Would you rather have Rondo or Sullinger back right now?

[Tr1boy]

you just summed up some important points without focusing on them. Some of us are focusing on the aspect that its Rondo, a triple double machine and his past playoff performances speak volumes. It is out of question to state it was mainly his fault were stunk earlier this year. There HAS to be other factors

Than you have people like myself that have seen a Rondo transition from a blue collar, non "all star" , that actually helps/enhances "team play" to the earlier this season Rondo, who walks up the ball, doesn't pass the ball to everyone even if they are free, takes risks to steal balls more frequently, stuffs stats YET we are only a 500 team.

Yes if rondo works harder which means 2008-2010 rondo plus utilizes some new skills (jump shot improvement), he would be a top three pg (maybe one can argue #1). It doesn't matter if he can turn it up in the playoffs for someone like myself BC you have to get into the playoffs in the first place. 23-20 = half the season gone. Team is out of whack, where is the indication all of a sudden things will change?? Even though we have had excellent 2nd halfs before to propel us up in the standinds, at least in the beginning of the year, eveyrone was still working hard (and as a cohesive unit), even Rondo.

Again, people earlier this year were enormed by Rondo bc of his assist totals, we got a new leader to take over pp, kg, last years playoff performances still fresh on their minds, yet we are playing 500 ball. Its like a guy scoring 30 a night , but their team out of sync , not performing as a group and playing mediocre ball. If we had scrubs, than yeah, the 30 pt a night guy can't be  really the blame. But our team this year was loaded with talent, Rondo got his stats yet we still lost. When he was out due to injuries, we won.  So either Rondo or the new Rondo and this new group is not compatible or Rondo's ways is the problem.  Its not realistic to say its everyone else fault.

So what you are saying is that it was solely Rondo's fault that we were playing so poorly until he was injured?

That despite similar streaks of poor play for the last few years, where Rondo played as you referred to it as "2008-2010" Rondo, that we would not have righted the ship had Rondo not gotten injured and continued on to finish the season not in the playoffs? That this team that is currently in line to make the playoffs without Rondo is better than the same exact team would be with Rondo? And it doesn't matter if Rondo can turn it up in the playoffs? Playoffs are all that matters.

And to suggest that this Celtics team would have missed the playoffs with Rondo but were, as recently as a week ago, within reach of a top 4 seed and possibly the Atlantic without him is laughable.

I'm not trying to be a Rondo apologist. I'm just saying that Rondo certainly wasn't the sole reason we struggled for the first half. I'm not saying he wasn't partially to blame. I saw how he was dominating the ball too much overall to let the offense flow and let people get into rhythm. But to put the entire blame on one player when it was clearly a team failure is unfair.

What you are saying is that either it was Rondo or everyone else, what I'm trying to say was that it was a combination of things. That Rondo played a factor as did everyone else on the team. I don't think its as simple as Rondo is gone, we've now hit our stride so obviously we are suddenly a better team thus Rondo was the problem. Its too simple. Its using him as a scapegoat.

If we lost still after the rondo's injury, and really badly also, than yes, the blame can't be solely/mainly on him. Than it comesdown to Doc or a few other players etc. Maybe you just got the wrong combination of players.

But like myself and others pointed out, the equation is really easy to see. Usually in science there are more than one variable, side effects etc. It takes a long time to iron things out.

In this situation, with Rondo we are playing 500. Without him starting in miami we go onto being one of the most dangerous teams in the league. We beat top teams suddenly. Nothing else changed except one player is longer playing and now the team playing cohesively.  And yes unlike say if Lee was out of the lineup, Rondo can be blamed a little more readily bc he is holding onto the ball 70 percent of the time.  And like i've said, you mess up the dynamics offensively, you can also damage the dynamics defensively and vice versa. Rondo holding onto the ball so long already  screwed things up on top of walking up with the ball. Rondo taking risks defensively, like a domino effect at times, collapsed the defense. One player for the good or the bad can have this kind of effect

[BballTim]

So basically, the C's need to go out in free agency and see if they can find a point guard who can effectively run the team and play hard in the regular season. Rondo can sit on the bench for the regular season until the playoffs come around, then he becomes the starter because the playoffs are the only time he shows up to play anyway. Does anyone see anything wrong with this picture? Every other "star" player in the NBA plays hard regular season AND playoffs, but somehow we have Rondo who absolutely coasts in the regular season. This is unacceptable behavior from a "star" player. Give me Sullinger. At least he plays hard every night.

