Author Topic: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate  (Read 37012 times)

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Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #180 on: March 07, 2013, 05:39:23 AM »

Offline connor

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First, I appreciate a post with basketball logic - even though I completely disagree with your conclusion. I have no interest in building around Rondo - or even going forward with him next season - because his ball-controlling offensive game, not to mention his growing ambivalence toward defense, is ill-suited to the group of players.

We have two options: Dump this roster and rebuild from scratch around Rondo, or dump Rondo - unless, of course, you're satisfied with the 20-23 product or Rondo has a similar revelation and remakes his ball-stopping offensive game. The second alternative is FAR more reasonable, doable and attractive than the first, and here's why:

Rondo needs the ball in his hands to be effective but as the first half of the season evidenced, he lost his gauge on exactly how long is too long in his own hands. He is simply not a scorer, even though his mid-range jumpshot has improved, his foul shooting remains below average for his position.

Further, it is his defense - or his unwillingness to play same - that has fallen off the ends of the earth.

When he wants to play - when the cameras are rolling - Rondo can be an asset to anyone's team.

But it's simply irrefutable that the ball moves better on the offensive end without him. It's time to begin entertaining the notion that this group of players is just better with Bradley and Lee in the backcourt.

And defensively, the improvement is predictably documentable when you're not dealing with forced interior rotations because Rondo's turned his man loose. Again. It's just disingenuous to try to separate Rondo's injury and this team's improved performance. They are related - not because Rondo isn't talented, but because his game is a square peg in a round hole with the other players in Doc's rotation.

Rondo was the right guy at the right time with three premier scorers.

He is not the right guy to build this franchise around going forward. There will be value available for Rondo in the summer. Ainge needs to go get it and propel this rebuild on the fly forward.
The way I look at it, this streak of wins and quality play based on ball movement and a slightly more up tempo game without Rondo may just be the best thing that has happened for him/the Celtics. Because now Rondo can see that this team can operate without him controlling the ball for 17-20 seconds every possession and focus on playing better defense and trying to improve our productivity not stifle it by being overbearing.

Rondo definitely holds the ball too much. He isn't willing enough to make the hockey assist, getting the ball out of his hands early so that it can be worked to the open man. He would rather wait and wait and wait and hope that someone slips open, or that he can lead someone into space (and he has an incredible ability to do that).

But seeing that this team is perfectly capable putting up the same assist numbers without him gives Rondo the opportunity to see what parts of his game can be incorporated to take this team to another level. He doesn't need the ball in his hands to be effective, that just happens to be the way he has been playing. His mid range game is getting better each year (still not great but certainly capable) and he has shown he can make great off the ball cuts to the basket (a la Avery Bradley). He certainly can help this team by using his vision and the ball in his hands to make guys better AND without the ball in his hands using that same court vision to get himself in good position.

Yes his defense has gotten even more lackadaisical but I think a large part of that has to do with effort and him hanging his hat so much on his assists rather than his overall game. He has the talent to be a solid on ball defender, but sometimes its like he is just waiting for the ball to get back in his hands. I think he can rededicate himself to being an honorary pitbull if he wants to.

Yes a lot of these problems have to do with Doc and his utilization of his guys, but this roster is easily the most complicated out of any of the legit playoff teams. Give the guy a bit of a break. So many new guys, balancing all these different styles and needs, a total lack of size and injuries to boot. Its a constant work in progress, but when it clicks it looks GOOD.

It all comes down to whether Rondo is going to try to work his game into whats best for the team or if he is just going to fall back into his old ways of dominating the ball. If he isn't fine, move him, but lets at least wait until he is healthy so we can get full value back and give him a chance to try to integrate, move the ball more and use his athleticism to put our defense back to where it was. Maybe I am just too stubborn to give up on such talent that just needs to be used differently.   




Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #181 on: March 07, 2013, 06:32:36 AM »

Online SCeltic34

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This thread.  Again.  I'm surprised people even bother offering rational counterarguments to these threads anymore.

In other news, the Lakers are clearly a better team and have a better chance in the playoffs without a healthy Pau Gasol.  They have a better record without him.  Non-debatable  ::)

Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #182 on: March 07, 2013, 06:39:54 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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How many rings do you think these guys will win without Rondo?   This current team, my bet is zero.

Rondo was not the guy killing us.   PP was horrible in the first half of the season and has since stepped it up.  A lot of these other pieces are now fitting.   For whatever, reason guys were coasting when Rondo was there and deferring to him.  But that is not on Rondo, perhaps the coach and some stars resting themselves.

I could just as easily say our record is better without Darko and all the same points apply or Sully.  I think we are better because we survived the Mayan Apocalypse.   Our record has improved since then , perhaps our guys were worried to death about it.   This makes about as much since and guess what our record is better is better since then as you claim.   This is a FACT!  Albeit an absurd one and one not based in reality but neither are the Rondo claims.

Every basketball guy you read or hear talk says RR is one of our best players.  Tommy thinks it and he has forgot more about basketball than you will ever know.

