Author Topic: ESPN: Is Garnett an All-Time Great?  (Read 6888 times)

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Re: ESPN: Is Garnett an All-Time Great?
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2013, 01:37:55 PM »

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IMO, the battle for the title of greatest power forward of all-time is between KG and Duncan. KG in his prime was a monster. 22 points, 13 rebounds, 5 assists, a block, and a steal nightly (combined with game changing defense). IMO, it doesn't matter how you play the game as long as your effective and KG was pretty [dang] effective.

The way Kevin McHale is overlooked around here is something else.  He was a great on both ends of the floor and was regularly abusing people before he lost his lift by playing through ridiculous injuries in the playoffs.  He could D up nearly everyone (not so much Kareems sky hook) and score in the post on anybody.
No one could guard Kareem's sky hook.  Wouldn't really hold that against anyone.  I also wonder at people forgetting Karl Malone.  Yeah, he didn't win a championship, but he got [dang] close, and has the rest of the statistics to at least be in the conversation.  I mean, at KG's age he still averaged 26/10/4.

Karl Malone was a great player for a long time, but along with never winning, he was the only one of the all-time great PF's to play alongside a PG of Stockton's stature.


I'd go with Duncan/KG as the two best. McHale 3rd. Barkley/Malone round out the top 5.


KG is, IMHO, one of the three greatest defensive players ever (EVER). His career statistics are already one-of-a-kind (25K points, 15K rebounds, 5K assists, 1.5K steals, 1.5K blocks). His versatility makes him a very unique player.

Pretty much how I see it.

Re: ESPN: Is Garnett an All-Time Great?
« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2013, 01:58:24 PM »

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IMO, the battle for the title of greatest power forward of all-time is between KG and Duncan. KG in his prime was a monster. 22 points, 13 rebounds, 5 assists, a block, and a steal nightly (combined with game changing defense). IMO, it doesn't matter how you play the game as long as your effective and KG was pretty [dang] effective.

The way Kevin McHale is overlooked around here is something else.  He was a great on both ends of the floor and was regularly abusing people before he lost his lift by playing through ridiculous injuries in the playoffs.  He could D up nearly everyone (not so much Kareems sky hook) and score in the post on anybody.
No one could guard Kareem's sky hook.  Wouldn't really hold that against anyone.  I also wonder at people forgetting Karl Malone.  Yeah, he didn't win a championship, but he got [dang] close, and has the rest of the statistics to at least be in the conversation.  I mean, at KG's age he still averaged 26/10/4.

Karl Malone was a great player for a long time, but along with never winning, he was the only one of the all-time great PF's to play alongside a PG of Stockton's stature.


I'd go with Duncan/KG as the two best. McHale 3rd. Barkley/Malone round out the top 5.


KG is, IMHO, one of the three greatest defensive players ever (EVER). His career statistics are already one-of-a-kind (25K points, 15K rebounds, 5K assists, 1.5K steals, 1.5K blocks). His versatility makes him a very unique player.

Top three, who are the other two?

I presume Bill Russell is one. Who is the other one?

Re: ESPN: Is Garnett an All-Time Great?
« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2013, 02:31:51 PM »

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IMO, the battle for the title of greatest power forward of all-time is between KG and Duncan. KG in his prime was a monster. 22 points, 13 rebounds, 5 assists, a block, and a steal nightly (combined with game changing defense). IMO, it doesn't matter how you play the game as long as your effective and KG was pretty [dang] effective.

The way Kevin McHale is overlooked around here is something else.  He was a great on both ends of the floor and was regularly abusing people before he lost his lift by playing through ridiculous injuries in the playoffs.  He could D up nearly everyone (not so much Kareems sky hook) and score in the post on anybody.
No one could guard Kareem's sky hook.  Wouldn't really hold that against anyone.  I also wonder at people forgetting Karl Malone.  Yeah, he didn't win a championship, but he got [dang] close, and has the rest of the statistics to at least be in the conversation.  I mean, at KG's age he still averaged 26/10/4.

