(Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate

[Lightskinsmurf]

Our offense was dying for better outside shooting for much of this year. Bottom third of the league at 33%, 37% would be top 10.

That increase alone is 2 points per game more, more when you factor we're taking 2 more per game. That's the majority of our offensive improvement right there, better 3 point shooting and more of it.

This is not the main thing. The main thing is the score. With Rondo, the team was under .500 score, fighting for the 8-spot. Without Rondo, the team is 12-4 and clearly the better team in all components. These are facts.

No they are not.

Avery Bradley's return has come with a huge improvement in our defense.  Other players have just started playing better.  Look at Jeff Green especially. There are many factors.

We are winning because of our defense right now.

Are there things to take form this streak going forward and how Rondo should integrate into the team?  Yes.  But how some people act like Rondo was literally a net negative for this team is unbelievable.

Thank you for saying that. Thank you.

Since we're using stats, lets look at Rondo's +/- when he was playing before the injury and tell me if he had a game where he had a negative score?

Here I'll put in the link for you guys to check it out yourselves.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01/gamelog/2013/

NONE! We are 20-23 when Rondo was playing because we were not hitting shots. It's that simple. While I agree that the ball is moving more fluid without him, please do not tell me that Rondo is hogging the ball. He's finding teammates and not hitting shots while he was healthy (yeah that's right I saw the games), that's not his fault...

The plus minus stat has got to be the most overrated useless stat in the history of stats.

[Yoki_IsTheName]

Our offense was dying for better outside shooting for much of this year. Bottom third of the league at 33%, 37% would be top 10.

That increase alone is 2 points per game more, more when you factor we're taking 2 more per game. That's the majority of our offensive improvement right there, better 3 point shooting and more of it.

This is not the main thing. The main thing is the score. With Rondo, the team was under .500 score, fighting for the 8-spot. Without Rondo, the team is 12-4 and clearly the better team in all components. These are facts.

No they are not.

Avery Bradley's return has come with a huge improvement in our defense.  Other players have just started playing better.  Look at Jeff Green especially. There are many factors.

We are winning because of our defense right now.

Are there things to take form this streak going forward and how Rondo should integrate into the team?  Yes.  But how some people act like Rondo was literally a net negative for this team is unbelievable.

Thank you for saying that. Thank you.

Since we're using stats, lets look at Rondo's +/- when he was playing before the injury and tell me if he had a game where he had a negative score?

Here I'll put in the link for you guys to check it out yourselves.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01/gamelog/2013/

NONE! We are 20-23 when Rondo was playing because we were not hitting shots. It's that simple. While I agree that the ball is moving more fluid without him, please do not tell me that Rondo is hogging the ball. He's finding teammates and not hitting shots while he was healthy (yeah that's right I saw the games), that's not his fault...

The plus minus stat has got to be the most overrated useless stat in the history of stats.

Call it as you will.

All I know is it says that Rondo, when playing, is not producing negative production to the team, and on some nights is the most productive player/minutes he play.

I guess PER is a useless stat to define a players rating as well, since it kind of does the same thing, instead the PER is on an individual scale.

[Lightskinsmurf]

Its funny I came into this thread saying I wasn't going to get sucked into the nonsense again. It just always gets me tho, every time.

[CelticConcourse]

Don't say this is another, NO RONDO thread.

Those TNT people also agree Rondo is a super good player!

[Lightskinsmurf]

Don't say this is another, NO RONDO thread.

Those TNT people also agree Rondo is a super good player!

Lol, I think everybody agrees rondo is a good player.

[Moranis]

Stats are great but have to be taken in context.

1. Rondo has hardly played with the best defensive player in the league this year. When Avery Bradley was added to last year's starting team, they became the best defensive team since the 2007-08 Celtics. Bradley was not playing with Rondo for most of that pre-injury record. Bradley might be playing his best ball as a Celtic right now.

