Poll

Would ya if KG and PP are gone?

Yes
5 (15.6%)
No, but I believe the Celtics should tank
5 (15.6%)
No, and I don't believe the Celtics should tank
22 (68.8%)
Not sure/Don't know
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Author Topic: If KG/PP Retire, Would You Swap Rosters with the Bobcats?  (Read 11437 times)

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If KG/PP Retire, Would You Swap Rosters with the Bobcats?
« on: May 07, 2013, 09:47:27 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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I've suggested this hypothetical in comments in "blow it up" threads, but I feel like polling it now.  Some people would like the team to be rid of Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce so that the team can tank and "earn" a high draft pick in 2014.  The Charlotte Bobcats are a bad team with a roster mostly devoid of talent.  Just by being themselves, they have a good shot at having one of the worst records in the league next season.

If Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce retired and you couldn't use their contracts in some sort of trade to bring in other players or draft picks, would you be willing to swap rosters with the Bobcats to maximize the Celtics' shot at a high pick in the 2014 draft?  Assume that you are only trading players under contract for next season and not 2013 draft picks.

I would argue that if you believe this team needs to get really bad before it can get really good again (something that I don't believe), then you should say yes. 
"The worst thing that ever happened in sports was sports radio, and the internet is sports radio on steroids with lower IQs.” -- Brian Burke, former Toronto Maple Leafs senior adviser, at the 2013 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference

Re: If KG/PP Retire, Would You Swap Rosters with the Bobcats?
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2013, 09:50:33 PM »

Offline StartOrien

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Good. God. No.

Re: If KG/PP Retire, Would You Swap Rosters with the Bobcats?
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2013, 09:52:26 PM »

Offline StartOrien

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One team has successfully built a franchise mostly through the draft. A thousand have failed. This idea that you have to be 'bad' to rebuild isn't accurate. You have to be smart with your money, and get a few good bounces.

Re: If KG/PP Retire, Would You Swap Rosters with the Bobcats?
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2013, 09:58:39 PM »

Offline Who

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It's not a bad option.

I am not sure I am ready to give up on Rondo though so I don't think it would be my first preference but I wouldn't be completely against it either. It's a good place to rebuild from. Top 5 picks are so valuable to the rebuilding process. Gives you a great footing to build from.

I wish Rondo was a few years younger. I wouldn't consider this at all if he were 24/25 years old but 27/28 years old coming off ACL surgery and with a rebuilding process on the horizon. Nerve wracking.

Re: If KG/PP Retire, Would You Swap Rosters with the Bobcats?
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2013, 11:19:56 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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In the spirit of this thread... I'd argue that the Charlotte Bobcats are closer to winning a championship than this team.

It's the short-view vs long-view.

At first, that sounds crazy-town.

Look at it this way... The New Orleans Hornets initially were set to trade Chris Paul for a package that would net them  Lamar Odom, Kevin Martin, Luis Scola and Goran Dragic. 

The NBA (acting owner of the Hornets) smartly declined the trade.  WHy?  ... well it was simple really.  It wasn't petty.  It wasn't corruption.  It was "baskeball reasons" and those "basketball reasons" made a heck of a lot of sense.  Short-sighted fans looked at that trade and said, "That's not a bad deal!  That's a lot of talent... they could make the playoffs with that talent!"  ... And sure, maybe they would.  But they were eliminating a Top-5 player in Chris Paul and replacing him with a bunch of mediocre fringe-stars.  None of those guys were all-stars.  At most they would have won 35-45 games.  Meanwhile, they would have saddled themselves with 100 million dollars worth of bad salary if they made that deal... they would have ruined any shot of drafting a franchise player... and they would have stuck themself into a rut of perpetual mediocrity.

At the time, I thought the veto made TOTAL sense.  In retrospect, it made even more sense.  Odom was a travesty in Dallas.  Scola was so mediocre, his team didn't mind amnestying him.  K-Mart is currently coming off the bench.  I like Dragic, but Dragic isn't an impact player.

