Author Topic: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title  (Read 22084 times)

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Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #60 on: May 25, 2013, 01:24:54 AM »

Offline syfy9

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But defensively, this could be the best in the league.

Yeah! You bet!


If you exclude the Grizzlies, the Pacers, the Bulls, the Heat, and the Thunder (along with any other promising defensive team, such as the 76ers, Wizards, etc.).
I like Marcus Smart

Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #61 on: May 25, 2013, 02:44:24 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Green is the only reliable scorer on this team. But defensively, this could be the best in the league.

A team of Rondo, Bradley, Green, SUlly and (insert random scrub... Bass?  Melo?) would be awful defensively.

"Even though he’s just a month shy of his 37th birthday, Garnett remains the key to the Celtics defense. Boston has allowed 96.2 points per 100 possessions with Garnett anchoring the back line this season, compared with 104.6 points-per-100 with him off the court. That’s like saying the Celtics are a bit better than the No. 1-ranked Indiana Pacers’ defense with KG, and only a tiny sliver better than the 22nd-ranked Toronto Raptors’ D without him."

Without Pierce and KG, this team is headed towards lotto-ville. 

Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #62 on: May 25, 2013, 03:45:05 AM »

Offline Kuberski1

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Sorry, but no it will not....would be lucky to make the POs

Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #63 on: May 25, 2013, 04:50:09 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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I think people are skippng over the OPs point that he's not talking about this upcoming season..
I think with that core we are 7/8th seed this upcoming season, WHICH I think may be overachieving for them. If that happens and we get the right pieces, I'm not sure how not.

Rondo continues hitting 45% of his jumpers and even 30-35% of his 3s this season, takes on more of a scoring load + AB increasing his percentages 5 or so % puts him at 36% from the 3 and 45% from the field = this is absolutely possible thanks to the stats and its evident RR been working on his jumper and I expect ABs %s to go back up with healed shoulders and more focus on being an SG not a PG.

This right here, I think, will make a WORLD of difference. At some point you have to start respecting RR and ABs shots. Let's not forget, that AB was shooting 49% from the field and 40% from the 3 before he got hurt 2011-2012 season. I'm not sure why so many of us have forgotten this. He can shoot.

I think Jeff Green is then forced into the #2 go to guy position...maybe even first. And I don't think he'll produce right away, but I think he and Rondo will do great things. I also am not sure why people think 20+ ppg/5.5rebs/1 block a game is too much for Jeff. That's essentially what he did this past season as a starter.

If he keeps that production AND develops a left (which can happen in 2 seasons), I don't see why he wouldn't be even better than what we imagined. Let me also note I'm not a person who thinks JG isn't AGGRESSIVE enough. I just think that's his style of play, so I don't count on that. In other words, JG played FINE to me.

Sully will be someone to look at but he's stood up to Tyson Chandler -- that's when I knew he was great. Top 5 rebonder? Eh but hard worker in the post, def. Work on his post game, we know he can hit the jumper -- coach will just have to do that for us. Maybe work into a pick n pop game for he and RR.

How are these things not solid for the 2014-2015 season? I think if we keep JET, even Lee on the bench, that'd be spectacular. If you switch out Eric Gordon for AB, I'm not sure...Gordon can still shoot. But he's expensive.

I think you have to keep Shav even if it's just for depth purposes. And bring back LB or keep J. Craw for bench scorer purposes.
Have to also keep in mind that this starting 5 is under 30 even in 2 years. So that, too.

It's really hard to argue against some of this esp thinking in 2 years and considering development.

With all due respect, you don't have to "argue against some of this," even taking into account the fact that most of us can see into the future--and those of us that can clearly aren't advertising themselves.

All you have to disagree with is the idea that this core, assuming that CENTER is not a franchise-changing talent, will not win a title. The fact that the rest of your post is far beyond most every-card-falling-the-right-way scenarios for our team is really small fish compared to that.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #64 on: May 25, 2013, 06:57:00 AM »

Offline mr. dee

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Green is the only reliable scorer on this team. But defensively, this could be the best in the league.

