ESPN: Is Garnett an All-Time Great?

[scaryjerry]

They never said he wasn't an all time great....they rightly said he could've been better.

he really wasn't a winner until he got here, and he didn't have great teammates because of his own contract...deal with it.

[LooseCannon]

I think Garnett getting more of his offense inside would have made him worse.

[RebusRankin]

2001-2003, Wally Szczerbiak was the second best player playing with KG. KG is MVP runner up both years and his team wins 50 games. Duncan is the MVP those two years and has David Robinson at the end of his career, plus a young Tony Parker, young Manu, Stephan Jackson etc.

[CelticConcourse]

They never said he wasn't an all time great....they rightly said he could've been better.

he really wasn't a winner until he got here, and he didn't have great teammates because of his own contract...deal with it.

Blame the organization, not the contract.

[CelticG1]

IMO, the battle for the title of greatest power forward of all-time is between KG and Duncan. KG in his prime was a monster. 22 points, 13 rebounds, 5 assists, a block, and a steal nightly (combined with game changing defense). IMO, it doesn't matter how you play the game as long as your effective and KG was pretty [dang] effective.

The way Kevin McHale is overlooked around here is something else.  He was a great on both ends of the floor and was regularly abusing people before he lost his lift by playing through ridiculous injuries in the playoffs.  He could D up nearly everyone (not so much Kareems sky hook) and score in the post on anybody.

No one could guard Kareem's sky hook.  Wouldn't really hold that against anyone.  I also wonder at people forgetting Karl Malone.  Yeah, he didn't win a championship, but he got [dang] close, and has the rest of the statistics to at least be in the conversation.  I mean, at KG's age he still averaged 26/10/4.

Karl Malone was a great player for a long time, but along with never winning, he was the only one of the all-time great PF's to play alongside a PG of Stockton's stature.


I'd go with Duncan/KG as the two best. McHale 3rd. Barkley/Malone round out the top 5.


KG is, IMHO, one of the three greatest defensive players ever (EVER). His career statistics are already one-of-a-kind (25K points, 15K rebounds, 5K assists, 1.5K steals, 1.5K blocks). His versatility makes him a very unique player.

Top three, who are the other two?

I presume Bill Russell is one. Who is the other one?

I don't think there is a top 3.  Russell and KG are just so far ahead of the rest of the pack.

However, if there was a top 3, I'd be inclined to give MJ serious consideration for the 3rd spot.  MJ's defense is often over-looked due to his prowess as a scorer.  He was an unbelievably good perimeter defender, though.

I'm not sure that KG's defense was that head-and-shoulders above everyone else.  There have been a lot of great defensive players.  Just talking big men since 1980, you've got Hakeem, Dikembe, Ben Wallace.

I really don't think Ben Wallace belongs on a list of all-time great defenders. Really never considered him to be dominant as a defender and it was a pretty quick peak.

Defensive Player Of The Year:2003,04,05,06
All NBA Defensive Teams: 6
Rebound titles: 2
Blocks: 2,055
Ranks No.16 in the playoffs history for most blocks per game recorded ever
Ranks No.10 in the playoffs history for most blocks
Ranks No.18 on the all time list for career blocks
Ranks No.34 on the all time list for most career rebounds
Ranks No.55 on the all time lists for most steals
Had 6 seasons of at least,10+ boards,2+ blocks and 1+ steals per game


That was just with a quick search. So I'd say he's got the goods for it.

Yeah to me those aren't the goods. I'm thinking if we are talking Best defenders from 1980 he isn't top 3.

Yeah he was a great defender but top 3 over the past 30 years? No not to me.

I never said he was top-3 of the past 30 years.  However, I don't think KG stands head-and-shoulders over Wallace as a defender.

Wallace won four DPOY awards.  He'll be recognized as a historically great defender.

He may be I don't think he should be though.

It is hard to tell because it's hard to say would you rather have KG with zero offense or Ben wallace and it's just hard to picture or imagine.

I think a lot of times all-time greats or guys that can really score the ball certainly are hurt when it comes to "DPOY" award.

It's pretty rare for an MVP to win DPOY award to and to me I think part of the reason is because they like to spread the wealth around a little.

I mean is Serge Ibaka or Tyson Chandler really a better defender than Lebron James?

[GreenEnvy]

IMO, the battle for the title of greatest power forward of all-time is between KG and Duncan. KG in his prime was a monster. 22 points, 13 rebounds, 5 assists, a block, and a steal nightly (combined with game changing defense). IMO, it doesn't matter how you play the game as long as your effective and KG was pretty [dang] effective.

