Author Topic: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate  (Read 16859 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #120 on: March 06, 2013, 06:58:51 PM »

Offline badshar

  • Jeff Green
  • Posts: 577
  • Tommy Points: 67
So why does the Cs offense show no ill effects, and actually some improvement, since he left the line up? How do they miss him? What has the team lacked without him?

You use the phrase "fact of the matter" in your post. The fact is they haven't missed him statistically, and his absence obviously hasn't hurt their ability to win (or not lose) games.

So can you offer some basic, factual explanation of how the Celtics have been in any way adversely effected by his injury?

Just point to a high level area or catagory. Anything.

  I think you're missing my point. Aside from Rondo our top 5 scorers are Pierce, KG, Green, Terry and Bradley. Pierce is playing better than he was in January, presumably because his pinched nerve is less of a problem. Terry is playing better than he was in January because he was struggling with a knee injury for a while. Bradley's playing better because he was out for so long and had a rib injury. Green's playing better because he's healthier and more comfortable, and his shooting percentages have been increasing significantly as the season's progressed.

  So with Rondo out we've only played about 2 out of 16 games against top 10 defenses and 4 of our top 5 offensive players are playing noticeably better than they were before. Considering that we were a top 10 offense in November we should be well above that now. We're not. With the other players playing at the level they are now *with* Rondo we would be.

I'm not missing the point at all. Stop making excuses and answer the question directly.

What have the 2012-13 Boston Celtics lacked without Rondo?
The 2012-13 Boston Celtics have lacked a player who draws the defense and multiple defenders to him to allow other players on the team to get open for an easy jumper, layup or dunk.

Pierce and KG do, at times.
Rondo did that so Pierce and KG among other could be open for shots.

Plus, if they are going to do it all season, what will happen in the playoffs?
Pierce and KG have superstar traits, hence they are still able to carry this team on nightly basis, but its stupid to expect them to do that against teams like OKC and Heat all while playing way too many minutes per game and way too many games per year.

Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #121 on: March 06, 2013, 07:09:10 PM »

Offline eugen

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1224
  • Tommy Points: 37

Also, did you completely ignore that we always had some sort of injury that held us short?

2009 - KG's injury
2010 - Perkins' injury
2011 - Rondo's injury
2012 - Pierce and Allen injured and a bench that scores a grand total of 2 points
2013 - Rondo is already down and the championship chances have taken a very big hit.


If you go this way, tell me how many surgeries had Ginobili? How about Parker? A good team does not have to be depended on one player.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 07:17:57 PM by eugen »

Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #122 on: March 06, 2013, 07:11:18 PM »

Offline eugen

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1224
  • Tommy Points: 37

Again, let's use the brain a bit and stop making ignorant and stupid arguments.

By the way, did you honestly just say Westbrook is better playmaker than Rondo?



I am ignorant and you are suddently "smart"...?! If you tell me that Rondo is beter than Westbrook, I do not know who is ignorant...

Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #123 on: March 06, 2013, 07:11:51 PM »

Offline CelticConcourse

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6175
  • Tommy Points: 382
  • Jeff Green
So why does the Cs offense show no ill effects, and actually some improvement, since he left the line up? How do they miss him? What has the team lacked without him?

You use the phrase "fact of the matter" in your post. The fact is they haven't missed him statistically, and his absence obviously hasn't hurt their ability to win (or not lose) games.

So can you offer some basic, factual explanation of how the Celtics have been in any way adversely effected by his injury?

Just point to a high level area or catagory. Anything.

  I think you're missing my point. Aside from Rondo our top 5 scorers are Pierce, KG, Green, Terry and Bradley. Pierce is playing better than he was in January, presumably because his pinched nerve is less of a problem. Terry is playing better than he was in January because he was struggling with a knee injury for a while. Bradley's playing better because he was out for so long and had a rib injury. Green's playing better because he's healthier and more comfortable, and his shooting percentages have been increasing significantly as the season's progressed.