A team of Rondo, Bradley, Green, SUlly and (insert random scrub... Bass?  Melo?) would be awful defensively.

"Even though he’s just a month shy of his 37th birthday, Garnett remains the key to the Celtics defense. Boston has allowed 96.2 points per 100 possessions with Garnett anchoring the back line this season, compared with 104.6 points-per-100 with him off the court. That’s like saying the Celtics are a bit better than the No. 1-ranked Indiana Pacers’ defense with KG, and only a tiny sliver better than the 22nd-ranked Toronto Raptors’ D without him."

Without Pierce and KG, this team is headed towards lotto-ville.
Who said it have to be a scrub? It doesn't have to be a franchise player. Just a blue collar, solid center. If we can could only draft Noel then we'll have secure KG's apparent heir.

And yes, those core could be one of the best, if not best defensive teams on the league with or without a star center, regardless of the record.

Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #65 on: May 25, 2013, 07:23:06 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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This thread is basically like if a Dallas fan posted:  "A core of Brandon Wright, OJ Mayo, Jae Crowder, Jared Cunningham and Darren Collison will win a title"

Or I guess if you're being extremely generous on the talent evaluation, it's like saying "A post-Duncan/Ginobili core of Parker-Green-Leonard-PF-Splitter will win a title"

Except that Parker-D.Green-Leonard-PF-Splitter is far superior to Rondo-Bradley-J.Green-Sully-Center.

Parker = Rondo
Green > Bradley
Leonard > Green
Splitter > Sully
PF = C
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 07:36:08 AM by LarBrd33 »

Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #66 on: May 25, 2013, 08:43:51 AM »

Offline mr. dee

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This thread is basically like if a Dallas fan posted:  "A core of Brandon Wright, OJ Mayo, Jae Crowder, Jared Cunningham and Darren Collison will win a title"

Or I guess if you're being extremely generous on the talent evaluation, it's like saying "A post-Duncan/Ginobili core of Parker-Green-Leonard-PF-Splitter will win a title"

Except that Parker-D.Green-Leonard-PF-Splitter is far superior to Rondo-Bradley-J.Green-Sully-Center.

Parker = Rondo
Green > Bradley
Leonard > Green
Splitter > Sully
PF = C

Whoa, I wouldn't go that far. I heard someone in SA fanbase wants Splitter's head for some dumbplays. You wouldn't even hear us wanting Sully's.

Green over Leonard? I'm not sure either. If Kawhi can drop 43 against the heat, we can talk. Defensively? He have the edge over Green. But Jeff isn't a bad defender either.

D. Green over Bradley? This could be a toss up. Both are kinda streaky but Green is more consistent. Bradley wins in defense though.

Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #67 on: May 25, 2013, 10:09:05 AM »

Offline CelticsFan9

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I'll try to give my most optimistic view on this:

Pre-injury, I felt like Rondo was a consistent jumper away from superstardom.  It would have catapulted him from third best PG to 1(A (behind Chris Paul), and put in in the top 10 players in the league conversation (pre-injury I had him top 15).  So, let's say Rondo comes back relatively the same in terms of athleticism (possible, considering how much we've advanced with rehab, surgery, etc), AND Rondo has developed a jump shot out to the three point line.  That's a guy who could be your franchise player.

I still don't really have a good read on Bradley, if only because he's never really had a chance to play a FULL season with Rondo.  He had that stretch in 11/12 where he was absolutely spectacular, but then last year after Rondo went down (especially in the playoffs), he struggled mightily with the PG duties.  I'd like to see what he and Rondo can do with a full season of playing together, as I think they could be pretty disruptive defensively.  Hopefully, Bradley works on his spot-up shooting and finishing around the basket this offseason (because he doesn't have to deal with an injury for once) and has a good training camp.