  Sure, as long as the point guard who "coasts" is still able to be top 5 in assists (leading the league 2 years running), top 5 in rebounds/game for point guards (again leading the league 2 straight years) and be 1st or 2nd team all-defense 4 years running. Point guards that can do that while coasting aren't as plentiful as you seem to think. Who do you think fits the bill?

if that point guard plays and his team goes 20-23, i don't necessarily need him (or want him)

don't worry , this answer won't be accepted by many and the rebuttal will be , how can you diss a guy who once scored 40 plus in a playoff game. Its like Al Bundy reminiscing that he once scored 4 touchdowns in one game

This just doesn't make sense to me. If your argument is that you don't want/like Rondo because he coasts throughout the regular season and yet he is still easily a top 10 PG if not top 5, then wouldn't you want him even more? If he can screw his head on straight and play hard throughout the season would he then be the #1 PG since he isn't putting in full effort now?

Or is your argument is that because this team struggled and went 20-23 at the start of the season and the blame should be put on his shoulders alone despite other players being injured/not hitting their stride yet? Because in that case we should be clearing out a lot of other lockers first since Rondo was averaging a double double during that period. He was most certainly not the sole reason for the struggles and in fact probably prevented our record from being even worse than that.

I think the only valid argument that I've heard expressed as to why to get rid of Rondo (and maybe this is what you were trying to say and I misunderstood) is that Rondo doesn't fit with this current Celtics roster. And since he is our only truly valuable trade asset he should be moved to bring in pieces that would better fit this team's style and help us build for the future. And even that I disagree with, but its a matter of opinion over how this team best operates and what is best for the future, but definitely not a matter of discussing whether Rondo is a star or not (that point is proven by the eye test and the stats that back it up).

I don't think most people here who are favoring Rondo are doing so based purely on his past performance Al Bundy style, but are more focused on his talent that was still on display even during the 20-23 rough start and over the last few seasons.

Rondo has tremendous ability and if you think he is somehow not putting in enough effort that just means he could be even better. BballTim has posted the stats to back up the point in leading the league in assists and rebounds for PGs plus being towards the top for his position defensively.

Yes people harp on about his playoff performances, but thats where you earn your money and your reputation and Rondo has put together some spectacular performances. His ability to turn it up a notch in crunch time and in big games shouldn't be held against him, its an ASSET. Maybe its a signal he could put more effort in during the regular season but its is DEFINITELY a signal that come playoff team he can carry a team, a trait only a handful of guys have in the association. 

Rondo is an NBA star, whether you want him on the Celtics or not is another question, but you can't deny his talent.

you just summed up some important points without focusing on them. Some of us are focusing on the aspect that its Rondo, a triple double machine and his past playoff performances speak volumes. It is out of question to state it was mainly his fault were stunk earlier this year. There HAS to be other factors

Than you have people like myself that have seen a Rondo transition from a blue collar, non "all star" , that actually helps/enhances "team play" to the earlier this season Rondo, who walks up the ball, doesn't pass the ball to everyone even if they are free, takes risks to steal balls more frequently, stuffs stats YET we are only a 500 team.

Yes if rondo works harder which means 2008-2010 rondo plus utilizes some new skills (jump shot improvement), he would be a top three pg (maybe one can argue #1). It doesn't matter if he can turn it up in the playoffs for someone like myself BC you have to get into the playoffs in the first place. 23-20 = half the season gone. Team is out of whack, where is the indication all of a sudden things will change?? Even though we have had excellent 2nd halfs before to propel us up in the standinds, at least in the beginning of the year, eveyrone was still working hard (and as a cohesive unit), even Rondo.

Again, people earlier this year were enormed by Rondo bc of his assist totals, we got a new leader to take over pp, kg, last years playoff performances still fresh on their minds, yet we are playing 500 ball. Its like a guy scoring 30 a night , but their team out of sync , not performing as a group and playing mediocre ball. If we had scrubs, than yeah, the 30 pt a night guy can't be  really the blame. But our team this year was loaded with talent, Rondo got his stats yet we still lost. When he was out due to injuries, we won.  So either Rondo or the new Rondo and this new group is not compatible or Rondo's ways is the problem.  Its not realistic to say its everyone else fault.

  If you focus solely on Rondo's presence or absence and don't consider anything else that was happening with the team it's easy to come to the conclusion that Rondo was the problem. But other things were going on as well:

  Green, rusty from a year off and still recovering from his injury was playing poorly the first few months of the season. His numbers started to improve in January, while Rondo was still playing.

  PP and Terry were playing poorly in Dec/Jan due to injury. In November they combined for 31 ppg on 61% TS%, in Jan they combined for 23 ppg on 50% TS%.