  So with Rondo out we've only played about 2 out of 16 games against top 10 defenses and 4 of our top 5 offensive players are playing noticeably better than they were before. Considering that we were a top 10 offense in November we should be well above that now. We're not. With the other players playing at the level they are now *with* Rondo we would be.

I'm not missing the point at all. Stop making excuses and answer the question directly.

What have the 2012-13 Boston Celtics lacked without Rondo?
The 2012-13 Boston Celtics have lacked a player who draws the defense and multiple defenders to him to allow other players on the team to get open for an easy jumper, layup or dunk.

Pierce and KG do, at times.
Rondo did that so Pierce and KG among other could be open for shots.

Plus, if they are going to do it all season, what will happen in the playoffs?
Pierce and KG have superstar traits, hence they are still able to carry this team on nightly basis, but its stupid to expect them to do that against teams like OKC and Heat all while playing way too many minutes per game and way too many games per year.

I think it's rather obvious Pierce and KG will play better in the postseason than in the regular season, being more superstarlike
Jeff Green - Top 5 SF

[Kevin Garnett]
"I've always said J. Green is going to be one of the best players to ever play this game"

Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #124 on: March 06, 2013, 07:12:01 PM »

Offline Celtics18

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8720
  • Tommy Points: 1127
There's a huge difference between adding significant value to this collection of Celtics, and adding huge value to someone else's team.

Again, the issue isn't whether Rondo is a quality point guard. He is.

The issue is that the evidence is mounting that he is a poor fit with this current collection of Celtics. For those of you who focus on individuals rather than the Celtic franchise, be mad at Ainge. He's the one who assembled this group.

Rondo needs to be surrounded by big-time scorers to be at his most effective. Imagine him running the Heat.

He isn't surrounded by anything like that in Boston, like he once was. As Pierce, Garnett and Allen declined, so did Rondo's value to this franchise.

The evidence is growing: Rondo is no longer a good fit in Boston. Doesn't mean he has no value elsewhere; in fact, it means there's conceivably a match with another team in search of his kind of game.

Ainge can and should aggressively market him in the off-season. It's the best thing for Rondo, and the best thing for the Celtics.

I contend that Rondo will fit best with a team that pushes the pace much more than the Celtics have ever done during his tenure here.  Like Brian Scalabrine noted in the recent SI interview it's fairly astonishing that he's been able to do what he's done over the course of the past five seasons, playing with such a slow pace team. 

I won't go as far as to say that KG, Pierce, and Ray Allen (when he was here) have been holding him back, because I think that being raised by those veteran future hall of famers has been of immense value to him as a player.  However, I do think that if Danny can build an up tempo team around him for the future, that he will be able to take his game to even higher levels than we've already seen. 

I think it would be immense folly to trade him while his return value is at an all time low due to his knee injury.  Of course, there's no guarantee that he ever fully recovers from his knee surgery, but if he does, we already have some nice pieces around him to build a team around our young star that will suit his strengths. 

Yes, we'll need a few more pieces, but, luckily we also have some assets to accomplish that if our GM plays his cards right.
Philadelphia Seventy-Sixers  DKC General Manager

Dennis Schroeder/Ray McCallum
Tyreke Evans/Jeremy Lamb/R. Ledo
Giannis Antetokounpo/Darrell Arthur/V. Claver
Kelly Olynyk/Nerlens Noel/C. Jefferson
Brandan Wright/Timofey Mozgov/A. Nicholson

Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #125 on: March 06, 2013, 07:23:51 PM »

Offline badshar

  • Jeff Green
  • Posts: 577
  • Tommy Points: 67

Again, let's use the brain a bit and stop making ignorant and stupid arguments.

By the way, did you honestly just say Westbrook is better playmaker than Rondo?



I am ignorant and you are suddently "smart"...?! If you tell me that Rondo is beter than Westbrook, I do not know who is ignorant...
Being a better playmaker doesn't mean you are a better player.

