If KG/PP Retire, Would You Swap Rosters with the Bobcats?

[LooseCannon]

It seems to paint a picture of a league that values scoring over passing.

There's a legitimate argument to be made that teams tend to overvalue scoring relative to other skills.  Rondo is a player I expect to be under-valued, so I believe that trading him is usually going to be a bad proposition.  Thus, my fantasy GMing of the Celtics involves assuming that Rondo remains a Celtic and crafting the roster to fit his strengths and weaknesses.  I don't think you built around a single player, you try to build around a core of multiple players, including at least two stars, and finding role players who fit the synergies between your top players.

With Rondo, I am looking for the ability to sometimes field a lineup with three capable three-point shooters who can be on the floor at the same time as Rondo.  Contrary to a lot of people on this forum, I am not looking for athletic bigs who can run the floor and dunk as their primary offensive attribute.  I'm looking for bigs who are useful away from the basket.

[BballTim]

I disagree Tim.  Pierce and the Boston offense was fine post-Rondo... Pierce averaged 19, 6 and 6 after the all-star break.   Check out Paul's shooting percentages: 

Pre all-star 42%/36%/79% 
Post all-star 49%/43%/78%

Jeff Green's scoring and efficiency increased dramatically after rondo went out. 

Pre all-star 44%/34%/81% 10 points
Post all-star 49%/44%/80% 17 points


Brandon Bass... pre all-star 45% shooting... post all-star 54% shooting

Their effectiveness scoring wasn't hinging on Rondo's ability to pass them the ball.   

  ...and look at what happened to them in the playoffs, where teams have to be able to execute their half court offenses against teams that are more focused on their defense than they are during the season. Go back over the last 3+ months of celticsblog, you'll find tons of posts from many different posters that contained phrases like "wait until the playoffs come".

  What happened in the playoffs to the Celts offense was extremely predictable. If you don't believe me check with any number of posters who were saying the same thing, or go back and find the quotes from Doc, Danny and even Wyc saying the same thing.

I hear ya.  I thought we'd perform a lot better in the playoffs... but I really don't think having Rondo would have made Pierce shoot higher than 36% (23% from three).  He was just off.  And we've yet to see any evidence that Jeff Green can be effective with Rondo dominating the ball every possession.  I think the Knicks series would have looked a lot different... but I don't think the outcome would have been much different.

It's a wonderful scapegoat though.  Denial is a powerful thing.  Lot easier pretending this team is still a contender than facing the fact that the Charlotte Bobcats are closer to winning a title than this sitting duck franchise.

  Denial is your desperately clinging to the remnants of your theories on Rondo's play that were pretty much trashed during the playoffs. Here are a couple of factors that could each have a significant effect on Pierce's shooting percentages. First, the responsibility of having to run the offense with Rondo out including bringing the ball up court much of the time just wore him down when he was playing big minutes. Second, the looks he got weren't that great, in part because Rondo wasn't running the offense, in part because Paul had the ball in his hands so much so the defense was focused on him before he got ready to shoot.

  Let me know if you don't think that those are things that can effect a player's shooting or if you don't think having Rondo would have changed things.

  And you can claim that we don't have evidence that Green can be effective playing with Rondo, but by the same token you have no evidence that he can't. He started the season poorly but his play improved as the season went on and that improvement started before Rondo's injury. Check out his splits and you'll see what I mean.

Sorry dude I just don't see it.  Pierce shot just as poorly in the playoffs last year (38%/31%/89%)... Ray shot 39%/30%/71% ... and this was despite the fact they were playing with Rondo.   

  Seriously? Paul Pierce struggled with a sprained mcl during the 2012 playoffs and Ray was hobbling around on the same bad ankle that caused him to miss time at the end of the season. I provided links to articles about the injuries since this is clearly news to you.

http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/7915973/2012-nba-playoffs-doc-rivers-says-boston-celtics-paul-pierce-attempt-play-mcl-sprain

http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/7806760/boston-celtics-ray-allen-ankle-travel-road-trip

  If you look at the wing players in the 2012 playoffs we had PP with the sprained knee ligament, Ray hobbling around on a gimpy ankle, Avery with his shoulders popping out every other game or so and Pietrus, who was still slowed from the concussion/whiplash injury. Also look at the defenses we faced, all of whom were among the best in the league. And how did the offense look? Much better than it looked in this year's playoffs.

I absolutely love ROndo, but I contend that he is one of the most overrated players in the league.  He's limited offensively.  He would have struggled penetrating vs New York and his lack of shooting ability would have made him a liability without the ball. 

  That's fairly ridiculous. When's the last time Rondo struggled to penetrate against a team in the playoffs? 2008 or so? Rondo takes about the same number of shots at the rim a game in the postseason as LeBron, and he does so every year. The claim that he'd struggle to penetrate against a below average defensive team is laughable.

  One would think that you'd know things like that about a player that you "absolutely love". It's like claiming that KG's always been one of your all-time favorite players right before you mention that you think he's never been a good rebounder and he doesn't add much to a team's defense.