  The bigs aside from KG were playing terrible defense earlier this year. A month or so into the season the team's defense was over *18 ppp* worse when KG was out of the game.

  I could go on, but you get the point. Since you're claiming that our record was mainly Rondo's fault (in spite of the fact that he wasn't playing poorly) I'm curious about your position on the issues that I listed. Are you claiming that they didn't happen, that they didn't have any affect on how well the team played, or that they were Rondo's fault?

[WMark]

The bigs outside of KG and Randolph are still playing poorly.  Has Wilcox ever clogged the middle or taken a charge?  I am starting to understand why Wilcox played on so many poor teams b4 joining the Cs.

[WMark]

Or Bass for that matter.  At least Bass gives some effort on one to one defense; Wilcox couldn't care less about it.

[wdleehi]

I want the all-star level player that makes the rest of the team better and is a big game player.

[Tr1boy]

Ok i think i will stop, bc i feel like a cd skipping trying to make my point. Its ok by me if its not accepted, this is a forum after all.

I pick sully now but this is based on this years play and how he gets along better with everyone else on the floor. Plus we need inside presence.

Outside of this year, i'd pick Rondo for sure. And as a first choice, i do want Rondo back next year, playing like his old self.

[WMark]

I think Rondo is indispensable as long as he meets the team at least halfway and stops the grandstanding. 

[BballTim]

I'm not trying to be a Rondo apologist. I'm just saying that Rondo certainly wasn't the sole reason we struggled for the first half. I'm not saying he wasn't partially to blame. I saw how he was dominating the ball too much overall to let the offense flow and let people get into rhythm. But to put the entire blame on one player when it was clearly a team failure is unfair.

  If you want to look at the times over the last few years when Rondo's really dominated the ball start with 10-11 before his injuries kicked in, back in Nov/Dec when he set the record for assists to start a season and was averaging 13+ assists a game. We were playing our best offense of the season at the time.

  Or you could look at the tail end of 11-12 during his assist streak, when he was averaging 13+ assists again. We were playing our best offense of the season at the time. Or maybe we should check out the playoffs last year when he was scoring or assisting more points than anyone in the league aside from LeBron and we almost made it to the finals. Or we could look at the beginning of the year when he was finishing up his assist streak and we were a top 10 offense and 3rd or 4th in the league in TS%.

  I don't think it's necessarily true that Rondo dominating the ball prevents the team from getting into an offensive flow or from players getting into a god rhythm.

[BballTim]

Ok i think i will stop, bc i feel like a cd skipping trying to make my point. Its ok by me if its not accepted, this is a forum after all.

I pick sully now but this is based on this years play and how he gets along better with everyone else on the floor. Plus we need inside presence.

Outside of this year, i'd pick Rondo for sure. And as a first choice, i do want Rondo back next year, playing like his old self.

  If you've addressed the questions I posed to you multiple times I'd appreciate it if you pointed me to the post. If not I'd still be interested in your thoughts on those questions.

[connor]

Ok i think i will stop, bc i feel like a cd skipping trying to make my point. Its ok by me if its not accepted, this is a forum after all.

I pick sully now but this is based on this years play and how he gets along better with everyone else on the floor. Plus we need inside presence.

Outside of this year, i'd pick Rondo for sure. And as a first choice, i do want Rondo back next year, playing like his old self.

I don't mean to beat a dead horse and apologies if it seems like I'm not getting your points, I think I do we just happen to disagree entirely which is fine, but if Sully and Rondo went down at basically the same time and we have started to play better since, surely thats evidence that the entire team picked up their game as a result of the injuries and its not just addition by subtraction, right?

What I mean to say is that I thought Sully played excellently all year long. Of course there is room for improvement, but he was outstanding and by no means the reason for our struggles, but rather one of the few bright spots.

If Rondo really was the problem, then fine its plausible that the Celtics fared better once he went down. But Sully was purely a positive. So when he went down obviously the entire team had to step up in great measures to make up for his loss. Doesn't that show that the Celtics weren't playing up to their potential even if Rondo was the problem?

This isn't one of those Sully went down at the same time so obviously he was the problem sarcastic arguments. 

I just think it goes to show how far the Celtics were playing below their ability that without Rondo AND Sully they went on to get hot and win a lot of games. If it was just Rondo going down then fine maybe there is some evidence that he was the major problem, but to be able to overcome the loss of Sully as well clearly several guys' quality of play improved. And I don't think it all has to do with changing our style without Rondo, but more that they started to hit their stride and find their groove (plus Avery coming back). 

