(Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate

[CelticConcourse]

I usually don't post in silly threads such as such.

But, the Celtics play great under adversity. I'll put a Q out there: can this 12-4 pace be maintained throughout a whole season? If so, waive Rondo, and lets win us some rings. I'm not taking any sides here, just wondering

Can this be maintained?

[ssspence]

The funny thing is that Danny Ainge just comes out and laughs when he sees people saying the Celtics are better without Rondo than with him. Its Ainge that states the better overall team play has to do more with certain players getting acclimated and healthy and out of slumps and into their roles than it does Rondo not being there.

Of course he does. What else could be possibly do or say?

Can't imagine anyone in the league buys it. (Most) NBA GMs are not idiots --  they've presumably noticed that the Cs have responded incredibly positively to the guy going away.

[timobusa]

While you are right that the celtics are 20-23 with rondo and 12-4 without him.

We're also 2007-08 NBA Champions, 5 straight Atlantic Division Champions, 6 minutes away from another title in 2010, 4 minutes away from another finals appearance 2012 with Rondo.

So yes I guess we are better without Rondo.....

SMH

[nickagneta]

Playoff series won by Celtics since 2007-08 with Rondo: 11

Playoff series won by Celtics since 2007-08 without Rondo:0

I guess the real important stat, the one above, will really tell whether Rondo is important to this team.

[celtics2]

The Celtics have renewed their vigor for wins. One can tell by Pierce and Kg. They are happy campers. The Philly game showed athleticism the likes of what the Celts haven't had in a long time. It means we can at least win the games we should win. I do diss Doc a lot but he is up for these games also. The Truth is still the Heart of the Team but he has an interesting cast of characters behind him. All Celtic fans want is effort. If that is practiced the wins will be there.

[celtics2]

Rondo does fit this type of system. We have seen it plenty of times, particularly in his early career. Have no clue why they went away from it, particularly as he's been improving his off-the-ball skills, especially his shooting.

We saw it a lot in pre-season too, then regular season started and all we had been seeing from this team went to the trash can for no apparent reason.
[/quote]

Rondo just isn't a spark plug. There aren't that many around the League. Bradley is probably one of if not the best on the ball defender in the League. He is a bottle of that 4 hr energizer stuff. That can't be taught. Usually one can be found in the 6th roster spot and they give off extra spurts of liveliness whereas Bradley does it as a starter and is not limited to defense. It's getting contagious.

[erisred]

Our defense being better had alot to do with bradley AND Lee replacing rondo in the starting lineup.

I agree.  However, this doesn't mean that Rondo can't play excellent defense, just that he wasn'tplaying excellent defense. Rondo was playing too many minutes, for one thing, but he also appeared to be playing less hard on defense (resting maybe) than in the past...going for more "blow-by steals" rather than playing straight up on his man, for example. Maybe he was hurting longer than we knew, maybe he was just getting tired, but maybe he was just being a little lazy.

Without Rondo's passing and ball handling everyone had to step up their game. Well, sure! When 8 very good players all start playing harder because they *had* to, and some of them coming out of slumps and recovering from injuries, I can see where it might make up for one great player being out.

Bottom line is, though, the Celtics are not better without Rondo. They are playing better now even without Rondo. Those are two different things.

[celtics2]

While you are right that the celtics are 20-23 with rondo and 12-4 without him.

We're also 2007-08 NBA Champions, 5 straight Atlantic Division Champions, 6 minutes away from another title in 2010, 4 minutes away from another finals appearance 2012 with Rondo.

So yes I guess we are better without Rondo.....

SMH

The past speaks for itself. It's the Present that counts. What have you done for me lately. Can't live on past laurels. No one is bigger than the Team.

[erisred]

And this coincided more with Avery Bradley coming back than Rondo being injured.

Maybe, but on the balance, a Bradley + Lee backcourt is miles ahead in both size and defensive intensity than a Rondo + Bradley backcourt. Make of this what you will.

I wouldn't say miles at all but it is better and more fundamentally sound on defense.  Rondo and Bradley worked well together especially because Rondo could get steals off of Bradley's ball pressure but I do agree that Lee and Bradley is a better defensive backcourt overall and you don't have to give up size.

If you look at the team's defensive numbers with Bradley vs without it's clear what kind of impact he has had.

By "miles ahead" I really mean two things:

(1) We can have a PG-sized guard covering PGs and a SG-sized guard covering SGs.

(2) No more awkward cross-matching on offense and defense, where there's always the inherent risk you'll lose your man on the break.

Good points.  I was just saying there was some strengths with Rondo as well but I do love Lee and Bradley overall.  They are a great defensive combo and we don't give up any size.

@CourtneyLee2211
Eye is coo! Not sure how it want a and1 but oh well!Highlight of the night, JRU came to me and @avery_bradley and ask us to cool the Defense


Jru Holiday asked them both to relax on defense last night haha.

This, right here, is something I just don't get. Did Holiday expect Avery or Courtney to just say, "Sure! We'll take it easy on you old buddy!" If it'd been me, I'd have told him, "If can't take the heat go take a seat on the bench, cause it's gonna get hotter!"

[Lightskinsmurf]

Playoff series won by Celtics since 2007-08 with Rondo: 11

Playoff series won by Celtics since 2007-08 without Rondo:0

I guess the real important stat, the one above, will really tell whether Rondo is important to this team.