2. People mention movement when they mention the difference in the offense pre- and post Rondo's injury. Think about that for a moment. If players were getting off on fast breaks with Rondo and moving around more in the half court when Rondo was around, do you think the Celtics record would have been what it was prior to his injury?

3. The Celtics have had starts of seasons when they are unbeatable and they have had starts when they sputtered along until something clicked in they play great. With Pierce and Terry fighting through nagging injuries, with no Bradley, with Green and Wilcox overcoming heart surgery operations and with Lee, Green, Terry, Barbosa, Wilcox, Darko, and the rookies all trying to figure out their roles, this wasn't going to be a year where they started off unbeatable.

Yes, I think a definite line of demarcation can be drawn around the time Rondo got injured(though I think around Bradley's return would be better) where this team's performance changed and several players suddenly saw the quality of their effort, their performance, and their knowledge of what they were doing increase and make the team as a whole play like the contender everyone thought it was going to be before the season started.

Unfortunately regular season wins and winning 4 games out of seven games to the same team as they game plan your players much more individually are two different things. We couldn't beat Miami without Bradley last year, We certainly aren't beating them without Rondo, Sully and Barbosa.

I recall a number of early games in the season where someone would run out on a break and Rondo wouldn't get them ball but would rather bring it up himself.  A player only runs out so many times before he determines it is a wasted effort and doesn't do it.  when Rondo was on the team there wasn't nearly the ball movement.  It was about Rondo dribbling around till someone got open and Rondo could get a pass in an assist situation.  Without Rondo, the ball just moves around a lot more and when someone is open the shot comes.  I certainly think Rondo could fit fine in that type of system, but he just hasn't play that way.  If he can't adapt he needs to be traded.

And seriously what does it say that the team can lose its best player and add its 5th best player and get better on both ends of the floor.  That is much more a knock on Rondo than a positive to Bradley.

But our offense isn't much different.  You say it's better but it's basically the same.

Individual players are just shooting better or in Green's case especially, playing better.

The defense has improved but that is a credit to Avery Bradley.

I contend they are shooting better because of the ball movement.  They are getting better shots in situations that are more suited for their skill sets.

And again, how can you lose your best player a guy who is a multiple time all league defender and improve your defense.  That shouldn't happen and is a huge knock on Rondo.

[Snakehead]

Stats are great but have to be taken in context.

1. Rondo has hardly played with the best defensive player in the league this year. When Avery Bradley was added to last year's starting team, they became the best defensive team since the 2007-08 Celtics. Bradley was not playing with Rondo for most of that pre-injury record. Bradley might be playing his best ball as a Celtic right now.

2. People mention movement when they mention the difference in the offense pre- and post Rondo's injury. Think about that for a moment. If players were getting off on fast breaks with Rondo and moving around more in the half court when Rondo was around, do you think the Celtics record would have been what it was prior to his injury?

3. The Celtics have had starts of seasons when they are unbeatable and they have had starts when they sputtered along until something clicked in they play great. With Pierce and Terry fighting through nagging injuries, with no Bradley, with Green and Wilcox overcoming heart surgery operations and with Lee, Green, Terry, Barbosa, Wilcox, Darko, and the rookies all trying to figure out their roles, this wasn't going to be a year where they started off unbeatable.

Yes, I think a definite line of demarcation can be drawn around the time Rondo got injured(though I think around Bradley's return would be better) where this team's performance changed and several players suddenly saw the quality of their effort, their performance, and their knowledge of what they were doing increase and make the team as a whole play like the contender everyone thought it was going to be before the season started.

Unfortunately regular season wins and winning 4 games out of seven games to the same team as they game plan your players much more individually are two different things. We couldn't beat Miami without Bradley last year, We certainly aren't beating them without Rondo, Sully and Barbosa.

