(Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate

[Lightskinsmurf]

How come no one on here ever points out the Celtics record with and with out Jared Sullinger?  It's only one game different then their record with and without Rondo but no one blames Sully for the Celtics problems.  I am not saying he was a problem I'm just pointing out how the argument against Rondo works both ways.  If you can make the argument based on record for Rondo then the Celtics really need to trade Sully as soon as he's healthy because he's been holding them back.

Great point.

I was saying the same thing about people not considering how much better we were with Bradley on defense.

There has been too much turmoil this season to draw clear cut statements like this.

Its not a great point at all really. If you watch the games you could clearly see sully was helping our team a great deal with his rebounding and lack of being like bass. Rondo on the other hand, he was hurting the team. The ball is always in his hands so unless he plays great the team suffers. Plus his defense made me ill.

[Snakehead]

How come no one on here ever points out the Celtics record with and with out Jared Sullinger?  It's only one game different then their record with and without Rondo but no one blames Sully for the Celtics problems.  I am not saying he was a problem I'm just pointing out how the argument against Rondo works both ways.  If you can make the argument based on record for Rondo then the Celtics really need to trade Sully as soon as he's healthy because he's been holding them back.

Great point.

I was saying the same thing about people not considering how much better we were with Bradley on defense.

There has been too much turmoil this season to draw clear cut statements like this.

Its not a great point at all really. If you watch the games you could clearly see sully was helping our team a great deal with his rebounding and lack of being like bass. Rondo on the other hand, he was hurting the team. The ball is always in his hands so unless he plays great the team suffers. Plus his defense made me ill.

This post is laughable.  You have some giant battle axe to grind and it's tiring to read.

[Lightskinsmurf]

How come no one on here ever points out the Celtics record with and with out Jared Sullinger?  It's only one game different then their record with and without Rondo but no one blames Sully for the Celtics problems.  I am not saying he was a problem I'm just pointing out how the argument against Rondo works both ways.  If you can make the argument based on record for Rondo then the Celtics really need to trade Sully as soon as he's healthy because he's been holding them back.

Great point.

I was saying the same thing about people not considering how much better we were with Bradley on defense.

There has been too much turmoil this season to draw clear cut statements like this.

Its not a great point at all really. If you watch the games you could clearly see sully was helping our team a great deal with his rebounding and lack of being like bass. Rondo on the other hand, he was hurting the team. The ball is always in his hands so unless he plays great the team suffers. Plus his defense made me ill.

This post is laughable.  You have some giant battle axe to grind and it's getting tired to read.

Translation: "I have no legit counter point so Ill just insult your post and move on" Nothing I said was false.

[Snakehead]

How come no one on here ever points out the Celtics record with and with out Jared Sullinger?  It's only one game different then their record with and without Rondo but no one blames Sully for the Celtics problems.  I am not saying he was a problem I'm just pointing out how the argument against Rondo works both ways.  If you can make the argument based on record for Rondo then the Celtics really need to trade Sully as soon as he's healthy because he's been holding them back.

Great point.

I was saying the same thing about people not considering how much better we were with Bradley on defense.

There has been too much turmoil this season to draw clear cut statements like this.

Its not a great point at all really. If you watch the games you could clearly see sully was helping our team a great deal with his rebounding and lack of being like bass. Rondo on the other hand, he was hurting the team. The ball is always in his hands so unless he plays great the team suffers. Plus his defense made me ill.

This post is laughable.  You have some giant battle axe to grind and it's getting tired to read.

Translation: "I have no legit counter point so Ill just insult your post and move on" Nothing I said was false.

I've made points throughout this forum and in this very thread.  Go look them all up.

It's funny you say this responding to a comment made by another poster which says "Why don't we think Sullinger made our team worse?" which you just ignore.  So if you want to ignore the record with Sullinger, then we'll ignore Rondo's record.  So what are your points then?  I'd love to hear them.

We've already seen stats that our percentages aren't much different shooting, our pace is about the same, our fast break points are about the same.