Your posts repeatedly display your lack of knowledge.

Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #126 on: March 06, 2013, 07:24:07 PM »

Offline ssspence

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • ****
  • Posts: 4594
  • Tommy Points: 264
  • James Naismith to Dickey Betts for the jam.....

imagine a player who twists his ankle and hobbles around on the court until the next time out. They take his shoe off and tape up his ankle so he can run fine but put the wrong size shoe back on his foot. He can barely run in the too tight shoe but you keep telling him he doesn't need a different shoe because he's running a little bit faster than he was with the twisted ankle.

I think you're right. I am missing your point, because I really don't have any idea what you're talking about.

What the first part of your answer boils down to? Basically the Cs miss sizzle, even if it doesn't result in anything tangible.

So maybe we can try this a different, more productive way. Do you think Rondo can learn anything from how the Cs have been playing without him? If so, how do you see him taking that knowledge and applying it to improve his play and approach?


« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 07:34:10 PM by ssspence »

Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #127 on: March 06, 2013, 07:29:21 PM »

Offline badshar

  • Jeff Green
  • Posts: 577
  • Tommy Points: 67

Also, did you completely ignore that we always had some sort of injury that held us short?

2009 - KG's injury
2010 - Perkins' injury
2011 - Rondo's injury
2012 - Pierce and Allen injured and a bench that scores a grand total of 2 points
2013 - Rondo is already down and the championship chances have taken a very big hit.


If you go this way, tell me how many surgeries had Ginobili? How about Parker? A good team does not have to be depended on one player.
You just showed your lack of understanding and knowledge again.

Their main anchors has always been Tim Duncan and Parker, at least as of recent times. Earlier, it was Duncan and Ginobili.

Also, KG and Duncan had two different playing styles. There are two different coaches.

Poppovich can still get his desired results by playing the backups, Doc can't because he is too dependent on his stars.

Also, are you seriously comparing KG's injury which took away his explosiveness from to injuries that Ginobili and Parker had?

By the way, the Spurs have not won a championship since 2007, in case you didn't know.

Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #128 on: March 06, 2013, 08:13:21 PM »

Offline connor

  • Jeff Green
  • Posts: 568
  • Tommy Points: 37
There's a huge difference between adding significant value to this collection of Celtics, and adding huge value to someone else's team.

Again, the issue isn't whether Rondo is a quality point guard. He is.

The issue is that the evidence is mounting that he is a poor fit with this current collection of Celtics. For those of you who focus on individuals rather than the Celtic franchise, be mad at Ainge. He's the one who assembled this group.

Rondo needs to be surrounded by big-time scorers to be at his most effective. Imagine him running the Heat.

He isn't surrounded by anything like that in Boston, like he once was. As Pierce, Garnett and Allen declined, so did Rondo's value to this franchise.

The evidence is growing: Rondo is no longer a good fit in Boston. Doesn't mean he has no value elsewhere; in fact, it means there's conceivably a match with another team in search of his kind of game.

Ainge can and should aggressively market him in the off-season. It's the best thing for Rondo, and the best thing for the Celtics.

See coachbo's post below yours for my explanation as to why trading Rondo would make sense and why a trade where Boston gets good return would be feasible.

I think there were a number of trades at the deadline involving the Hawks that would have made sense for Rondo.  Lou Williams and Jeff Teague straight up would have made a lot of sense if Atlanta wanted to keep Smith that would have been a good way to help entice him to stay.  A 3-way trade with Phoenix, Atlanta, and Boston where Boston essentially traded rondo, lee, terry, and bass for lou williams, teague, dudley, and beasley would have made a lot of sense for the 3 teams involved (dragic, gortat, and smith were also in the trade). 