I recall a number of early games in the season where someone would run out on a break and Rondo wouldn't get them ball but would rather bring it up himself.  A player only runs out so many times before he determines it is a wasted effort and doesn't do it.  when Rondo was on the team there wasn't nearly the ball movement.  It was about Rondo dribbling around till someone got open and Rondo could get a pass in an assist situation.  Without Rondo, the ball just moves around a lot more and when someone is open the shot comes.  I certainly think Rondo could fit fine in that type of system, but he just hasn't play that way.  If he can't adapt he needs to be traded.

And seriously what does it say that the team can lose its best player and add its 5th best player and get better on both ends of the floor.  That is much more a knock on Rondo than a positive to Bradley.

But our offense isn't much different.  You say it's better but it's basically the same.

Individual players are just shooting better or in Green's case especially, playing better.

The defense has improved but that is a credit to Avery Bradley.

I contend they are shooting better because of the ball movement.  They are getting better shots in situations that are more suited for their skill sets.

And again, how can you lose your best player a guy who is a multiple time all league defender and improve your defense.  That shouldn't happen and is a huge knock on Rondo.

I do like our ball movement but it hasn't resulted in much different percentages overall as a team.

And as far as improvements, if you look at Green for example who has improved a huge amount as the season has gone on, I don't see how Rondo affected him negatively.  He assisted a lot of his baskets before.  Lee and Avery for example are both shooting better from range.  They were getting open looks with Rondo, there is no difference but them making the shots.

And Bradley is the best guard defender in the NBA and Lee is right up there with him in the top few.  I think both are better than Rondo but that isn't a knock, they are both great.  All three are top notch.

Our defense was trending up when Rondo was playing with Avery too.

As I've said before, I think there is something to take from this streak, but the team was trending upward before and that was from defense.  With Rondo we could be doing much better now on offense for all we know.  Going forward, I would love to see the team play more freely and Rondo up his scoring playing off the ball.

[Fafnir]

Our offense was dying for better outside shooting for much of this year. Bottom third of the league at 33%, 37% would be top 10.

That increase alone is 2 points per game more, more when you factor we're taking 2 more per game. That's the majority of our offensive improvement right there, better 3 point shooting and more of it.

This is not the main thing. The main thing is the score. With Rondo, the team was under .500 score, fighting for the 8-spot. Without Rondo, the team is 12-4 and clearly the better team in all components. These are facts.

You get the score by scoring points and getting stops in games. Making more three point shots helps you score more.

They're not any better defensively, the team's defensive improvment occurred before Rondo's injury. Offensively they're better, and I was talking about "why" they are better. The why's matter.

[LarBrd33]

This roster is guard heavy.  It's been guard heavy since the beginning of the season.   Rondo, Bradley, Lee, Barbosa, Terry... all of those guys are quality talent.  Rondo gets about 43 minutes a game come playoff time... which left a total of 53 minutes total for the other 4 guards. 

If I were to get into Ainge's head...

Plan A was to trade a couple guards, a couple draft picks and Bass for an immediate big man upgrade... Al Jefferson, Josh Smith, Cousins etc. 

Plan B was probably to trade Rondo for a big and let the rest of the guards split the time. 


The injury just resolved a major roster conflict... freed up minutes for our quality guards to step up and have more defined roles (Barbosa now being swapped out for Crawford)... In addition, it made the ball flow through our best offensive weapon, Paul Pierce, who has been remarkable since Rondo went out... someone post his stats since Rondo went out... he's upped his assists and rebounds... it's a role Pierce had with the Celtics up until late 2009 and he's proving he's still able to do it.    It also allowed Jeff Green to have a more defined role and use his talents appropriately.  He's been outstanding. 