Our defense has been better since Avery came back, he is the cause of that, and that is the strength of our team and the catalyst for our turn around.

Your point is just "Sullinger clearly made us better, Rondo clearly worse" LOL.  Wow great points.  It's funny guys like KG and Pierce and Doc don't agree with them.  They must all be idiots.

[nickagneta]

Stats are great but have to be taken in context.

1. Rondo has hardly played with the best defensive player in the league this year. When Avery Bradley was added to last year's starting team, they became the best defensive team since the 2007-08 Celtics. Bradley was not playing with Rondo for most of that pre-injury record. Bradley might be playing his best ball as a Celtic right now.

2. People mention movement when they mention the difference in the offense pre- and post Rondo's injury. Think about that for a moment. If players were getting off on fast breaks with Rondo and moving around more in the half court when Rondo was around, do you think the Celtics record would have been what it was prior to his injury?

3. The Celtics have had starts of seasons when they are unbeatable and they have had starts when they sputtered along until something clicked in they play great. With Pierce and Terry fighting through nagging injuries, with no Bradley, with Green and Wilcox overcoming heart surgery operations and with Lee, Green, Terry, Barbosa, Wilcox, Darko, and the rookies all trying to figure out their roles, this wasn't going to be a year where they started off unbeatable.

Yes, I think a definite line of demarcation can be drawn around the time Rondo got injured(though I think around Bradley's return would be better) where this team's performance changed and several players suddenly saw the quality of their effort, their performance, and their knowledge of what they were doing increase and make the team as a whole play like the contender everyone thought it was going to be before the season started.

Unfortunately regular season wins and winning 4 games out of seven games to the same team as they game plan your players much more individually are two different things. We couldn't beat Miami without Bradley last year, We certainly aren't beating them without Rondo, Sully and Barbosa.

[Lightskinsmurf]

How come no one on here ever points out the Celtics record with and with out Jared Sullinger?  It's only one game different then their record with and without Rondo but no one blames Sully for the Celtics problems.  I am not saying he was a problem I'm just pointing out how the argument against Rondo works both ways.  If you can make the argument based on record for Rondo then the Celtics really need to trade Sully as soon as he's healthy because he's been holding them back.

Great point.

I was saying the same thing about people not considering how much better we were with Bradley on defense.

There has been too much turmoil this season to draw clear cut statements like this.

Its not a great point at all really. If you watch the games you could clearly see sully was helping our team a great deal with his rebounding and lack of being like bass. Rondo on the other hand, he was hurting the team. The ball is always in his hands so unless he plays great the team suffers. Plus his defense made me ill.

This post is laughable.  You have some giant battle axe to grind and it's getting tired to read.

Translation: "I have no legit counter point so Ill just insult your post and move on" Nothing I said was false.

I've made points throughout this forum and in this very thread.  Go look them all up.

It's funny you say this responding to a comment made by another poster which says "Why don't we think Sullinger made our team worse?" which you just ignore.  So if you want to ignore the record with Sullinger, then we'll ignore Rondo's record.  So what are your points then?  I'd love to hear them.

We've already seen stats that our percentages aren't much different shooting, our pace is about the same, our fast break points are about the same.

Your point is just "Sullinger clearly made us better, Rondo clearly worse" LOL.  Wow great points.  It's funny guys like KG and Pierce and Doc don't agree with them.  They must all be idiots.

I didn't ignore it. I said sully made us a better rebounding team and is better than bass. Do you deny this? I said it was quite obvious just by watching the games that sully was not the problem.

You cannot say the same for rondo. "Its funny guys like KG and pierce and doc don't agree with this" Yeah, because if they did they would tell the media all about it.

[Snakehead]

How come no one on here ever points out the Celtics record with and with out Jared Sullinger?  It's only one game different then their record with and without Rondo but no one blames Sully for the Celtics problems.  I am not saying he was a problem I'm just pointing out how the argument against Rondo works both ways.  If you can make the argument based on record for Rondo then the Celtics really need to trade Sully as soon as he's healthy because he's been holding them back.

Great point.

I was saying the same thing about people not considering how much better we were with Bradley on defense.