Green is really intriguing.  He's a guy who can explode for 40 one night, and then drop 9 the next.  For him, I think it's all about confidence, consistency, and creativity this summer.  If he can develop that mentality of "Hey, I'm looking like I need to be the min scorer for this team, I need to take every game seriously" then I like him as our starting SF.  If he's confident and gets in his rhythm, he's an electric scorer.  As long as he consistently puts in the effort, he can drive, shoot, post, etc.  Also, I'd like to see him get some new moves this year (especially moves GOING TO HIS LEFT).  That would really open up his game.  And his defense really impressed me this year, especially the shot-blocking.

I'm a big Sully fan.  Love the hustle, banging, post-presence, everything.  If he could get some more touches in the post, I'd love to see how our offense would develop.  Looking back at his college game, the guy just bullied people ion the block, so I could see him just scoring right at the rim.  His passing is also very good for a big dude, so if teams double, he could kick it out, and get the ball swinging around the perimeter until a shot opens up.  His defense wasn't that great last year, but he also played less than half a season, so I expect him to improve.  He has the potential to be a starter if he improves the defense.

Here's my initial reaction  (and ultimately my actual view) on that core:

No shooting, not big enough, scrappy and scrambling on defense, 30-52.

Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #68 on: May 25, 2013, 10:21:50 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Green is the only reliable scorer on this team. But defensively, this could be the best in the league.

A team of Rondo, Bradley, Green, SUlly and (insert random scrub... Bass?  Melo?) would be awful defensively.

"Even though he’s just a month shy of his 37th birthday, Garnett remains the key to the Celtics defense. Boston has allowed 96.2 points per 100 possessions with Garnett anchoring the back line this season, compared with 104.6 points-per-100 with him off the court. That’s like saying the Celtics are a bit better than the No. 1-ranked Indiana Pacers’ defense with KG, and only a tiny sliver better than the 22nd-ranked Toronto Raptors’ D without him."

Without Pierce and KG, this team is headed towards lotto-ville.

  You post numbers earlier in the season when the defense was 18 points better with KG than without him. The reason it dropped to 8 was because the defense was playing as well without KG as it was with him from January on.

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/56110/life-without-kg-a-defensive-travesty-for-the-celtics

   "But as John Schuhmann of NBA.com first noted on Twitter a few weeks back, Garnett’s life-or-death impact on Boston’s D mysteriously vanished upon the return of Avery Bradley. Since Bradley’s January 2 debut, Boston has been almost exactly as good defensively regardless of whether Garnett plays or sits, and they’ve been a bit better offensively, per NBA.com."

Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #69 on: May 25, 2013, 12:15:42 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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This thread is basically like if a Dallas fan posted:  "A core of Brandon Wright, OJ Mayo, Jae Crowder, Jared Cunningham and Darren Collison will win a title"

Or I guess if you're being extremely generous on the talent evaluation, it's like saying "A post-Duncan/Ginobili core of Parker-Green-Leonard-PF-Splitter will win a title"

Except that Parker-D.Green-Leonard-PF-Splitter is far superior to Rondo-Bradley-J.Green-Sully-Center.

Parker = Rondo
Green > Bradley
Leonard > Green
Splitter > Sully
PF = C

That Spurs comparison isn't terrible.  Of course, the key difference is that their star point guard is four years older and entering the tail end of his prime, while ours is just entering his prime.  D. Green, Leonard, and Splitter being far superior to Bradley, J. Green, and Sully is just completely off base.

Also, Splitter is already 28, while Sully is only two months removed from legally being able to purchase his first alcoholic beverage.   

The Mavs comparison is a joke. 
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PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #70 on: May 25, 2013, 03:22:08 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Green is the only reliable scorer on this team. But defensively, this could be the best in the league.

A team of Rondo, Bradley, Green, SUlly and (insert random scrub... Bass?  Melo?) would be awful defensively.