All of this stuff contributed to our team's improvement.  But there were three other effects of Rondo going down.  #1 - it allowed guys to share the ball and have our offense be less predictable.  We have multiple guys who can create and now they are getting the opportunity to do just that.  #2 - Rondo's somewhat of a liability without the ball, because teams don't respect his shot.  That means that when Rondo didn't have the ball, it put more defensive pressure on everyone else, because Rondo's man would slack off.  We now have more offensive weapons on the floor at the same time.  #3 - Bradley and Lee are clearly our best defensive guards and now they are starting together.  More importantly, it moves point-guard sized Bradley to point guard.  He's not a shooting guard.  He's best used as a stopper for other point-guard sized scorers.  A beautiful example of that was against Steph Curry and the Warriors... I think we would have had Bradley on Klay Thompson and Rondo guarding Curry ... and I'm not sure it would have worked as well.  Thompson has 5 inches and 25 pounds on Bradley... I much prefer seeing Lee guard him and allowing our best defensive point guard play the point guard position.

All of the above contributes to us clearly playing better without Rondo.  BUt that doesn't mean Rondo is a bad player. Rondo is excellent.  This team is just built to withstand losing him in a big way.   

[SHAQATTACK]

Rondo is a talented star, rather see his talents traded for quality impact big to help KG.  And then split the guard duties between Lee , AB, JET, exc

If Rondo continues his lazy ways of walking the ball up court next year , I'll lose my mind , so to keep my sanity , I would just rather let some other team pull their hair out watching Rondo pound the ball wasting time and playing patsy defense .

it maybe time to say good bye to Rondo.

[Celtics18]

Stats are great but have to be taken in context.

1. Rondo has hardly played with the best defensive player in the league this year. When Avery Bradley was added to last year's starting team, they became the best defensive team since the 2007-08 Celtics. Bradley was not playing with Rondo for most of that pre-injury record. Bradley might be playing his best ball as a Celtic right now.

2. People mention movement when they mention the difference in the offense pre- and post Rondo's injury. Think about that for a moment. If players were getting off on fast breaks with Rondo and moving around more in the half court when Rondo was around, do you think the Celtics record would have been what it was prior to his injury?

3. The Celtics have had starts of seasons when they are unbeatable and they have had starts when they sputtered along until something clicked in they play great. With Pierce and Terry fighting through nagging injuries, with no Bradley, with Green and Wilcox overcoming heart surgery operations and with Lee, Green, Terry, Barbosa, Wilcox, Darko, and the rookies all trying to figure out their roles, this wasn't going to be a year where they started off unbeatable.

Yes, I think a definite line of demarcation can be drawn around the time Rondo got injured(though I think around Bradley's return would be better) where this team's performance changed and several players suddenly saw the quality of their effort, their performance, and their knowledge of what they were doing increase and make the team as a whole play like the contender everyone thought it was going to be before the season started.

Unfortunately regular season wins and winning 4 games out of seven games to the same team as they game plan your players much more individually are two different things. We couldn't beat Miami without Bradley last year, We certainly aren't beating them without Rondo, Sully and Barbosa.

I recall a number of early games in the season where someone would run out on a break and Rondo wouldn't get them ball but would rather bring it up himself.  A player only runs out so many times before he determines it is a wasted effort and doesn't do it.  when Rondo was on the team there wasn't nearly the ball movement.  It was about Rondo dribbling around till someone got open and Rondo could get a pass in an assist situation.  Without Rondo, the ball just moves around a lot more and when someone is open the shot comes.  I certainly think Rondo could fit fine in that type of system, but he just hasn't play that way.  If he can't adapt he needs to be traded.

And seriously what does it say that the team can lose its best player and add its 5th best player and get better on both ends of the floor.  That is much more a knock on Rondo than a positive to Bradley.

But our offense isn't much different.  You say it's better but it's basically the same.

Individual players are just shooting better or in Green's case especially, playing better.

The defense has improved but that is a credit to Avery Bradley.

I contend they are shooting better because of the ball movement.  They are getting better shots in situations that are more suited for their skill sets.

And again, how can you lose your best player a guy who is a multiple time all league defender and improve your defense.  That shouldn't happen and is a huge knock on Rondo.

It's been pointed out to you a few times already, but your second paragraph is absolutely false.  Our defense improved with the return of Avery Bradley, but it has not improved more since Rondo got injured. 