There has been too much turmoil this season to draw clear cut statements like this.

Its not a great point at all really. If you watch the games you could clearly see sully was helping our team a great deal with his rebounding and lack of being like bass. Rondo on the other hand, he was hurting the team. The ball is always in his hands so unless he plays great the team suffers. Plus his defense made me ill.

This post is laughable.  You have some giant battle axe to grind and it's getting tired to read.

Translation: "I have no legit counter point so Ill just insult your post and move on" Nothing I said was false.

I've made points throughout this forum and in this very thread.  Go look them all up.

It's funny you say this responding to a comment made by another poster which says "Why don't we think Sullinger made our team worse?" which you just ignore.  So if you want to ignore the record with Sullinger, then we'll ignore Rondo's record.  So what are your points then?  I'd love to hear them.

We've already seen stats that our percentages aren't much different shooting, our pace is about the same, our fast break points are about the same.

Your point is just "Sullinger clearly made us better, Rondo clearly worse" LOL.  Wow great points.  It's funny guys like KG and Pierce and Doc don't agree with them.  They must all be idiots.

I didn't ignore it. I said sully made us a better rebounding team and is better than bass. Do you deny this? I said it was quite obvious just by watching the games that sully was not the problem.

You cannot say the same for rondo. "Its funny guys like KG and pierce and doc don't agree with this" Yeah, because if they did they would tell the media all about it.

Sullinger is obviously better than Bass and the best rebounder on our team, but you completely miss the point.  The point is there are many factors, of course you ignore that.  You just ignore my whole post here, no surprise.  Why won't you talk about Avery?

And how could I not say the same about Rondo?  He isn't a better PG than anyone else on our roster?  Is that really what you are saying here?

Rondo has done a good job tricking analysts, fans, players on his own team and others, top all time players like KG, Kobe, Magic Johnson into thinking he's a  good player when he actually ruins teams he is on.  He's pretty amazing that way, not as a basketball player.  You nailed it.

On a final note, some Oscar worthy acting from Pierce here, not shown is after when he was giddy  afterwards in the locker room that Rondo was out for the year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isGpYWyC3qI

[Yoki_IsTheName]

Our offense was dying for better outside shooting for much of this year. Bottom third of the league at 33%, 37% would be top 10.

That increase alone is 2 points per game more, more when you factor we're taking 2 more per game. That's the majority of our offensive improvement right there, better 3 point shooting and more of it.

This is not the main thing. The main thing is the score. With Rondo, the team was under .500 score, fighting for the 8-spot. Without Rondo, the team is 12-4 and clearly the better team in all components. These are facts.

No they are not.

Avery Bradley's return has come with a huge improvement in our defense.  Other players have just started playing better.  Look at Jeff Green especially. There are many factors.

We are winning because of our defense right now.

Are there things to take form this streak going forward and how Rondo should integrate into the team?  Yes.  But how some people act like Rondo was literally a net negative for this team is unbelievable.

Thank you for saying that. Thank you.

Since we're using stats, lets look at Rondo's +/- when he was playing before the injury and tell me if he had a game where he had a negative score?

Here I'll put in the link for you guys to check it out yourselves.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01/gamelog/2013/

NONE! We are 20-23 when Rondo was playing because we were not hitting shots. It's that simple. While I agree that the ball is moving more fluid without him, please do not tell me that Rondo is hogging the ball. He's finding teammates and not hitting shots while he was healthy (yeah that's right I saw the games), that's not his fault...

[Moranis]

Stats are great but have to be taken in context.

1. Rondo has hardly played with the best defensive player in the league this year. When Avery Bradley was added to last year's starting team, they became the best defensive team since the 2007-08 Celtics. Bradley was not playing with Rondo for most of that pre-injury record. Bradley might be playing his best ball as a Celtic right now.

2. People mention movement when they mention the difference in the offense pre- and post Rondo's injury. Think about that for a moment. If players were getting off on fast breaks with Rondo and moving around more in the half court when Rondo was around, do you think the Celtics record would have been what it was prior to his injury?