Karl Malone was a great player for a long time, but along with never winning, he was the only one of the all-time great PF's to play alongside a PG of Stockton's stature.


I'd go with Duncan/KG as the two best. McHale 3rd. Barkley/Malone round out the top 5.


KG is, IMHO, one of the three greatest defensive players ever (EVER). His career statistics are already one-of-a-kind (25K points, 15K rebounds, 5K assists, 1.5K steals, 1.5K blocks). His versatility makes him a very unique player.

Top three, who are the other two?

I presume Bill Russell is one. Who is the other one?

I don't think there is a top 3.  Russell and KG are just so far ahead of the rest of the pack.

However, if there was a top 3, I'd be inclined to give MJ serious consideration for the 3rd spot.  MJ's defense is often over-looked due to his prowess as a scorer.  He was an unbelievably good perimeter defender, though.

Re: ESPN: Is Garnett an All-Time Great?
« Reply #48 on: March 08, 2013, 02:37:10 PM »

Offline DavorCroatiaFan

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I believe in ten years folks will say: 3 best defensive players of all time- Russell, KG and Bradley  8)
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Re: ESPN: Is Garnett an All-Time Great?
« Reply #49 on: March 08, 2013, 02:46:40 PM »

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Top three, who are the other two?

I presume Bill Russell is one. Who is the other one?

I think Gary Payton is somewhere in the mix as long as we're not talking defensive bigs.

I'm slightly more interested in the 1st team all-time trash-talkers though.

Re: ESPN: Is Garnett an All-Time Great?
« Reply #50 on: March 08, 2013, 03:21:04 PM »

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IMO, the battle for the title of greatest power forward of all-time is between KG and Duncan. KG in his prime was a monster. 22 points, 13 rebounds, 5 assists, a block, and a steal nightly (combined with game changing defense). IMO, it doesn't matter how you play the game as long as your effective and KG was pretty [dang] effective.

The way Kevin McHale is overlooked around here is something else.  He was a great on both ends of the floor and was regularly abusing people before he lost his lift by playing through ridiculous injuries in the playoffs.  He could D up nearly everyone (not so much Kareems sky hook) and score in the post on anybody.
No one could guard Kareem's sky hook.  Wouldn't really hold that against anyone.  I also wonder at people forgetting Karl Malone.  Yeah, he didn't win a championship, but he got [dang] close, and has the rest of the statistics to at least be in the conversation.  I mean, at KG's age he still averaged 26/10/4.

Karl Malone was a great player for a long time, but along with never winning, he was the only one of the all-time great PF's to play alongside a PG of Stockton's stature.


I'd go with Duncan/KG as the two best. McHale 3rd. Barkley/Malone round out the top 5.


KG is, IMHO, one of the three greatest defensive players ever (EVER). His career statistics are already one-of-a-kind (25K points, 15K rebounds, 5K assists, 1.5K steals, 1.5K blocks). His versatility makes him a very unique player.

Top three, who are the other two?

I presume Bill Russell is one. Who is the other one?

I don't think there is a top 3.  Russell and KG are just so far ahead of the rest of the pack.

However, if there was a top 3, I'd be inclined to give MJ serious consideration for the 3rd spot.  MJ's defense is often over-looked due to his prowess as a scorer.  He was an unbelievably good perimeter defender, though.

I'm not sure that KG's defense was that head-and-shoulders above everyone else.  There have been a lot of great defensive players.  Just talking big men since 1980, you've got Hakeem, Dikembe, Ben Wallace.


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D. West / R. Anderson / C. Copeland
L. Deng / V. Carter / D. Rudez
A. Iguodala / M. Ginobili / B. Gordon
K. Irving / S. Livingston / S. Blake

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Re: ESPN: Is Garnett an All-Time Great?
« Reply #51 on: March 08, 2013, 03:30:48 PM »

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Duncan has been playing Center for a long time, KG has been mostly a PF. I think KG is the better PF on peak value and volume, but Duncan the better player, because being the primary offensive guy is the hardest part of the game, and KG didn't want that, and maybe couldn't be that.