According to the numbers at Basketball reference, our Defensive Rating (estimated points per 100 possessions) is at 102.2 for the season. 

In the twelve games that Rondo and Bradley started together, the team's Defensive Rating was 100.0

In the sixteen games since Rondo has been injured, the team's Defensive Rating has been at 100.0

Based on those numbers, it would appear that our defensive improvement is absolutely a positive statement on Avery Bradley's defense and not a knock on Rondo's. 

[BballTim]

Stats are great but have to be taken in context.

1. Rondo has hardly played with the best defensive player in the league this year. When Avery Bradley was added to last year's starting team, they became the best defensive team since the 2007-08 Celtics. Bradley was not playing with Rondo for most of that pre-injury record. Bradley might be playing his best ball as a Celtic right now.

2. People mention movement when they mention the difference in the offense pre- and post Rondo's injury. Think about that for a moment. If players were getting off on fast breaks with Rondo and moving around more in the half court when Rondo was around, do you think the Celtics record would have been what it was prior to his injury?

3. The Celtics have had starts of seasons when they are unbeatable and they have had starts when they sputtered along until something clicked in they play great. With Pierce and Terry fighting through nagging injuries, with no Bradley, with Green and Wilcox overcoming heart surgery operations and with Lee, Green, Terry, Barbosa, Wilcox, Darko, and the rookies all trying to figure out their roles, this wasn't going to be a year where they started off unbeatable.

Yes, I think a definite line of demarcation can be drawn around the time Rondo got injured(though I think around Bradley's return would be better) where this team's performance changed and several players suddenly saw the quality of their effort, their performance, and their knowledge of what they were doing increase and make the team as a whole play like the contender everyone thought it was going to be before the season started.

Unfortunately regular season wins and winning 4 games out of seven games to the same team as they game plan your players much more individually are two different things. We couldn't beat Miami without Bradley last year, We certainly aren't beating them without Rondo, Sully and Barbosa.

I recall a number of early games in the season where someone would run out on a break and Rondo wouldn't get them ball but would rather bring it up himself.

  That rarely if ever happens. People are remembering more of what they read on the board than what happened on the court.

[Moranis]

Stats are great but have to be taken in context.

1. Rondo has hardly played with the best defensive player in the league this year. When Avery Bradley was added to last year's starting team, they became the best defensive team since the 2007-08 Celtics. Bradley was not playing with Rondo for most of that pre-injury record. Bradley might be playing his best ball as a Celtic right now.

2. People mention movement when they mention the difference in the offense pre- and post Rondo's injury. Think about that for a moment. If players were getting off on fast breaks with Rondo and moving around more in the half court when Rondo was around, do you think the Celtics record would have been what it was prior to his injury?

3. The Celtics have had starts of seasons when they are unbeatable and they have had starts when they sputtered along until something clicked in they play great. With Pierce and Terry fighting through nagging injuries, with no Bradley, with Green and Wilcox overcoming heart surgery operations and with Lee, Green, Terry, Barbosa, Wilcox, Darko, and the rookies all trying to figure out their roles, this wasn't going to be a year where they started off unbeatable.

Yes, I think a definite line of demarcation can be drawn around the time Rondo got injured(though I think around Bradley's return would be better) where this team's performance changed and several players suddenly saw the quality of their effort, their performance, and their knowledge of what they were doing increase and make the team as a whole play like the contender everyone thought it was going to be before the season started.

Unfortunately regular season wins and winning 4 games out of seven games to the same team as they game plan your players much more individually are two different things. We couldn't beat Miami without Bradley last year, We certainly aren't beating them without Rondo, Sully and Barbosa.