3. The Celtics have had starts of seasons when they are unbeatable and they have had starts when they sputtered along until something clicked in they play great. With Pierce and Terry fighting through nagging injuries, with no Bradley, with Green and Wilcox overcoming heart surgery operations and with Lee, Green, Terry, Barbosa, Wilcox, Darko, and the rookies all trying to figure out their roles, this wasn't going to be a year where they started off unbeatable.

Yes, I think a definite line of demarcation can be drawn around the time Rondo got injured(though I think around Bradley's return would be better) where this team's performance changed and several players suddenly saw the quality of their effort, their performance, and their knowledge of what they were doing increase and make the team as a whole play like the contender everyone thought it was going to be before the season started.

Unfortunately regular season wins and winning 4 games out of seven games to the same team as they game plan your players much more individually are two different things. We couldn't beat Miami without Bradley last year, We certainly aren't beating them without Rondo, Sully and Barbosa.

I recall a number of early games in the season where someone would run out on a break and Rondo wouldn't get them ball but would rather bring it up himself.  A player only runs out so many times before he determines it is a wasted effort and doesn't do it.  when Rondo was on the team there wasn't nearly the ball movement.  It was about Rondo dribbling around till someone got open and Rondo could get a pass in an assist situation.  Without Rondo, the ball just moves around a lot more and when someone is open the shot comes.  I certainly think Rondo could fit fine in that type of system, but he just hasn't play that way.  If he can't adapt he needs to be traded.

And seriously what does it say that the team can lose its best player and add its 5th best player and get better on both ends of the floor.  That is much more a knock on Rondo than a positive to Bradley. 

[pearljammer10]

How come no one on here ever points out the Celtics record with and with out Jared Sullinger?  It's only one game different then their record with and without Rondo but no one blames Sully for the Celtics problems.  I am not saying he was a problem I'm just pointing out how the argument against Rondo works both ways.  If you can make the argument based on record for Rondo then the Celtics really need to trade Sully as soon as he's healthy because he's been holding them back.

Great point.

I was saying the same thing about people not considering how much better we were with Bradley on defense.

There has been too much turmoil this season to draw clear cut statements like this.

Its not a great point at all really. If you watch the games you could clearly see sully was helping our team a great deal with his rebounding and lack of being like bass. Rondo on the other hand, he was hurting the team. The ball is always in his hands so unless he plays great the team suffers. Plus his defense made me ill.

This post is laughable.  You have some giant battle axe to grind and it's getting tired to read.

Translation: "I have no legit counter point so Ill just insult your post and move on" Nothing I said was false.

I've made points throughout this forum and in this very thread.  Go look them all up.

It's funny you say this responding to a comment made by another poster which says "Why don't we think Sullinger made our team worse?" which you just ignore.  So if you want to ignore the record with Sullinger, then we'll ignore Rondo's record.  So what are your points then?  I'd love to hear them.

We've already seen stats that our percentages aren't much different shooting, our pace is about the same, our fast break points are about the same.

Your point is just "Sullinger clearly made us better, Rondo clearly worse" LOL.  Wow great points.  It's funny guys like KG and Pierce and Doc don't agree with them.  They must all be idiots.

I didn't ignore it. I said sully made us a better rebounding team and is better than bass. Do you deny this? I said it was quite obvious just by watching the games that sully was not the problem.

You cannot say the same for rondo. "Its funny guys like KG and pierce and doc don't agree with this" Yeah, because if they did they would tell the media all about it.

You beat me to laughing at this post because it is exactly that... Laughable.

So Sully made us a better rebounding team, but now without him we are a worse rebounding team... And we have a better record...So, if Sully didnt rebound the ball as much we would have definitely played better.

This is basically what you are doing with Rondo, and you can sway it anyway. People keep saying numbers dont lie, 20 - 23 with Rondo 12 - 4 without. But with Sully we were that same record so you can easily say "numbers dont lie" and Sully is the problem.

To think this team is better without Rondo, a top 3 true Point guard in the league. Is just ridiculous.