The alternative?  Young Eric Gordon, the pick that became #10 (Austin Rivers) and most importantly... addition-by-subtraction... putting yourself in position to tank and land a top 5 pick (the superstar scratch ticket).   Now, Gordon and Rivers so far look underwhelming... but that superstar scratch ticket nabbed them the second coming of Kevin Garnett (Anthony Davis).  I'd gladly take that Hornets roster over ours... Davis is the future.  You absolutely can build a contender around Anthony Davis if he develops the way we expect him to.

"Running it back" is akin to accepting that Scola/Odom/Martin/Dragic trade.  You'll put yourself in a fine position to win 45 games.   If KG/PP retire and we decide to march out a team built around Rondo, Green, Bradley, Bass and Sully... you're looking at a 25-38 win team.  Best case:  1st round exist.  Worst case:  Mid-Lotto.

As much as I love Rondo, there isn't a single player on this team you can build a contender around.  There is no Anthony Davis on this squad.  We're severely lacking in quality assets... Bradley alone probably wouldn't net a lotto pick.  Sully was a late 1st rounder for a reason.  Beyond that, there's nothing on this team in terms of value.  The contracts of Bass, Terry and Lee are borderline terrible.  Green is alright, but will never be an all-star.   If KG and Pierce retire, you're looking at a perpetually mediocre team.  Too good to suck.  Too bad to contend.

Compare that to the Bobcats position.  They have 9 players 26 years old and younger. 

Kemba Walker - Solid young player (22 years old) ... was the 9th pick in 2011.  2nd year player currently averaging 18 points and 6 assists and 2 steals on a bad team.  Good asset.

Gerald Henderson - Good young SG (25 years old) with proper size (6'5 215)... was the 12th pick in 2009.  Averaged 15.5 points and 4 rebounds. Solid asset.

Bismack Biyomobo - Good young big. (20 years old).  Was the 7th pick in 2011.  Averaged 7 boards and 2 blocks.  Solid asset.

Michael Kidd-Gilcrest - Only 19 years old.  Was the 2nd pick this year.  Was one of the top rookies in the league in terms of efficiency.  He's one of the best young prospects in the league.  Elite asset.

Byron Mullins and Jeff Taylor also have some value...

Additionally, they have the 2nd best odds in this upcoming draft... which means they could luck into Nerlens Noel.

Let me pause for a second.  I'd argue that MKG has more trade value than Rondo.  I'd also argue that their pick (projected #2 in this draft) also has more trade value than Rondo. 

Let's take it a step further... that team has all their key players locked into rookie deals.  They have boatloads of cap space.

And most importantly, they'll stink again next year... meaning they'll be one of the frontrunners to land a top 5 pick in the HUGE 2014 draft (with Andrew Wiggins the star player).   

With the Bobcats, you're looking at a team who (if properly managed) could be a contender within the next 4 years.  THey are LOADED with young assets and cap space.  Danny Ainge would be salivating to have that kind of flexibility.  That's the kind of assets you either build a contender around (the OKC route) or you flip for established vets (the 2007 Celtics route).   

Boston, on the other hand, is in a very poor position to contend in the short and long term.   For all of these reasons, I'd argue that the Charlotte Bobcats are far closer to contending than the Boston Celtics are.  Yes, Boston might make the playoffs for a the next couple years (and get walloped by the contenders) while in the short term the Bobcats will remain a lotto team... but if I had to put money on one of these teams winning a title in 2018... I'd put money on the Bobcats.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2013, 11:25:14 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: If KG/PP Retire, Would You Swap Rosters with the Bobcats?
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2013, 11:36:57 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Firstly, I like the way you bury the caveats all through your post. It's a nice rhetorical strategy.

It happens first when you call Davis the second coming of KG, and then spend another ten or so words before you acknowledge the point that he has to develop the way you think he will in order for that statement to make sense.

That extends out to your vision of the Bobcats and their tank adventure--namely, I would say that you don't give the "if properly managed" portion of that plan enough credit. Hiding it in a parenthetical statement doesn't change the fact that anyone can blow a team up. It remains to be seen if Rich Cho can build a better one.