I always think these Rondo haters have to be Telfairy fans. Sebastian is that you?

Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #183 on: March 07, 2013, 06:45:30 AM »

Offline jdz101

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Yeah this one thread will definitely end the Rondo debate on celticsblog.





how much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck was chris bosh?

Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #184 on: March 07, 2013, 06:46:27 AM »

Offline scaryjerry

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Except they did the same thing last year with him? :-*

Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #185 on: March 07, 2013, 06:52:40 AM »

Offline vjcsmoke

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I can't explain why you guys are playing so much better since Rondo's injury, but I am still a firm believer you guys are an even better team with Rondo. Obviously the record says I'm full of ****...

Rondo has some exploitable weaknesses, but he is without a doubt in my mind a special talent. Not a single team in this league wouldn't be drooling over potentially signing him.

Would you mind trading Howard for Rondo then?  He will be all yours as long as we can sign DH to a long term extension. :-)

Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #186 on: March 07, 2013, 07:10:02 AM »

Offline celtics2

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Some people like to talk black and white because that is how some people think. Some people have opinions that they value highly and seek out data that they can use to support it. Unfortunately, NBA game data is messy.

Personally, I will withhold judgment until the playoffs. If we have great success in the playoffs, it will surprise me greatly and make me reconsider Rondo's value. I tend to agree with the idea that guys are playing harder to make up for Rondo's absence. My concern is that they other teams might be able to add another gear in the playoffs, while we might already be at our max. The past few years, we could count on the team improving once the playoffs came and players finally went all out.

No matter what happens, we don't know how things would have turned out with Rondo. That means arguments like this will never end.
[/quote]

Rondo ain't gonna be in this Season's Playoffs. So how you going to compare?

Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #187 on: March 07, 2013, 07:16:59 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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No they are not.

Avery Bradley's return has come with a huge improvement in our defense.  Other players have just started playing better.  Look at Jeff Green especially. There are many factors.

We are winning because of our defense right now.

Are there things to take form this streak going forward and how Rondo should integrate into the team?  Yes.  But how some people act like Rondo was literally a net negative for this team is unbelievable.

We got a good improvement to our defense when Bradley came back.  We got a GREAT improvement to our defense when Lee and AB started spending big minutes on the court together in the starting lineup.

Other players started playing better the instantly Rondo went down - it was like a switch was flipped.  The intensity, the ball movement, the sharing, the confidence of everybody on the team improved, and it was clearly evident to anybody who watched those games.  The change was instant the second Rondo was out.  I would argue those guys are all playing better BECAUSE Rondo went down.  Partly due to increased opportunity and role in the offense, partly because of increaed feeling of responsiblity.  The others seem less driven when Rondo is there and they seem to fall asleep on offense because they just aren't involved enough.  It probably makes them feel like support pieces, wheras now they actually feel like part of the action.

How come no one on here ever points out the Celtics record with and with out Jared Sullinger?  It's only one game different then their record with and without Rondo but no one blames Sully for the Celtics problems.

Sully was statistically one of our best players towards the end of the season.  He was not only our best rebouder, but he was also statistically one of our top defenders (his pts allowed was top 20 in the NBA) and also one of our better offensive players, hence why he had the highest on/off stat of anybody on the team. Rondo's net rating wasn't even positive...it was actually negative last I checked just before he went down.

Also Sullinger didn't change the way the team played.  He was a role play who did the little things and never restricted other guys.  Rondo is a key player who is treated as a key player, so he always has the ball in his hands and this (IMHO) hinders other guys.  He always has the ball in his hands because he's a top 2 PG in the NBA, and any team with a PG of that calibre would be insant NOT to put the ball in their hands 90% of the time...but in our case that just happens to not benefit the team.

Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #188 on: March 07, 2013, 07:33:03 AM »

Offline ssspence

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Bottom line is that nobody will convince anybody on either side of this argument, so what's the point of a million threads about it? Short of this team winning a title there's really no way to know for sure whether they are better or not without him, so why does it have to be brought up nightly?


You're right, it's pretty pointless considering no championship was or is coming either way -- and the number of threads is getting old. 

What bothers me is the 'it's dumb luck' mentality Rondo martyrs insist upon during this stretch of success without him. It's not objective.

He wasn't as efficient as he should have been, and outside of his elders, his teammates grew tired of his shtick. He misunderstood what it means to be anointed the leader of the team and did a crappy job of it. A bunch of guys are playing far freer an far better without him.

Why is this such a major admission? Just accept it and hope the guy has learned -- their success without him is the best thing that coulda happened to him under the circumstances.
 
Mike

(My name is not Mike)

Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #189 on: March 07, 2013, 08:09:21 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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So we are better off without Sully too I suppose?
There is no debate...This team is not considered a true contender without Rondo. Regular season wins are great.
Rondo and Avery Bradley last year were part of the best defensive starting unit in the NBA.