[Snakehead]

Stats are great but have to be taken in context.

1. Rondo has hardly played with the best defensive player in the league this year. When Avery Bradley was added to last year's starting team, they became the best defensive team since the 2007-08 Celtics. Bradley was not playing with Rondo for most of that pre-injury record. Bradley might be playing his best ball as a Celtic right now.

2. People mention movement when they mention the difference in the offense pre- and post Rondo's injury. Think about that for a moment. If players were getting off on fast breaks with Rondo and moving around more in the half court when Rondo was around, do you think the Celtics record would have been what it was prior to his injury?

3. The Celtics have had starts of seasons when they are unbeatable and they have had starts when they sputtered along until something clicked in they play great. With Pierce and Terry fighting through nagging injuries, with no Bradley, with Green and Wilcox overcoming heart surgery operations and with Lee, Green, Terry, Barbosa, Wilcox, Darko, and the rookies all trying to figure out their roles, this wasn't going to be a year where they started off unbeatable.

Yes, I think a definite line of demarcation can be drawn around the time Rondo got injured(though I think around Bradley's return would be better) where this team's performance changed and several players suddenly saw the quality of their effort, their performance, and their knowledge of what they were doing increase and make the team as a whole play like the contender everyone thought it was going to be before the season started.

Unfortunately regular season wins and winning 4 games out of seven games to the same team as they game plan your players much more individually are two different things. We couldn't beat Miami without Bradley last year, We certainly aren't beating them without Rondo, Sully and Barbosa.

I recall a number of early games in the season where someone would run out on a break and Rondo wouldn't get them ball but would rather bring it up himself.  A player only runs out so many times before he determines it is a wasted effort and doesn't do it.  when Rondo was on the team there wasn't nearly the ball movement.  It was about Rondo dribbling around till someone got open and Rondo could get a pass in an assist situation.  Without Rondo, the ball just moves around a lot more and when someone is open the shot comes.  I certainly think Rondo could fit fine in that type of system, but he just hasn't play that way.  If he can't adapt he needs to be traded.

And seriously what does it say that the team can lose its best player and add its 5th best player and get better on both ends of the floor.  That is much more a knock on Rondo than a positive to Bradley.

But our offense isn't much different.  You say it's better but it's basically the same.

Individual players are just shooting better or in Green's case especially, playing better.

The defense has improved but that is a credit to Avery Bradley.

[pearljammer10]

Our offense was dying for better outside shooting for much of this year. Bottom third of the league at 33%, 37% would be top 10.

That increase alone is 2 points per game more, more when you factor we're taking 2 more per game. That's the majority of our offensive improvement right there, better 3 point shooting and more of it.

This is not the main thing. The main thing is the score. With Rondo, the team was under .500 score, fighting for the 8-spot. Without Rondo, the team is 12-4 and clearly the better team in all components. These are facts.

No they are not.

Avery Bradley's return has come with a huge improvement in our defense.  Other players have just started playing better.  Look at Jeff Green especially. There are many factors.

We are winning because of our defense right now.

Are there things to take form this streak going forward and how Rondo should integrate into the team?  Yes.  But how some people act like Rondo was literally a net negative for this team is unbelievable.

Thank you for saying that. Thank you.

Since we're using stats, lets look at Rondo's +/- when he was playing before the injury and tell me if he had a game where he had a negative score?

Here I'll put in the link for you guys to check it out yourselves.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01/gamelog/2013/

NONE! We are 20-23 when Rondo was playing because we were not hitting shots. It's that simple. While I agree that the ball is moving more fluid without him, please do not tell me that Rondo is hogging the ball. He's finding teammates and not hitting shots while he was healthy (yeah that's right I saw the games), that's not his fault...

Best point I've seen here all day!!

Rondo was getting the ball to teamates in the spots the needed the ball to get there. It was his fault that they werent hitting the open shots. Rondo would probably be averaging 16 assists per game if teammates hit even 30% of the easy shots they missed that he set up for them.

[Greenback]

I really hope Rondo gets traded before next season so that we all stop arguing and Rondo doesn't come back mess up the team again.