"Even though he’s just a month shy of his 37th birthday, Garnett remains the key to the Celtics defense. Boston has allowed 96.2 points per 100 possessions with Garnett anchoring the back line this season, compared with 104.6 points-per-100 with him off the court. That’s like saying the Celtics are a bit better than the No. 1-ranked Indiana Pacers’ defense with KG, and only a tiny sliver better than the 22nd-ranked Toronto Raptors’ D without him."

Without Pierce and KG, this team is headed towards lotto-ville.

  You post numbers earlier in the season when the defense was 18 points better with KG than without him. The reason it dropped to 8 was because the defense was playing as well without KG as it was with him from January on.

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/56110/life-without-kg-a-defensive-travesty-for-the-celtics

   "But as John Schuhmann of NBA.com first noted on Twitter a few weeks back, Garnett’s life-or-death impact on Boston’s D mysteriously vanished upon the return of Avery Bradley. Since Bradley’s January 2 debut, Boston has been almost exactly as good defensively regardless of whether Garnett plays or sits, and they’ve been a bit better offensively, per NBA.com."
Actually, the quote I posted was from immediately prior to the playoffs starting.  Is it inaccurate?

The quote you posted about Bradley was from February about a month into Bradley's debut.  His impact was short-lived during a winning streak.

As D.O.S pointed out in another thread:

"Of all players with at least his 574 total offensive possessions, Bradley ranked 183rd out of 187 qualifying players (the only ones worse: Rondo, Michael Beasley, Alexey Shved, and Ricky Rubio). Here's two more [dang]ing stats to consider: The Celtics were plus-26 when Bradley was off the court, but minus-44 when he was on it. And despite his individual defensive efforts, Boston's defensive rating actually remained nearly static with (100.3) or without (100.4) him. Bradley's postseason struggles contributed to the minus next to his mark. "

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4705075/report-card-avery-bradley-3 "


"The Celtics were minus-130 in the 1,946 minutes Garnett was on the bench this season, but plus-112 in his 2,022 minutes of court time. Dig deeper and Boston's defensive rating (points allowed per 100 possessions) was a staggering 104.6 with Garnett on the bench and a minuscule 96.2 when he was on the floor. Yes, even at an advanced age, Garnett remains so vital to this team and its success, particularly on the defensive end."

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4705058/report-card-kevin-garnett-4
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 03:27:50 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #71 on: May 25, 2013, 03:30:28 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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This thread is basically like if a Dallas fan posted:  "A core of Brandon Wright, OJ Mayo, Jae Crowder, Jared Cunningham and Darren Collison will win a title"

Or I guess if you're being extremely generous on the talent evaluation, it's like saying "A post-Duncan/Ginobili core of Parker-Green-Leonard-PF-Splitter will win a title"

Except that Parker-D.Green-Leonard-PF-Splitter is far superior to Rondo-Bradley-J.Green-Sully-Center.

Parker = Rondo
Green > Bradley
Leonard > Green
Splitter > Sully
PF = C

That Spurs comparison isn't terrible.  Of course, the key difference is that their star point guard is four years older and entering the tail end of his prime, while ours is just entering his prime.  D. Green, Leonard, and Splitter being far superior to Bradley, J. Green, and Sully is just completely off base.

No it isn't.

In fact...

Parker > Rondo
D. Green > Bradley
Leonard > J. Green
Splitter > Sully

... and it's easier to find a PF than a C so...

PF > C

Sure Splitter is older than Sully, but Splitter is better than Sully.

Sure Jeff Green is older than Leonard, but Leonard is better than Jeff Green.


Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #72 on: May 25, 2013, 03:55:23 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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This thread is basically like if a Dallas fan posted:  "A core of Brandon Wright, OJ Mayo, Jae Crowder, Jared Cunningham and Darren Collison will win a title"

Or I guess if you're being extremely generous on the talent evaluation, it's like saying "A post-Duncan/Ginobili core of Parker-Green-Leonard-PF-Splitter will win a title"

Except that Parker-D.Green-Leonard-PF-Splitter is far superior to Rondo-Bradley-J.Green-Sully-Center.