*Rondo didn't get to play with this Avery Bradley this season. Bradley is finding his feet and shooting touch.
*Lee is finding his feet.
*Terry is consistent.
*Green has put together a very nice resume over the last 10 games.
*Wilcox is back and running the floor.

If anything, Paul Pierce having to play PG and passing more has helped us. He's making an extra pass instead of just receiving a pass from Rondo and chucking it up.

The resergence of Avery Bradley and Jeff Green is what is helping us win. If you add Rondo to that, we are a true contender. Unfortunately without him, we are a team of 2 old superstars and a few good role players and winning it all is just not that probable without Rondo in multiple 7 game series against teams like Miami, OKC, Chicago and the lite..



You sir, had the best point.

It is a fact that the record is better without Rondo. What the OP forgot to mention that it's also a fact that when he was playing, he was still able to find teammates and get them good quality shots. Shots that they missed, A LOT because they we're struggling. It don't matter if Rondo held the ball too much, he found people that are open, and not connecting, and that contributed to the loses.

As far as I'm concerned this debate is and will not end.
and to you sir for adding even more common sense to this 'non-debatable' topic




Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #190 on: March 07, 2013, 08:25:39 AM »

Offline CelticsFan9

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Here's the way I look at the situation:

Have we played better without Rondo?  Yes

The question now becomes why?

Well, I don't think it's fair to say Rondo was holding us back.

I think the reason our players have been playing much better is because they've had more minutes, more shots, and really, more impact on the game.  Someone's got to take Rondo's touches, and our players have taken advantage of the opportunity.

While this may be working during the regular season, we're going to struggle in the postseason.  To win a title, you need a superstar (unless you're the 2004 Detroit Pistons), and Rondo was that guy for us.

Will we compete and be a tough out?  Absolutely

Will we win a championship?  Unfortunately, no

Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #191 on: March 07, 2013, 08:43:51 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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Didn't the Celtics do something very similar last year with Rondo?   


You know, start the season awful only to play like one of the better teams down the stretch and into the playoffs?

Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #192 on: March 07, 2013, 08:46:46 AM »

Offline eugen

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While this may be working during the regular season, we're going to struggle in the postseason.  To win a title, you need a superstar (unless you're the 2004 Detroit Pistons), and Rondo was that guy for us.


To win a title you need a superstar...well...but Rondo is not the superstar who can give you the title. Rondo is a great point guard but not a superstar, not  a game closer or kind of player to resolve the games like Lebron, Durant, Koby etc. There is no team during all NBA history winning NBA title based on point guard. See the Chicago of 90s, who based the team on 2 big guys: Jordan and Pippen

Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #193 on: March 07, 2013, 08:48:46 AM »

Offline Jeff

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Fact: Rondo has a ring, COUNT THE RINGZZZZZ!!!1

blah blah blah
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Re: (Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate
« Reply #194 on: March 07, 2013, 08:50:20 AM »

Offline truthhurts34

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So we are better off without Sully too I suppose?
There is no debate...This team is not considered a true contender without Rondo. Regular season wins are great.
Rondo and Avery Bradley last year were part of the best defensive starting unit in the NBA.

*Rondo didn't get to play with this Avery Bradley this season. Bradley is finding his feet and shooting touch.
*Lee is finding his feet.
*Terry is consistent.
*Green has put together a very nice resume over the last 10 games.
*Wilcox is back and running the floor.

If anything, Paul Pierce having to play PG and passing more has helped us. He's making an extra pass instead of just receiving a pass from Rondo and chucking it up.

The resergence of Avery Bradley and Jeff Green is what is helping us win. If you add Rondo to that, we are a true contender. Unfortunately without him, we are a team of 2 old superstars and a few good role players and winning it all is just not that probable without Rondo in multiple 7 game series against teams like Miami, OKC, Chicago and the lite..



You sir, had the best point.

It is a fact that the record is better without Rondo. What the OP forgot to mention that it's also a fact that when he was playing, he was still able to find teammates and get them good quality shots. Shots that they missed, A LOT because they we're struggling. It don't matter if Rondo held the ball too much, he found people that are open, and not connecting, and that contributed to the loses.

As far as I'm concerned this debate is and will not end.

Except Jeff Green, Lee, Terry etc are not spot up shooters like Ray allen. Those were the kind of shots Jeff Green, Terry & Lee were taking pre-rondo injury.

It does matter if Rondo holds the ball too much, these players cannot stand around while Rajon pounds the ball and be expected to be automatic when he decides to pass to them. Again, they are not Ray allen or Eddie House, that is not their game, they are free flowing players that need to be a part of the ball movement to be effective. Do you have any comprehension of different types of players?

Jackie MacMullen reported that Rondo has realized this while being injured and that he wants to return with a different approach that more suits his players' styles. So you are on your own on this one, not even Rondo agrees with you.

My assessment is, we are better without Rondo ONLY if he continued to pound the ball the way he did this season. 5 fingers make a fist, that just wasn't the right type of offense for the types of players we have this year on the wings.

Now if he has conforms to the others style of play, then we will absolutely be better with Rondo than we currently are once he returns.