I think this summer there will be options out there where Boston trades Rondo to a team for a lottery pick in the draft and some other pieces if there is someone Ainge really likes.  Orlando and New Orleans seem like places that might want a guy like Rondo to run their teams and they all have the salaries to make a draft day trade work, plus at least one lottery pick and/or recent lottery picks to trade.  Charlotte has Kemba Walker and 2 lottery picks, not to mention Gordon's salary.  I think a reasonable trade would be Gordon, Walker, and the Blazers pick for Rondo and Sullinger (or something like that). 

It is just too bad the Thunder don't have a need for Rondo as they have a lot of draft picks coming their way as a result of the Harden trade.

There will be plenty of trades out there that make sense for the acquiring team and where Boston still gets solid value back.  It won't be Rondo the player value, but it won't be chump change either.

@Coachbo Firstly, I completely understand your point, I just happen to disagree entirely. But I realize that some of the people here weren't arguing thee quality of Rondo, but rather his fit/role on this team. My point was more for those arguing that his he was overhyped and not a great point guard (although in hindsight I'd be better off leaving those people to argue amongst themselves).

No Rondo isn't surrounded by big time scorers, but he is surrounded by several quality scorers whose ability he can maximize by facilitating their individual strengths. As the team is currently constructed, they have very good pieces but few players who are going to be consistently outstanding. Rondo's particular skill set fits well with that team dynamic because he can help guys maximize their potential by getting the ball to them in the right spots and making it easier for them to succeed with the tools they have, but he can also still take over a game on his own when no one else is stepping up.

Yes he would benefit from playing with a team that has "big-time scorers", but those guys are dubbed big-time scorers because they have the ability to score without needing a guy like Rondo to get them the ball in the right spots. They can do it anywhere, any time, they just have that talent. Where Rondo can truly add value is by putting guys that don't have that kind of ability in the best position to succeed. Thats what we have seen from him in the past.

But hey, thats just my opnion I can't say that he wouldn't be better off on a team with elite scorers because we haven't seen him play with guys like that (caveat: early on in the first year/2 of the big 3 era he did have that talent around him but he wasn't running the show like he does now). What I can say is that we've seen him have tremendous success in the past with a similar cast of characters as the ones presently on the roster and I think so many things were going poorly early on this season that its unfair to characterize his fit with this team based on their early play. I think most everyone (except Bass) has improved as time has gone on.

@Celtics18 Personally i don't think I'd make any of those trades you've suggested, certainly not the Hawks trade or the one that involves the Suns as well, although I'll admit I would discuss Eric Gordon and a lottery pick and see what might work there. And I don't doubt that there would be several trades that could bring back decent value. But thats obviously because I have a very different view of Rondo's fit with the Celtics than you and Coachbo, so I probably value his ability here more than the two of you would given that you both see his style being more suited for another team.

As I said above I see Rondo as a guy who can make a team like the Celtics, that lacks the star power and fire power to take on the likes of the Heat and the Thunder, have the ability to win on any given night because of what he can do to help other guys play to their best. So while yes we could potentially move him for some quality pieces that would help us play in a different style that may suit our current group better, I just can't imagine giving him up for any offer that didn't blow my socks off. He has the potential to be the cornerstone for an organization for many years to come and with KG and PP certainly in the last years of their careers Rondo is going to be a guy I want to build around.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 08:18:34 PM by connor »

Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #129 on: March 06, 2013, 08:33:02 PM »

Online BballTim

  • Sam Jones
  • **********************
  • Posts: 22904
  • Tommy Points: 1056

imagine a player who twists his ankle and hobbles around on the court until the next time out. They take his shoe off and tape up his ankle so he can run fine but put the wrong size shoe back on his foot. He can barely run in the too tight shoe but you keep telling him he doesn't need a different shoe because he's running a little bit faster than he was with the twisted ankle.

I think you're right. I am missing your point, because I really don't have any idea what you're talking about.

What the first part of your answer boils down to? Basically the Cs miss sizzle, even if it doesn't result in anything tangible.