I recall a number of early games in the season where someone would run out on a break and Rondo wouldn't get them ball but would rather bring it up himself.  A player only runs out so many times before he determines it is a wasted effort and doesn't do it.  when Rondo was on the team there wasn't nearly the ball movement.  It was about Rondo dribbling around till someone got open and Rondo could get a pass in an assist situation.  Without Rondo, the ball just moves around a lot more and when someone is open the shot comes.  I certainly think Rondo could fit fine in that type of system, but he just hasn't play that way.  If he can't adapt he needs to be traded.

And seriously what does it say that the team can lose its best player and add its 5th best player and get better on both ends of the floor.  That is much more a knock on Rondo than a positive to Bradley.

But our offense isn't much different.  You say it's better but it's basically the same.

Individual players are just shooting better or in Green's case especially, playing better.

The defense has improved but that is a credit to Avery Bradley.

I contend they are shooting better because of the ball movement.  They are getting better shots in situations that are more suited for their skill sets.

And again, how can you lose your best player a guy who is a multiple time all league defender and improve your defense.  That shouldn't happen and is a huge knock on Rondo.

It's been pointed out to you a few times already, but your second paragraph is absolutely false.  Our defense improved with the return of Avery Bradley, but it has not improved more since Rondo got injured. 

According to the numbers at Basketball reference, our Defensive Rating (estimated points per 100 possessions) is at 102.2 for the season. 

In the twelve games that Rondo and Bradley started together, the team's Defensive Rating was 100.0

In the sixteen games since Rondo has been injured, the team's Defensive Rating has been at 100.0

Based on those numbers, it would appear that our defensive improvement is absolutely a positive statement on Avery Bradley's defense and not a knock on Rondo's.

How can you lose a 1st team league defender and not get worse, though?  I mean seriously if it doesn't matter if Rondo plays on either end of the floor, then why shouldn't Boston trade him?  The stats show he has absolutely no positive impact on Boston's offense or its defense.  Clearly that shows we should just trade him and move on.

[ssspence]

Since Rondo's ACL injury the C's are:

Shooting .6% better on 2 point shots
Shooting 3.5% better on 3 point shots
Taking a higher ratio of 3s to 2s.
Also turning it over slightly less as a team.
Our FTAs to FGAs is essentially the same
Our FT% is essentially the same.
Our pace has increased roughly 1 possession per game.

Edit:
Our rebounding on both ends declined. (That's Sullinger more than Rondo, though Rondo going out hurts that aspect too)

Last I checked, the team's APG was also flat if not a little improved. To me that explains in part why the Cs have garnered a better record without him thus far.



 

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

Stats are great but have to be taken in context.

1. Rondo has hardly played with the best defensive player in the league this year. When Avery Bradley was added to last year's starting team, they became the best defensive team since the 2007-08 Celtics. Bradley was not playing with Rondo for most of that pre-injury record. Bradley might be playing his best ball as a Celtic right now.

2. People mention movement when they mention the difference in the offense pre- and post Rondo's injury. Think about that for a moment. If players were getting off on fast breaks with Rondo and moving around more in the half court when Rondo was around, do you think the Celtics record would have been what it was prior to his injury?

3. The Celtics have had starts of seasons when they are unbeatable and they have had starts when they sputtered along until something clicked in they play great. With Pierce and Terry fighting through nagging injuries, with no Bradley, with Green and Wilcox overcoming heart surgery operations and with Lee, Green, Terry, Barbosa, Wilcox, Darko, and the rookies all trying to figure out their roles, this wasn't going to be a year where they started off unbeatable.

Yes, I think a definite line of demarcation can be drawn around the time Rondo got injured(though I think around Bradley's return would be better) where this team's performance changed and several players suddenly saw the quality of their effort, their performance, and their knowledge of what they were doing increase and make the team as a whole play like the contender everyone thought it was going to be before the season started.

Unfortunately regular season wins and winning 4 games out of seven games to the same team as they game plan your players much more individually are two different things. We couldn't beat Miami without Bradley last year, We certainly aren't beating them without Rondo, Sully and Barbosa.

well then that settles it. let's just foreit the rest of the season. no reason to play anymore.