McHale gets a serious discount in my opinion for his short peak and shorter career. I don't consider Barkley a great two way player, Dirk either. Pretty sure Malone was using steroids, so he's out, plus no ring.

It's too hard for me to say anything about the old(er) school guys.

It's not fair to judge Malone for not having a ring. KG never even sniffed a ring before coming to the Celtics and playing with two other future hall of fame players. And if you go by rings then Duncan is so far past KG that it's not even a contest. Even the Worm has KG smacked down in the ring department.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 03:44:34 PM by Onslaught »
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Re: ESPN: Is Garnett an All-Time Great?
« Reply #52 on: March 08, 2013, 03:37:52 PM »

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He is. Stats aside, the way he played basketball on court made him one. He was one of the two dominant forces in his position for over a decade alongside Duncan.
Their styles looked different, personalities look different. Rings don't tell how great you were. That's all about competition. 

Re: ESPN: Is Garnett an All-Time Great?
« Reply #53 on: March 08, 2013, 03:53:20 PM »

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KG is a really good defender. For sure in the top 10 regardless of position. But I feel that some of you either didn't see or are forgetting some other people before him.


Gary Payton
Scottie Pippen
MJ
David Robinson
Sidney Moncrief
Dikembe Mutombo
Nate Thurmond
Tim Duncan
Dennis Rodman
Hakee Olajuwon



That's just off the top of my head and I'm sure I'm forgetting some other greats.
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Re: ESPN: Is Garnett an All-Time Great?
« Reply #54 on: March 08, 2013, 04:11:06 PM »

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At first, I was going to tear into Skip Bayless for this commentary, but decided not to.

Admittedly, I like most of his commentary...I think that him and Stephen A make a good combo.

As far as his commentary with KG? I don't think, sadly, that he fully understands what KG was called on to do in Minny.

Flip Saunders asked KG to play ALL 5 positions, sometimes...not because he or KG wanted to showboat, but because he HAD TO, and he knew that KG was talented, smart and experienced enough to do so.

See article:

http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/7868121/2012-nba-playoffs-kevin-garnett-transformation-skinny-sf-all-nba-pf-center-boston-celtics-looking-tough-out

Quote
Flip Saunders was desperate. The Minnesota Timberwolves' coach had lost his starting point guard during the 2004 Western Conference finals against the Lakers. His backup point guard was injured. Even a third point guard, imported from the CBA, was injured.

So who did Saunders decide should run the Minnesota offense?

Who else? Kevin Garnett. "It was him and Freddy Hoiberg. They were my point guards," Saunders said.


And what did Garnett take away from it all?

"It was the worst experience of my life," Garnett said. "But I have a lot of respect for the point guard position just because of that."

The Timberwolves lost the series in six games and, as it turned out, that would be the last time the franchise participated in the playoffs. The next season he was back at his natural, power forward position, which is where he continued to play all the way up to the third week of February 2012.

KG played every position in Minny, and did well. The man averaged over 5 assists for several seasons in Minny, as well as played down low:



You can see Kevin McHale's influence all over KG's game in some of those moves..the up-and-unders...

Skip Bayless is sadly ignorant if he fails to fully research exactly WHAT KG was called upon to do in Minny. It is this kind of blatant ignorance that makes ESPN seem biased toward/against certain players sometimes.

And KG being a good, loyal soldier like he was/is - did exactly what Flip wanted...and he is doing what Doc wants, to - evidently.

I won't post it here, but ask Josh Smith and Al Horford what KG did to them - in the post - in that clinching game 6 vs ATL last yr...28, 14 and 5 blocks.