So maybe we can try this a different, more productive way. Do you think Rondo can learn anything from how the Cs have been playing without him? If so, how do you see him taking that knowledge and applying it to improve his play and approach?

  First of all it's not about sizzle. I don't see why you can't get this. We didn't suck on offense all year long and suddenly start playing good when Rondo left. We started out playing very good offense (even with Green, who's playing very good now, playing much less consistently). We went from playing very well to playing poorly. Since Rondo was controlling the offense when we were playing very good on offense and he was still controlling the offense when it slumped it doesn't take a genius to figure out that something other than Rondo controlling the ball led to the slump.

  So for whatever reason, the team was in a slump. You can see it in PP and KG and Terry's numbers for various months. They're no longer in that slump. So considering how well Green is playing and our main offensive players are all playing better we should be *better* than we were earlier this year. We're not. That's because we're missing our best player.

  And it's probably a mix of Rondo, Doc and the other players all learning things based on how the team's played over the last month or so. I know that people here think that Rondo rules the team with an iron fist and oppresses his teammates but that's not the case. He's probably doing pretty much what Doc wants him to, and there's probably a lot of truth to what Danny and KG said about the team relying too much on Rondo.

Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #130 on: March 06, 2013, 09:28:32 PM »

Offline CoachBo

  • NCE
  • Jim Loscutoff
  • ****
  • Posts: 4514
  • Tommy Points: 234
13-4

Cha-ching.


Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #131 on: March 06, 2013, 09:33:03 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

  • NCE
  • Danny Ainge
  • **********
  • Posts: 10209
  • Tommy Points: 539
we would have blown Indy out if we had Rondo.... ::)

Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #132 on: March 06, 2013, 09:34:27 PM »

Offline eugen

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1224
  • Tommy Points: 37
we would have blown Indy out if we had Rondo.... ::)

No for sure.

Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #133 on: March 06, 2013, 09:36:59 PM »

Offline eugen

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1224
  • Tommy Points: 37

Again, let's use the brain a bit and stop making ignorant and stupid arguments.

By the way, did you honestly just say Westbrook is better playmaker than Rondo?



I am ignorant and you are suddently "smart"...?! If you tell me that Rondo is beter than Westbrook, I do not know who is ignorant...
Being a better playmaker doesn't mean you are a better player.

Your posts repeatedly display your lack of knowledge.

I have lack of knowledge, and you are smarter ;D. Cs continuing to win and be strong without Rondo, and you are making bla bla bla

Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #134 on: March 06, 2013, 09:39:43 PM »

Offline Celtics18

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8720
  • Tommy Points: 1127
There's a huge difference between adding significant value to this collection of Celtics, and adding huge value to someone else's team.

Again, the issue isn't whether Rondo is a quality point guard. He is.

The issue is that the evidence is mounting that he is a poor fit with this current collection of Celtics. For those of you who focus on individuals rather than the Celtic franchise, be mad at Ainge. He's the one who assembled this group.

Rondo needs to be surrounded by big-time scorers to be at his most effective. Imagine him running the Heat.

He isn't surrounded by anything like that in Boston, like he once was. As Pierce, Garnett and Allen declined, so did Rondo's value to this franchise.

The evidence is growing: Rondo is no longer a good fit in Boston. Doesn't mean he has no value elsewhere; in fact, it means there's conceivably a match with another team in search of his kind of game.

Ainge can and should aggressively market him in the off-season. It's the best thing for Rondo, and the best thing for the Celtics.

See coachbo's post below yours for my explanation as to why trading Rondo would make sense and why a trade where Boston gets good return would be feasible.

I think there were a number of trades at the deadline involving the Hawks that would have made sense for Rondo.  Lou Williams and Jeff Teague straight up would have made a lot of sense if Atlanta wanted to keep Smith that would have been a good way to help entice him to stay.  A 3-way trade with Phoenix, Atlanta, and Boston where Boston essentially traded rondo, lee, terry, and bass for lou williams, teague, dudley, and beasley would have made a lot of sense for the 3 teams involved (dragic, gortat, and smith were also in the trade). 

