post-KG/Pierce banner goes up.

Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #119 on: May 27, 2013, 04:17:56 PM »

Offline Yogi

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I really wish we could get rid of the eye-roll icon.  It's rude in person, and doesn't seem much better on screen.

The point, of course, is that of those four, there is precisely zero players that can do what would be needed by that group to contend.

The point is also that the chances of all four making the strides necessary is unlikely.

Never mind health, which should be a concern for at least Bradley, and being undersized for position, which is true at two positions (harder to cover than one).

Cheer, of course, but I see a bunch of quarters looking for a trade before a post-KG/Pierce banner goes up.

That's one opinion among many others which is fine.  You have presented 0 evidence to support your opinion. 

The truth is Bradley and Sullinger have shown above average NBA abilities at 21 and 22 years.  They have 5 years to hone their skills before they enter their prime. 

Rondo has improved every single year, and he's went against multiple MVPs and superstars in the post season matching and even outshining them. 

Green has never been better than he was the last half a season and post season in Boston.  He is still not fully recovered. 

Every one in the world knew Fab was a multi-year project when drafted, and I am excited to see him in Summer League.  He's only 23. 

Unless you are a fortune teller you don't know their potential.  Age, work ethic, character, talent, good coaching, good player development, HOF role models are all in these kids' favor.  It would be unreasonable to expect this group not to go far.  Add to that a GM who knows what it takes to win a championship, and owners who are willing to pay.  They have as good a shot at a championship as any core. 

Bradley maybe undersized but it has shown no effect on his ability to guard bigger shooting gurads.  Probably because or his spectacular athleticism and length.  As he adds upper body strength after recovering from surgery he would become even better. 

Sullinger is NOT undersized no matter what criteria you use compared to NBA players. 

In fact, Rondo, Bradley, Green, Sullinger, and Melo are ALL very long for their position.  Rondo, Bradley, Green and Melo are above average athletes for their positions.  Rondo, Green and Sullinger have above average IQ for their positions.  All of them are + defenders. 
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 04:33:21 PM by Yogi »
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A. Davis/K. Olynyk/M. Scott
D. Cousins/A. Baynes/V. Faverani
Rights: A. Abrines, R. Neto, L. Jean-Charles  Coach: M. Williams

 

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