Slightly off-topic, but I recall Michael Jordan's comments about certain players that "he" thought could play back in his era (Kobe, Dirk, a couple of others I can't recall). I thought it was odd he left out KG.

I think that in Michael's omission of KG, he probably (ignorantly) thought that KG being tall "should" play center or down low "exclusively", which I don't agree with in KG's case..

KG, being the talent that he was, would've revolutionized the 80's.

But back to Skip...I like his and A's commentary, but I think he's off on this one.

He should go talk to Flip Saunders.


Re: ESPN: Is Garnett an All-Time Great?
« Reply #55 on: March 08, 2013, 04:19:54 PM »

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Re: ESPN: Is Garnett an All-Time Great?
« Reply #56 on: March 08, 2013, 04:30:09 PM »

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IMO, the battle for the title of greatest power forward of all-time is between KG and Duncan. KG in his prime was a monster. 22 points, 13 rebounds, 5 assists, a block, and a steal nightly (combined with game changing defense). IMO, it doesn't matter how you play the game as long as your effective and KG was pretty [dang] effective.

The way Kevin McHale is overlooked around here is something else.  He was a great on both ends of the floor and was regularly abusing people before he lost his lift by playing through ridiculous injuries in the playoffs.  He could D up nearly everyone (not so much Kareems sky hook) and score in the post on anybody.
No one could guard Kareem's sky hook.  Wouldn't really hold that against anyone.  I also wonder at people forgetting Karl Malone.  Yeah, he didn't win a championship, but he got [dang] close, and has the rest of the statistics to at least be in the conversation.  I mean, at KG's age he still averaged 26/10/4.

Karl Malone was a great player for a long time, but along with never winning, he was the only one of the all-time great PF's to play alongside a PG of Stockton's stature.


I'd go with Duncan/KG as the two best. McHale 3rd. Barkley/Malone round out the top 5.


KG is, IMHO, one of the three greatest defensive players ever (EVER). His career statistics are already one-of-a-kind (25K points, 15K rebounds, 5K assists, 1.5K steals, 1.5K blocks). His versatility makes him a very unique player.

Top three, who are the other two?

I presume Bill Russell is one. Who is the other one?

I don't think there is a top 3.  Russell and KG are just so far ahead of the rest of the pack.

However, if there was a top 3, I'd be inclined to give MJ serious consideration for the 3rd spot.  MJ's defense is often over-looked due to his prowess as a scorer.  He was an unbelievably good perimeter defender, though.

I'm not sure that KG's defense was that head-and-shoulders above everyone else.  There have been a lot of great defensive players.  Just talking big men since 1980, you've got Hakeem, Dikembe, Ben Wallace.

I really don't think Ben Wallace belongs on a list of all-time great defenders. Really never considered him to be dominant as a defender and it was a pretty quick peak.


Re: ESPN: Is Garnett an All-Time Great?
« Reply #57 on: March 08, 2013, 04:39:22 PM »

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IMO, the battle for the title of greatest power forward of all-time is between KG and Duncan. KG in his prime was a monster. 22 points, 13 rebounds, 5 assists, a block, and a steal nightly (combined with game changing defense). IMO, it doesn't matter how you play the game as long as your effective and KG was pretty [dang] effective.

The way Kevin McHale is overlooked around here is something else.  He was a great on both ends of the floor and was regularly abusing people before he lost his lift by playing through ridiculous injuries in the playoffs.  He could D up nearly everyone (not so much Kareems sky hook) and score in the post on anybody.
No one could guard Kareem's sky hook.  Wouldn't really hold that against anyone.  I also wonder at people forgetting Karl Malone.  Yeah, he didn't win a championship, but he got [dang] close, and has the rest of the statistics to at least be in the conversation.  I mean, at KG's age he still averaged 26/10/4.

Karl Malone was a great player for a long time, but along with never winning, he was the only one of the all-time great PF's to play alongside a PG of Stockton's stature.


I'd go with Duncan/KG as the two best. McHale 3rd. Barkley/Malone round out the top 5.