The way Kevin McHale is overlooked around here is something else.  He was a great on both ends of the floor and was regularly abusing people before he lost his lift by playing through ridiculous injuries in the playoffs.  He could D up nearly everyone (not so much Kareems sky hook) and score in the post on anybody.

No one could guard Kareem's sky hook.  Wouldn't really hold that against anyone.  I also wonder at people forgetting Karl Malone.  Yeah, he didn't win a championship, but he got [dang] close, and has the rest of the statistics to at least be in the conversation.  I mean, at KG's age he still averaged 26/10/4.

Karl Malone was a great player for a long time, but along with never winning, he was the only one of the all-time great PF's to play alongside a PG of Stockton's stature.


I'd go with Duncan/KG as the two best. McHale 3rd. Barkley/Malone round out the top 5.


KG is, IMHO, one of the three greatest defensive players ever (EVER). His career statistics are already one-of-a-kind (25K points, 15K rebounds, 5K assists, 1.5K steals, 1.5K blocks). His versatility makes him a very unique player.

Top three, who are the other two?

I presume Bill Russell is one. Who is the other one?

Russell and Hakeem. I'd sandwich KG between them.

I would never consider a backcourt/wing player in the discussion, but watching AB every game makes me think guys like Payton and Pippen could have impacted games nearly as much as an all-time great big could.

[Surferdad]

I just can give no weight or import to anything Skip "Way-Less" Bayless says ... he's one of those people my minds shuts off every time it hears his voice.

I guess he's allowed an opinion like the rest of us, it's just sad that he's able to spread it around so far-and-wide, (he and Felger should hook up ... two-of-a-kind).

But he has a megaphone too, so apparently more of a right than most of us to throw his idiotic opinion out there. Guys like him and Felger pretend to know basketball but they know nothing. Felger will forever think that Paul Pierce fakes every single injury, apparently he doesn't think basketball is a contact sport. Both jerks.

[Moranis]

IMO, the battle for the title of greatest power forward of all-time is between KG and Duncan. KG in his prime was a monster. 22 points, 13 rebounds, 5 assists, a block, and a steal nightly (combined with game changing defense). IMO, it doesn't matter how you play the game as long as your effective and KG was pretty [dang] effective.

The way Kevin McHale is overlooked around here is something else.  He was a great on both ends of the floor and was regularly abusing people before he lost his lift by playing through ridiculous injuries in the playoffs.  He could D up nearly everyone (not so much Kareems sky hook) and score in the post on anybody.

No one could guard Kareem's sky hook.  Wouldn't really hold that against anyone.  I also wonder at people forgetting Karl Malone.  Yeah, he didn't win a championship, but he got [dang] close, and has the rest of the statistics to at least be in the conversation.  I mean, at KG's age he still averaged 26/10/4.

Karl Malone was a great player for a long time, but along with never winning, he was the only one of the all-time great PF's to play alongside a PG of Stockton's stature.


I'd go with Duncan/KG as the two best. McHale 3rd. Barkley/Malone round out the top 5.


KG is, IMHO, one of the three greatest defensive players ever (EVER). His career statistics are already one-of-a-kind (25K points, 15K rebounds, 5K assists, 1.5K steals, 1.5K blocks). His versatility makes him a very unique player.

Top three, who are the other two?

I presume Bill Russell is one. Who is the other one?

Dennis Rodman is the greatest defender I've seen in my lifetime and I don't think it is close.

[Snakehead]

2001-2003, Wally Szczerbiak was the second best player playing with KG. KG is MVP runner up both years and his team wins 50 games. Duncan is the MVP those two years and has David Robinson at the end of his career, plus a young Tony Parker, young Manu, Stephan Jackson etc.

I think this says all you need to say comparing them.

I wish I could post the image, but in the FreeDarko book, they have a diagram in the KG section that makes each player on a team's total production as a circle that is larger with more total production, with each team being cluster of these circles.  They have a few different teams shown, and KGs Timberwolves teams show his as KG's massive circle surrounded by much smaller ones.  He was so central to why these teams succeeded, he never played with anyone remotely close to his level.

[crownsy]

That's what you get for watching First Take.  From my experience, this is the level of "analysis" they show there daily.

Unless you define "all-time great" as being among the top 5 or 6 players ever, then of course KG is a historically great player.  He is a clear-cut top-five PF of all-time, and some would say the best PF ever (although I would disagree).

TP, I don't get the appeal. I mean, people realize that they literally talk out what completely contrasting opinions they are going to take just to yell at each other right?