No matter how much we explain our stance, we still continue to get comments like this which just proves nobody is listening or paying attention. Its pretty pointless at this point to keep repeating ourselves. Nobody is going to change their mind on their stance any time soon or ever. Plus, that comment you wrote is pretty silly all on its own.

[CelticConcourse]

And this coincided more with Avery Bradley coming back than Rondo being injured.

Maybe, but on the balance, a Bradley + Lee backcourt is miles ahead in both size and defensive intensity than a Rondo + Bradley backcourt. Make of this what you will.

I wouldn't say miles at all but it is better and more fundamentally sound on defense.  Rondo and Bradley worked well together especially because Rondo could get steals off of Bradley's ball pressure but I do agree that Lee and Bradley is a better defensive backcourt overall and you don't have to give up size.

If you look at the team's defensive numbers with Bradley vs without it's clear what kind of impact he has had.

By "miles ahead" I really mean two things:

(1) We can have a PG-sized guard covering PGs and a SG-sized guard covering SGs.

(2) No more awkward cross-matching on offense and defense, where there's always the inherent risk you'll lose your man on the break.

Good points.  I was just saying there was some strengths with Rondo as well but I do love Lee and Bradley overall.  They are a great defensive combo and we don't give up any size.

@CourtneyLee2211
Eye is coo! Not sure how it want a and1 but oh well!Highlight of the night, JRU came to me and @avery_bradley and ask us to cool the Defense


Jru Holiday asked them both to relax on defense last night haha.

This, right here, is something I just don't get. Did Holiday expect Avery or Courtney to just say, "Sure! We'll take it easy on you old buddy!" If it'd been me, I'd have told him, "If can't take the heat go take a seat on the bench, cause it's gonna get hotter!"

Hahahahaha, that's funny. TP for the nugget find (snake).

[BleedGreen1989]

Playoff series won by Celtics since 2007-08 with Rondo: 11

Playoff series won by Celtics since 2007-08 without Rondo:0

I guess the real important stat, the one above, will really tell whether Rondo is important to this team.

No matter how much we explain our stance, we still continue to get comments like this which just proves nobody is listening or paying attention. Its pretty pointless at this point to keep repeating ourselves. Nobody is going to change their mind on their stance any time soon or ever. Plus, that comment you wrote is pretty silly all on its own.

How in the world is his comment a silly one? Try and argue that Rondo has NOT been our playoff MVP...go ahead

[BballTim]

So why does the Cs offense show no ill effects, and actually some improvement, since he left the line up? How do they miss him? What has the team lacked without him?

You use the phrase "fact of the matter" in your post. The fact is they haven't missed him statistically, and his absence obviously hasn't hurt their ability to win (or not lose) games.

So can you offer some basic, factual explanation of how the Celtics have been in any way adversely effected by his injury?

Just point to a high level area or catagory. Anything.

  I think you're missing my point. Aside from Rondo our top 5 scorers are Pierce, KG, Green, Terry and Bradley. Pierce is playing better than he was in January, presumably because his pinched nerve is less of a problem. Terry is playing better than he was in January because he was struggling with a knee injury for a while. Bradley's playing better because he was out for so long and had a rib injury. Green's playing better because he's healthier and more comfortable, and his shooting percentages have been increasing significantly as the season's progressed.

  So with Rondo out we've only played about 2 out of 16 games against top 10 defenses and 4 of our top 5 offensive players are playing noticeably better than they were before. Considering that we were a top 10 offense in November we should be well above that now. We're not. With the other players playing at the level they are now *with* Rondo we would be.

[BballTim]

Rondo does fit this type of system. We have seen it plenty of times, particularly in his early career. Have no clue why they went away from it, particularly as he's been improving his off-the-ball skills, especially his shooting.

We saw it a lot in pre-season too, then regular season started and all we had been seeing from this team went to the trash can for no apparent reason.

Rondo just isn't a spark plug. There aren't that many around the League. Bradley is probably one of if not the best on the ball defender in the League. He is a bottle of that 4 hr energizer stuff. That can't be taught. Usually one can be found in the 6th roster spot and they give off extra spurts of liveliness whereas Bradley does it as a starter and is not limited to defense. It's getting contagious.
[/quote]

  Yes, Rondo's never been known as a spark plug. That's why we've been hearing "Rondo is the straw that stirs the drink" and "as Rondo goes, so goes the Celtics" for years.

[Lightskinsmurf]

Playoff series won by Celtics since 2007-08 with Rondo: 11

Playoff series won by Celtics since 2007-08 without Rondo:0

I guess the real important stat, the one above, will really tell whether Rondo is important to this team.

No matter how much we explain our stance, we still continue to get comments like this which just proves nobody is listening or paying attention. Its pretty pointless at this point to keep repeating ourselves. Nobody is going to change their mind on their stance any time soon or ever. Plus, that comment you wrote is pretty silly all on its own.

How in the world is his comment a silly one? Try and argue that Rondo has NOT been our playoff MVP...go ahead

Depends what year you're talking about. Jesus, some of the arguments you guys bring up are so weak idk why I'm wasting my time. The year we actually won it all pierce was our playoff MVP and finals mvp.

His comment was silly because how many playoff series did we even play without rondo? Its not like we have alot to compare it too. Has rondo even missed a playoff game since 07-08? I can't recall. That's why its silly.