KG is, IMHO, one of the three greatest defensive players ever (EVER). His career statistics are already one-of-a-kind (25K points, 15K rebounds, 5K assists, 1.5K steals, 1.5K blocks). His versatility makes him a very unique player.

Top three, who are the other two?

I presume Bill Russell is one. Who is the other one?

I don't think there is a top 3.  Russell and KG are just so far ahead of the rest of the pack.

However, if there was a top 3, I'd be inclined to give MJ serious consideration for the 3rd spot.  MJ's defense is often over-looked due to his prowess as a scorer.  He was an unbelievably good perimeter defender, though.

I'm not sure that KG's defense was that head-and-shoulders above everyone else.  There have been a lot of great defensive players.  Just talking big men since 1980, you've got Hakeem, Dikembe, Ben Wallace.

I really don't think Ben Wallace belongs on a list of all-time great defenders. Really never considered him to be dominant as a defender and it was a pretty quick peak.

Defensive Player Of The Year:2003,04,05,06
All NBA Defensive Teams: 6
Rebound titles: 2
Blocks: 2,055
Ranks No.16 in the playoffs history for most blocks per game recorded ever
Ranks No.10 in the playoffs history for most blocks
Ranks No.18 on the all time list for career blocks
Ranks No.34 on the all time list for most career rebounds
Ranks No.55 on the all time lists for most steals
Had 6 seasons of at least,10+ boards,2+ blocks and 1+ steals per game


That was just with a quick search. So I'd say he's got the goods for it.
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Re: ESPN: Is Garnett an All-Time Great?
« Reply #58 on: March 08, 2013, 04:48:29 PM »

Offline CelticG1

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IMO, the battle for the title of greatest power forward of all-time is between KG and Duncan. KG in his prime was a monster. 22 points, 13 rebounds, 5 assists, a block, and a steal nightly (combined with game changing defense). IMO, it doesn't matter how you play the game as long as your effective and KG was pretty [dang] effective.

The way Kevin McHale is overlooked around here is something else.  He was a great on both ends of the floor and was regularly abusing people before he lost his lift by playing through ridiculous injuries in the playoffs.  He could D up nearly everyone (not so much Kareems sky hook) and score in the post on anybody.
No one could guard Kareem's sky hook.  Wouldn't really hold that against anyone.  I also wonder at people forgetting Karl Malone.  Yeah, he didn't win a championship, but he got [dang] close, and has the rest of the statistics to at least be in the conversation.  I mean, at KG's age he still averaged 26/10/4.

Karl Malone was a great player for a long time, but along with never winning, he was the only one of the all-time great PF's to play alongside a PG of Stockton's stature.


I'd go with Duncan/KG as the two best. McHale 3rd. Barkley/Malone round out the top 5.


KG is, IMHO, one of the three greatest defensive players ever (EVER). His career statistics are already one-of-a-kind (25K points, 15K rebounds, 5K assists, 1.5K steals, 1.5K blocks). His versatility makes him a very unique player.

Top three, who are the other two?

I presume Bill Russell is one. Who is the other one?

I don't think there is a top 3.  Russell and KG are just so far ahead of the rest of the pack.

However, if there was a top 3, I'd be inclined to give MJ serious consideration for the 3rd spot.  MJ's defense is often over-looked due to his prowess as a scorer.  He was an unbelievably good perimeter defender, though.

I'm not sure that KG's defense was that head-and-shoulders above everyone else.  There have been a lot of great defensive players.  Just talking big men since 1980, you've got Hakeem, Dikembe, Ben Wallace.

I really don't think Ben Wallace belongs on a list of all-time great defenders. Really never considered him to be dominant as a defender and it was a pretty quick peak.