That said, I think that Charlotte made the right decision in blowing it up. While that Gerald Wallace/Capt. Jack team was a lot of fun to watch, they'd pretty clearly hit their ceiling.

Now, you could say that our team, as presently constructed, hit our ceiling last year when we snuck into the ECF by the skin of our teeth. I'd probably agree with that.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: If KG/PP Retire, Would You Swap Rosters with the Bobcats?
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2013, 12:13:57 AM »

Offline AB_Celtic

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I'd argue that MKG has more trade value than Rondo.

Just false.

Re: If KG/PP Retire, Would You Swap Rosters with the Bobcats?
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2013, 12:33:17 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I'd argue that MKG has more trade value than Rondo.

Just false.
He's 19 and on his rookie contract.  Rondo plays the deepest position in the league, is 28 years old, a top-10 PG and coming off of major surgery.   MKG has more trade value. You couldn't get a top 5 pick for rondo at this point

Re: If KG/PP Retire, Would You Swap Rosters with the Bobcats?
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2013, 12:33:34 AM »

Offline LooseCannon

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I'd argue that MKG has more trade value than Rondo.

Just false.

It's probably true, but has much more to do with contract size than talent.
"The worst thing that ever happened in sports was sports radio, and the internet is sports radio on steroids with lower IQs.” -- Brian Burke, former Toronto Maple Leafs senior adviser, at the 2013 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference

Re: If KG/PP Retire, Would You Swap Rosters with the Bobcats?
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2013, 12:35:54 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Firstly, I like the way you bury the caveats all through your post. It's a nice rhetorical strategy.

It happens first when you call Davis the second coming of KG, and then spend another ten or so words before you acknowledge the point that he has to develop the way you think he will in order for that statement to make sense.

That extends out to your vision of the Bobcats and their tank adventure--namely, I would say that you don't give the "if properly managed" portion of that plan enough credit. Hiding it in a parenthetical statement doesn't change the fact that anyone can blow a team up. It remains to be seen if Rich Cho can build a better one.

That said, I think that Charlotte made the right decision in blowing it up. While that Gerald Wallace/Capt. Jack team was a lot of fun to watch, they'd pretty clearly hit their ceiling.

Now, you could say that our team, as presently constructed, hit our ceiling last year when we snuck into the ECF by the skin of our teeth. I'd probably agree with that.

Davis compares favorably to KG at the same age...  He also compares favorably to kg in year 2.  His per-minute numbers are fantastic. He's a franchise player unless something goes horribly wrong   The pelicans are in amazing shape right now ... Few teams have a brighter future

Re: If KG/PP Retire, Would You Swap Rosters with the Bobcats?
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2013, 12:39:39 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Firstly, I like the way you bury the caveats all through your post. It's a nice rhetorical strategy.

It happens first when you call Davis the second coming of KG, and then spend another ten or so words before you acknowledge the point that he has to develop the way you think he will in order for that statement to make sense.

That extends out to your vision of the Bobcats and their tank adventure--namely, I would say that you don't give the "if properly managed" portion of that plan enough credit. Hiding it in a parenthetical statement doesn't change the fact that anyone can blow a team up. It remains to be seen if Rich Cho can build a better one.

That said, I think that Charlotte made the right decision in blowing it up. While that Gerald Wallace/Capt. Jack team was a lot of fun to watch, they'd pretty clearly hit their ceiling.

Now, you could say that our team, as presently constructed, hit our ceiling last year when we snuck into the ECF by the skin of our teeth. I'd probably agree with that.

Davis compares favorably to KG at the same age...  He also compares favorably to kg in year 2.  His per-minute numbers are fantastic. He's a franchise player unless something goes horribly wrong

Sure, he's potentially a franchise talent, but it takes a smart front office to maximize the team around him. The crux of my point doesn't really involve Davis at all, rather I'm curious to see how much you think front office competency plays into the development of a blown up team.