So if the team as a whole improved that much from the start of the season to overcome such issues, how can it be entirely Rondo's fault that they struggled? If just a few of the guys who have started to play better (Green, Terry, Lee) had put forth that kind of play at the start of the season, wouldn't we have had a better record and not even be talking about this?

[BballTim]

Ok i think i will stop, bc i feel like a cd skipping trying to make my point. Its ok by me if its not accepted, this is a forum after all.

I pick sully now but this is based on this years play and how he gets along better with everyone else on the floor. Plus we need inside presence.

Outside of this year, i'd pick Rondo for sure. And as a first choice, i do want Rondo back next year, playing like his old self.

I don't mean to beat a dead horse and apologies if it seems like I'm not getting your points, I think I do we just happen to disagree entirely which is fine, but if Sully and Rondo went down at basically the same time and we have started to play better since, surely thats evidence that the entire team picked up their game as a result of the injuries and its not just addition by subtraction, right?

What I mean to say is that I thought Sully played excellently all year long. Of course there is room for improvement, but he was outstanding and by no means the reason for our struggles, but rather one of the few bright spots.

If Rondo really was the problem, then fine its plausible that the Celtics fared better once he went down. But Sully was purely a positive. So when he went down obviously the entire team had to step up in great measures to make up for his loss. Doesn't that show that the Celtics weren't playing up to their potential even if Rondo was the problem?

This isn't one of those Sully went down at the same time so obviously he was the problem sarcastic arguments. 

I just think it goes to show how far the Celtics were playing below their ability that without Rondo AND Sully they went on to get hot and win a lot of games. If it was just Rondo going down then fine maybe there is some evidence that he was the major problem, but to be able to overcome the loss of Sully as well clearly several guys' quality of play improved. And I don't think it all has to do with changing our style without Rondo, but more that they started to hit their stride and find their groove (plus Avery coming back). 

So if the team as a whole improved that much from the start of the season to overcome such issues, how can it be entirely Rondo's fault that they struggled? If just a few of the guys who have started to play better (Green, Terry, Lee) had put forth that kind of play at the start of the season, wouldn't we have had a better record and not even be talking about this?

  I'd say that there is one way that Rondo and Sully being injured helped the team, and that's freeing up minutes. Normally Rondo plays 36+ minutes a game at guard and PP plays about 36 a game at forward. That left Bradley/Lee/Terry/Barbosa to fight over the remaining 60 guard minutes (12 at pg and 48 at sg) and Sully/Green/Bass to fight over the remaining forward minutes (with a few minutes at center thrown in). That meant, aside from the fact that most of those guys were new to the team, they all had inconsistent minutes and rarely enough playing time to get into a good rhythm.

[connor]

I'm not trying to be a Rondo apologist. I'm just saying that Rondo certainly wasn't the sole reason we struggled for the first half. I'm not saying he wasn't partially to blame. I saw how he was dominating the ball too much overall to let the offense flow and let people get into rhythm. But to put the entire blame on one player when it was clearly a team failure is unfair.

  If you want to look at the times over the last few years when Rondo's really dominated the ball start with 10-11 before his injuries kicked in, back in Nov/Dec when he set the record for assists to start a season and was averaging 13+ assists a game. We were playing our best offense of the season at the time.

  Or you could look at the tail end of 11-12 during his assist streak, when he was averaging 13+ assists again. We were playing our best offense of the season at the time. Or maybe we should check out the playoffs last year when he was scoring or assisting more points than anyone in the league aside from LeBron and we almost made it to the finals. Or we could look at the beginning of the year when he was finishing up his assist streak and we were a top 10 offense and 3rd or 4th in the league in TS%.

  I don't think it's necessarily true that Rondo dominating the ball prevents the team from getting into an offensive flow or from players getting into a god rhythm.

I wasn't trying to say that Rondo dominating the ball normally prevents the flow or rhythm, but given the struggles of a number of guys at the start of the season it looked like Rondo tightened up a bit and tried to do too much (I assume in an effort to put the struggling guys in better positions to get their shots and heat up).

It seemed as if he was looking for the perfect play every time and when it wasn't there he preferred to leave it with KG or PP to create their own shot at the end of the clock.

I think he would have been better suited getting the ball out of his hands earlier and letting guys like Terry, Lee and Green get the ball earlier and look for their own shots to get comfortable (all three wouldn't have been as used to playing with such an effective assist man who probably holds the ball a little longer than your average nba PG).

Normally I don't have a problem at all with the way Rondo plays, but I think he started to try to do too much on his own because the team was struggling when he was probably better off letting those guys work through their problems early and get into rhythm (which seems to be what helped some of them break out of their funk once he went down, but hindsight is 20/20).