Defensive Player Of The Year:2003,04,05,06
All NBA Defensive Teams: 6
Rebound titles: 2
Blocks: 2,055
Ranks No.16 in the playoffs history for most blocks per game recorded ever
Ranks No.10 in the playoffs history for most blocks
Ranks No.18 on the all time list for career blocks
Ranks No.34 on the all time list for most career rebounds
Ranks No.55 on the all time lists for most steals
Had 6 seasons of at least,10+ boards,2+ blocks and 1+ steals per game


That was just with a quick search. So I'd say he's got the goods for it.

Yeah to me those aren't the goods. I'm thinking if we are talking Best defenders from 1980 he isn't top 3.

Yeah he was a great defender but top 3 over the past 30 years? No not to me.

Re: ESPN: Is Garnett an All-Time Great?
« Reply #59 on: March 08, 2013, 04:59:39 PM »

Online Roy H.

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IMO, the battle for the title of greatest power forward of all-time is between KG and Duncan. KG in his prime was a monster. 22 points, 13 rebounds, 5 assists, a block, and a steal nightly (combined with game changing defense). IMO, it doesn't matter how you play the game as long as your effective and KG was pretty [dang] effective.

The way Kevin McHale is overlooked around here is something else.  He was a great on both ends of the floor and was regularly abusing people before he lost his lift by playing through ridiculous injuries in the playoffs.  He could D up nearly everyone (not so much Kareems sky hook) and score in the post on anybody.
No one could guard Kareem's sky hook.  Wouldn't really hold that against anyone.  I also wonder at people forgetting Karl Malone.  Yeah, he didn't win a championship, but he got [dang] close, and has the rest of the statistics to at least be in the conversation.  I mean, at KG's age he still averaged 26/10/4.

Karl Malone was a great player for a long time, but along with never winning, he was the only one of the all-time great PF's to play alongside a PG of Stockton's stature.


I'd go with Duncan/KG as the two best. McHale 3rd. Barkley/Malone round out the top 5.


KG is, IMHO, one of the three greatest defensive players ever (EVER). His career statistics are already one-of-a-kind (25K points, 15K rebounds, 5K assists, 1.5K steals, 1.5K blocks). His versatility makes him a very unique player.

Top three, who are the other two?

I presume Bill Russell is one. Who is the other one?

I don't think there is a top 3.  Russell and KG are just so far ahead of the rest of the pack.

However, if there was a top 3, I'd be inclined to give MJ serious consideration for the 3rd spot.  MJ's defense is often over-looked due to his prowess as a scorer.  He was an unbelievably good perimeter defender, though.

I'm not sure that KG's defense was that head-and-shoulders above everyone else.  There have been a lot of great defensive players.  Just talking big men since 1980, you've got Hakeem, Dikembe, Ben Wallace.

I really don't think Ben Wallace belongs on a list of all-time great defenders. Really never considered him to be dominant as a defender and it was a pretty quick peak.

Defensive Player Of The Year:2003,04,05,06
All NBA Defensive Teams: 6
Rebound titles: 2
Blocks: 2,055
Ranks No.16 in the playoffs history for most blocks per game recorded ever
Ranks No.10 in the playoffs history for most blocks
Ranks No.18 on the all time list for career blocks
Ranks No.34 on the all time list for most career rebounds
Ranks No.55 on the all time lists for most steals
Had 6 seasons of at least,10+ boards,2+ blocks and 1+ steals per game


That was just with a quick search. So I'd say he's got the goods for it.

Yeah to me those aren't the goods. I'm thinking if we are talking Best defenders from 1980 he isn't top 3.

Yeah he was a great defender but top 3 over the past 30 years? No not to me.

I never said he was top-3 of the past 30 years.  However, I don't think KG stands head-and-shoulders over Wallace as a defender.

Wallace won four DPOY awards.  He'll be recognized as a historically great defender.


D. Cousins / F. Ezeli / P. Antic
D. West / R. Anderson / C. Copeland
L. Deng / V. Carter / D. Rudez
A. Iguodala / M. Ginobili / B. Gordon
K. Irving / S. Livingston / S. Blake

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