He has been on the trade block for years but no one wants him.  Rondo has been showcased and his stats built up to increase his market value.

[crafty213]

Celtics are 14-7 without Rondo this season.

101.5 per 100 possession without him, 99.2 with him. Playing with slightly more pace, less fast break points but shooting the ball better since his injury.

This season with Rondo they have averaged 95.2/game vs 97.8/ game without(Not including last night).If you factor in defensive ranking of opponent the Rondo effect shrinks a bit more if you believe on average you score less against better defenses. Avg ranking of opponent defenses with Rondo - 14 vs without Rondo 18. So they have played 20 games against worse defenses on average and that has lead to a whopping 2.6 pts/game improvement.

I think the reality is the defense started to turn around when Bradley returned. Green & Bradley took a while to get going offensively because of the health issues and Pierce stepped up his game when Rondo went down.  It was a team underachieving before the injury that had figured some things out before that ugly road trip Rondo got injured on. The underachievers have stepped up their games.  Similar to the dramatic turnaround last season.

[Lightskinsmurf]

How come no one on here ever points out the Celtics record with and with out Jared Sullinger?  It's only one game different then their record with and without Rondo but no one blames Sully for the Celtics problems.  I am not saying he was a problem I'm just pointing out how the argument against Rondo works both ways.  If you can make the argument based on record for Rondo then the Celtics really need to trade Sully as soon as he's healthy because he's been holding them back.

Great point.

I was saying the same thing about people not considering how much better we were with Bradley on defense.

There has been too much turmoil this season to draw clear cut statements like this.

Its not a great point at all really. If you watch the games you could clearly see sully was helping our team a great deal with his rebounding and lack of being like bass. Rondo on the other hand, he was hurting the team. The ball is always in his hands so unless he plays great the team suffers. Plus his defense made me ill.

This post is laughable.  You have some giant battle axe to grind and it's getting tired to read.

Translation: "I have no legit counter point so Ill just insult your post and move on" Nothing I said was false.

I've made points throughout this forum and in this very thread.  Go look them all up.

It's funny you say this responding to a comment made by another poster which says "Why don't we think Sullinger made our team worse?" which you just ignore.  So if you want to ignore the record with Sullinger, then we'll ignore Rondo's record.  So what are your points then?  I'd love to hear them.

We've already seen stats that our percentages aren't much different shooting, our pace is about the same, our fast break points are about the same.

Your point is just "Sullinger clearly made us better, Rondo clearly worse" LOL.  Wow great points.  It's funny guys like KG and Pierce and Doc don't agree with them.  They must all be idiots.

I didn't ignore it. I said sully made us a better rebounding team and is better than bass. Do you deny this? I said it was quite obvious just by watching the games that sully was not the problem.

You cannot say the same for rondo. "Its funny guys like KG and pierce and doc don't agree with this" Yeah, because if they did they would tell the media all about it.

Sullinger is obviously better than Bass and the best rebounder on our team, but you completely miss the point.  The point is there are many factors, of course you ignore that.  You just ignore my whole post here, no surprise.  Why won't you talk about Avery?

And how could I not say the same about Rondo?  He isn't a better PG than anyone else on our roster?  Is that really what you are saying here?

Rondo has done a good job tricking analysts, fans, players on his own team and others, top all time players like KG, Kobe, Magic Johnson into thinking he's a  good player when he actually ruins teams he is on.  He's pretty amazing that way, not as a basketball player.  You nailed it.

On a final note, some Oscar worthy acting from Pierce here, not shown is after when he was giddy  afterwards in the locker room that Rondo was out for the year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isGpYWyC3qI

I've talked about the impact avery has had on our team both this year and last more than anyone on these boards. I actually had people telling me bradley was overrated and they were giving excuses to why our defense dramatically improved once he was inserted into the starting lineup.

Rondo being a good player was never in question. The question is does rondos style of play fit well with this team and in my opinion it doesn't. I've already talked about that video. How else did you expect pierce to react? Like he didn't care? That video proves nothing.