Also worth talking about, I think, is that teams have been much less liberal with trading draft picks since the new CBA was signed. A team like Brooklyn (trading picks for talent) is looking like the exception, not the rule.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: If KG/PP Retire, Would You Swap Rosters with the Bobcats?
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2013, 12:50:44 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

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No

Re: If KG/PP Retire, Would You Swap Rosters with the Bobcats?
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2013, 12:51:28 AM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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Also worth talking about, I think, is that teams have been much less liberal with trading draft picks since the new CBA was signed. A team like Brooklyn (trading picks for talent) is looking like the exception, not the rule.

I like to think of that change in strategy as being less about the CBA and more about what Isaiah Thomas taught other GMs about how to most quickly run an NBA franchise into the ground.

Re: If KG/PP Retire, Would You Swap Rosters with the Bobcats?
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2013, 12:52:12 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Firstly, I like the way you bury the caveats all through your post. It's a nice rhetorical strategy.

It happens first when you call Davis the second coming of KG, and then spend another ten or so words before you acknowledge the point that he has to develop the way you think he will in order for that statement to make sense.

That extends out to your vision of the Bobcats and their tank adventure--namely, I would say that you don't give the "if properly managed" portion of that plan enough credit. Hiding it in a parenthetical statement doesn't change the fact that anyone can blow a team up. It remains to be seen if Rich Cho can build a better one.

That said, I think that Charlotte made the right decision in blowing it up. While that Gerald Wallace/Capt. Jack team was a lot of fun to watch, they'd pretty clearly hit their ceiling.

Now, you could say that our team, as presently constructed, hit our ceiling last year when we snuck into the ECF by the skin of our teeth. I'd probably agree with that.

Davis compares favorably to KG at the same age...  He also compares favorably to kg in year 2.  His per-minute numbers are fantastic. He's a franchise player unless something goes horribly wrong

Sure, he's potentially a franchise talent, but it takes a smart front office to maximize the team around him. The crux of my point doesn't really involve Davis at all, rather I'm curious to see how much you think front office competency plays into the development of a blown up team.

Also worth talking about, I think, is that teams have been much less liberal with trading draft picks since the new CBA was signed. A team like Brooklyn (trading picks for talent) is looking like the exception, not the rule.

If we were to look at the bobcats.. There's a fair chance they continue to stink.   That team is a dream for a GM that knows what he is doing.  Plenty of young assets on rookie deals... A top 5 pick in 2013, cap space... I'd personally tank for one more year in an effort to land wiggins and let the value increase for the youngins... And then either go the Okc route or use the cap space/assets to trade for established stars.   

For example... Boston would probably take MKG or the top 5 pick for rondo right now... The bobcats could swallow the extra salary and Boston would get a young prospect to build around.... But the bobcats don't need to do that.  A trade like that is the worst-case scenario for a properly managed bobcats team...  Trading your prospects for a 28 year old flawed fringe Allstar. 

They will probably mess it up but I promise you that team is a dream for a smart GM.  You could turn it into a contender within 4 years.. And that is significantly harder to do with the celtics current roster... Lack of assets, a best player with lack of value, overpaid vets and a lack of cap space in the foreseeable future.  When teams "blow it up", the goal is to get in the position the bobcats are in right now.  They are years ahead of us in thar regard.

I bet you Danny ainge would rather have the bobcats assets than the crap he has to work with right now.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2013, 01:03:41 AM by LarBrd33 »

Re: If KG/PP Retire, Would You Swap Rosters with the Bobcats?
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2013, 01:03:59 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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That's the thing, though--it's a two way street. Look at how long Houston was in the "collect assets and wait" mode. How many superstars did they swing and miss with before they landed Harden?

I actually find Houston a much more reasonable model than the Sonics/Thunder, since they weren't really an awful team at any stretch of their post-Yao rebuild, and as a fan, I want my team to at least be entertaining if they can't be good. I've watched more Warriors games than I care to admit, from the We Believe era to the present, and watching them tank aggressively at the end of last year was awful.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.