I think this summer there will be options out there where Boston trades Rondo to a team for a lottery pick in the draft and some other pieces if there is someone Ainge really likes.  Orlando and New Orleans seem like places that might want a guy like Rondo to run their teams and they all have the salaries to make a draft day trade work, plus at least one lottery pick and/or recent lottery picks to trade.  Charlotte has Kemba Walker and 2 lottery picks, not to mention Gordon's salary.  I think a reasonable trade would be Gordon, Walker, and the Blazers pick for Rondo and Sullinger (or something like that). 

It is just too bad the Thunder don't have a need for Rondo as they have a lot of draft picks coming their way as a result of the Harden trade.

There will be plenty of trades out there that make sense for the acquiring team and where Boston still gets solid value back.  It won't be Rondo the player value, but it won't be chump change either.

@Coachbo Firstly, I completely understand your point, I just happen to disagree entirely. But I realize that some of the people here weren't arguing thee quality of Rondo, but rather his fit/role on this team. My point was more for those arguing that his he was overhyped and not a great point guard (although in hindsight I'd be better off leaving those people to argue amongst themselves).

No Rondo isn't surrounded by big time scorers, but he is surrounded by several quality scorers whose ability he can maximize by facilitating their individual strengths. As the team is currently constructed, they have very good pieces but few players who are going to be consistently outstanding. Rondo's particular skill set fits well with that team dynamic because he can help guys maximize their potential by getting the ball to them in the right spots and making it easier for them to succeed with the tools they have, but he can also still take over a game on his own when no one else is stepping up.

Yes he would benefit from playing with a team that has "big-time scorers", but those guys are dubbed big-time scorers because they have the ability to score without needing a guy like Rondo to get them the ball in the right spots. They can do it anywhere, any time, they just have that talent. Where Rondo can truly add value is by putting guys that don't have that kind of ability in the best position to succeed. Thats what we have seen from him in the past.

But hey, thats just my opnion I can't say that he wouldn't be better off on a team with elite scorers because we haven't seen him play with guys like that (caveat: early on in the first year/2 of the big 3 era he did have that talent around him but he wasn't running the show like he does now). What I can say is that we've seen him have tremendous success in the past with a similar cast of characters as the ones presently on the roster and I think so many things were going poorly early on this season that its unfair to characterize his fit with this team based on their early play. I think most everyone (except Bass) has improved as time has gone on.

@Celtics18 Personally i don't think I'd make any of those trades you've suggested, certainly not the Hawks trade or the one that involves the Suns as well, although I'll admit I would discuss Eric Gordon and a lottery pick and see what might work there. And I don't doubt that there would be several trades that could bring back decent value. But thats obviously because I have a very different view of Rondo's fit with the Celtics than you and Coachbo, so I probably value his ability here more than the two of you would given that you both see his style being more suited for another team.

As I said above I see Rondo as a guy who can make a team like the Celtics, that lacks the star power and fire power to take on the likes of the Heat and the Thunder, have the ability to win on any given night because of what he can do to help other guys play to their best. So while yes we could potentially move him for some quality pieces that would help us play in a different style that may suit our current group better, I just can't imagine giving him up for any offer that didn't blow my socks off. He has the potential to be the cornerstone for an organization for many years to come and with KG and PP certainly in the last years of their careers Rondo is going to be a guy I want to build around.

Strange.  That's not my post that you quoted.  I agree with what you have to say.
Philadelphia Seventy-Sixers  DKC General Manager

Dennis Schroeder/Ray McCallum
Tyreke Evans/Jeremy Lamb/R. Ledo
Giannis Antetokounpo/Darrell Arthur/V. Claver
Kelly Olynyk/Nerlens Noel/C. Jefferson
Brandan Wright/Timofey Mozgov/A. Nicholson