I mean yes, all talk shows do that, but this one is even faker than most. There was a clip not to long ago that I can't find on youtube, where Skip and Smith thought they were off air and skip asks smith something like " wait, whats my position on this? Am I doing the pro or negative take?"

I mean, I get that all talking head shows do this, but it seems like these two, and skip in particular, don't really have any actual facts to articulate to defend their positions because they are just fed them by a producer.

Felger and Maz, for example, are the same setup, but I believe they actually hold their opinions, and can defend them in an intelligent manner. I feel like on first take, they just show up for the day and are told what to say and to scream at each other. Stopped watching it awhile ago.   

As to is KG an all time great, Of course he is. Not in a "oh man he's top 5 all time!!!!" way, but top 30-25 of all time? you bet.

[crownsy]

I just can give no weight or import to anything Skip "Way-Less" Bayless says ... he's one of those people my minds shuts off every time it hears his voice.

I guess he's allowed an opinion like the rest of us, it's just sad that he's able to spread it around so far-and-wide, (he and Felger should hook up ... two-of-a-kind).

But he has a megaphone too, so apparently more of a right than most of us to throw his idiotic opinion out there. Guys like him and Felger pretend to know basketball but they know nothing. Felger will forever think that Paul Pierce fakes every single injury, apparently he doesn't think basketball is a contact sport. Both jerks.

The difference is, felger prefaces every celtics rant by saying he's not a fan of the sport and not as knowledgeable as actual basketball writers/hosts ect.

Skip would have you believe he's on the same level as Wojo.

[Snakehead]

[quote author=crownsy
Felger and Maz, for example, are the same setup, but I believe they actually hold their opinions, and can defend them in an intelligent manner. I feel like on first take, they just show up for the day and are told what to say and to scream at each other. Stopped watching it awhile ago.   

[/quote]

You had me, and then you lost me.

Felger and Maz are as bad and uninformed as it gets.  Worst than First Take, which is saying something.

[crownsy]

How so?

Look, Felger certainly plays up the contrarian stance to tweak the audience, but he always has some sort of factual basis for his stance, and will defend his opnions when callers want to debate him on them.

Skip just takes whatever is handed to him and screams "I'M RIGHT!!! NA NA!!! I DRIVE A DODGE STRATUS!!!!!" and never has ANY facts to back anything he says up, or even a opinion he can articulate beyond "OUTRAGE!!!!" . he never has any analysis, ect other than "derp, my gut says so, so your wrong, deeerrp."

Felger is certainly annoying, and I understand he tweaks us celtics fans harder than most because he admits he knows nothing about basketball yet proceeds to discuss it, but felger is a far better sports talking head than skip, it's not even close.

[Eja117]

I saw Stephen A. Smith's face and decided not to click play.

I hate to say this, because Stephen A. Smith is a friend of mine. Stephen A. Smith performed my son's briss. Stephen A. Smith and I own a timeshare together in Ogunquit with side-by-side clawfoot bathtubs overlooking the water.

but Stephen A. Smith is a complete boob and no one should ever take anything he says seriously ever. If I was in a crowded movie theater and Stephen A. Smith yelled "fire," I would sit tight and hope that at least it meant he was leaving.

T to the P on that one. That is the most creative way of saying you don't like a sports personality I ever saw

[Eja117]

First take to me is kind of an example of two wrongs making a right. And Skip is usually right.

But I'd say KG strikes me kind of like Skip said .....an all time great, but not near all time greatest. Just in his era I'd put both Duncan and Dirk ahead of him.

I feel this same way every time someone mentions Wilt Chamberlain.  I just think "Oh. You mean that guy that Russell always beat?"  I feel the same way in the Brady vs Peyton argument.

And I don't buy the teammate argument in this. If you give KG Tony Parker and Manu and you give Duncan PP and Ray and Rondo what happens? 

And I'm fine with the rings only count as tie breaker argument. All these guys have stats so lets go to the rings? Now what?

On a scale from one to ten Duncan is a ten. Kg is like an 8.9. 8.9 is really really good. It's Hall of Fame. But it's not a ten.

Basically if you walk down the Hall of Fame corridor (fictionally) and there's a door that says "Best power forwards ever" the busts of Dirk and KG are guarding that door with Malone and Barkley right before them...in the buildup to that room.  Also Sistine Chapel style paintings of Dennis Rodman are on the ceiling.  Bill Walton welcomes you in.  Duncan is in the throne. And Ducan is watching video of Kevin McHale. The basketball player, not the Glee singer

Although on the other hand I do think Malone and Barkley's two Olympic golds count for at least one ring. Duncan and Dirk don't have one and KG has one