Parker = Rondo
Green > Bradley
Leonard > Green
Splitter > Sully
PF = C

That Spurs comparison isn't terrible.  Of course, the key difference is that their star point guard is four years older and entering the tail end of his prime, while ours is just entering his prime.  D. Green, Leonard, and Splitter being far superior to Bradley, J. Green, and Sully is just completely off base.

No it isn't.

In fact...

Parker > Rondo
D. Green > Bradley
Leonard > J. Green
Splitter > Sully

... and it's easier to find a PF than a C so...

PF > C

Sure Splitter is older than Sully, but Splitter is better than Sully.

Sure Jeff Green is older than Leonard, but Leonard is better than Jeff Green.

Not only is Parker four years older than Rondo, but he's also not better.  Simply restating that as an unsupported fact doesn't make it true.  Splitter is better than Sully right now, but at 21, Sully has shown that he has a decent upside.  I wouldn't be surprised if he was as productive as Tiago Splitter as early as next season. 

Sure, Leonard is younger than Green, and I really like him as a player, but he hasn't shown me anything to make me think that he's going to be a superstar style wing in this league.  I think he'll always be what he is, a very solid, high IQ, defensive minded wing.  That's not a bad thing to have, but Jeff Green, as much as some dislike him, will probably always be a more explosive scorer. 

Danny Green vs. Bradley?:  Whatever.  I like both as solid role players.  I would submit that Avery has a little more upside, but that's probably debatable.

We definitely need to find a good starting center at some point over the next couple of years.  That surely won't be an easy task, but also certainly not an impossibility.

You haven't really provided anything to back up your assertion other than a bunch of ">" marks. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #73 on: May 25, 2013, 04:05:14 PM »

Offline Yogi

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Any one can just claim x>y or y>x.  Post evidence to support your claims or it is useless. 

Comparing Bradley and Green to Leonard and D. Green is difficult because Bradley is playing off double shoulder surgery and Green is playing fresh off heart surgery. 

Comparing Jeff Greens stats in his second year against Leonard, they are basically identical.  Leonard of course had the luxury of playing with Parker, Giniobili, Duncan and Pop who knew how to win.  Green had to play with a very raw Russel Westbrook and James Harden and a young rapidly developing Kevin Durant with a new coach. 

Bradley was playing out of position.  Imagine if Tony Parker went down and Danny Green had to play point guard.  I guarantee it would not look pretty. 

I am not sure what the claim that Splitter is better than Sullinger is based on.  Sullinger is just more versatile offensively being a much better shooter and post up threat.  Splitter is 7 ft and a stronger finisher. 

Sullinger also was playing in some physical limitations before surgery.  We would have to wait a year or two to even begin to evaluate Sullinger as an NBA player.  It wasn't long ago that Splitters inability to make free throws and not foul hurt San Antonio against the Grizzlies in the first round.  Obviously Splitter has improved but this was his third year and he is 7 years older than Sullinger. 
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Re: A core of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Center will win a title
« Reply #74 on: May 25, 2013, 04:18:47 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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lol... Yogi/Celtics18 ...  lot of effort spent arguing whether Tony Parker is slightly better than Rondo (Parker is a back-to-back All-NBA 2nd team ... Rondo was All-NBA 3rd team last year) ... or whether Sully's ceiling will ever reach SPlitter's current level...

You're missing my overall point here.  You remove Pierce/KG from Boston (a 41 win also-ran) and claim the remaining core is a future title contender is almost as foolish as removing DUncan/Ginobili from the Spurs (a 58 win contender) and claiming the remaining core is a future title contender.

Thread is nonsense.  Remove KG and Pierce from Boston and you're lookin at a lotto ticket.