[Tr1boy]

Ok i think i will stop, bc i feel like a cd skipping trying to make my point. Its ok by me if its not accepted, this is a forum after all.

I pick sully now but this is based on this years play and how he gets along better with everyone else on the floor. Plus we need inside presence.

Outside of this year, i'd pick Rondo for sure. And as a first choice, i do want Rondo back next year, playing like his old self.

I don't mean to beat a dead horse and apologies if it seems like I'm not getting your points, I think I do we just happen to disagree entirely which is fine, but if Sully and Rondo went down at basically the same time and we have started to play better since, surely thats evidence that the entire team picked up their game as a result of the injuries and its not just addition by subtraction, right?

What I mean to say is that I thought Sully played excellently all year long. Of course there is room for improvement, but he was outstanding and by no means the reason for our struggles, but rather one of the few bright spots.

If Rondo really was the problem, then fine its plausible that the Celtics fared better once he went down. But Sully was purely a positive. So when he went down obviously the entire team had to step up in great measures to make up for his loss. Doesn't that show that the Celtics weren't playing up to their potential even if Rondo was the problem?

This isn't one of those Sully went down at the same time so obviously he was the problem sarcastic arguments. 

I just think it goes to show how far the Celtics were playing below their ability that without Rondo AND Sully they went on to get hot and win a lot of games. If it was just Rondo going down then fine maybe there is some evidence that he was the major problem, but to be able to overcome the loss of Sully as well clearly several guys' quality of play improved. And I don't think it all has to do with changing our style without Rondo, but more that they started to hit their stride and find their groove (plus Avery coming back). 

So if the team as a whole improved that much from the start of the season to overcome such issues, how can it be entirely Rondo's fault that they struggled? If just a few of the guys who have started to play better (Green, Terry, Lee) had put forth that kind of play at the start of the season, wouldn't we have had a better record and not even be talking about this?

The effort was there post Rondo bc of team synergy. Everyone got a touch of the ball and the free shot was made by the open person.  People like Terry, Lee got to utilize their passing skills,push the ball on fast break that was near non existant before Rondo.  If defenses concentrate on denying these players jumpers on the offensive set , they are not nearly the same players if allowed to do other things. 

The games Rondo missed this year, or was not on the floor when sully was on the floor (bc sully came in from the bench), we really got to see the multi talents this kid had. On top of the key, he is a good passer and if he gets the ball in the post once in a while, can score the ball. So he gets to contribute on offense and now has the pump to do well on defense also. I don't know if you ever played basketball, but if you have to do the dirty work, and rarely get to even touch the ball, you don't play with the same excitement. You might just give up trying actually.

So for me, Sully was not part of the problem. He rarely had the ball in his hands (especially when he was on with Rondo), didn't make many mistakes and did the dirty work. Nobody can complain about a guy like that. But when he did have the ball he made an impact. 

So my thinking when this thread came up is, from what i witnessed earlier this year, with Rondo back is, sure he will give you the stats but at what cost again?? Will it decrease the productivity and jump of the majority?

With Sully i just see an addition/enhancement to the team play

[Boris Badenov]

Ok i think i will stop, bc i feel like a cd skipping trying to make my point. Its ok by me if its not accepted, this is a forum after all.

I pick sully now but this is based on this years play and how he gets along better with everyone else on the floor. Plus we need inside presence.

Outside of this year, i'd pick Rondo for sure. And as a first choice, i do want Rondo back next year, playing like his old self.

We were 21-23 with Sullinger and 17-11 without him. Sully's absence made the Celtics better.

We don't need a PF who made our team play less than .500 ball.

Ever since Sullinger went out we have played much better as a team.

Now that Sullinger is out, Green has blossomed into the player we all hoped we could be. Sullinger clearly was holding him back.

Surely you cannot find a flaw in this logic.

[Tr1boy]

Ok i think i will stop, bc i feel like a cd skipping trying to make my point. Its ok by me if its not accepted, this is a forum after all.

I pick sully now but this is based on this years play and how he gets along better with everyone else on the floor. Plus we need inside presence.

Outside of this year, i'd pick Rondo for sure. And as a first choice, i do want Rondo back next year, playing like his old self.

We were 21-23 with Sullinger and 17-11 without him. Sully's absence made the Celtics better.

We don't need a PF who made our team play less than .500 ball.

Ever since Sullinger went out we have played much better as a team.

Now that Sullinger is out, Green has blossomed into the player we all hoped we could be. Sullinger clearly was holding him back.

Surely you cannot find a flaw in this logic.

Why don't you read the post prior to explain the importance of sully. Nice try using stats to backup your argument or mock.