Author Topic: The NBA's top 10 PG's according to SI (Rondo is number 6)  (Read 24196 times)

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Re: The NBA's top 10 PG's according to SI (Rondo is number 6)
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2013, 10:18:41 AM »

Offline beklog

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Derrick Rose needs a huge asterisk, but considering he's a former MVP, don't care about it.

That was my first thought, but he's still only 24--which is absolutely mind boggling.

yeah I forget how young he is. Pretty scary

Yeah pretty scary on the num of injuries he had at a young age.. unfortunatelly promising PGs are following his path.. Irvin, Rubio, Wall, Holiday...
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Re: The NBA's top 10 PG's according to SI (Rondo is number 6)
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2013, 10:21:00 AM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

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You can say that you think Rondo is the best. But if you wouldn't trade Rondo for Irving or CP3 you're crazy.

Re: The NBA's top 10 PG's according to SI (Rondo is number 6)
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2013, 10:22:54 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Derrick Rose needs a huge asterisk, but considering he's a former MVP, don't care about it.

That was my first thought, but he's still only 24--which is absolutely mind boggling.

yeah I forget how young he is. Pretty scary

Yeah pretty scary on the num of injuries he had at a young age.. unfortunatelly promising PGs are following his path.. Irvin, Rubio, Wall, Holiday...

Rose has only had one serious injury, hasn't he?

What major injuries has Jrue Holiday had?


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Re: The NBA's top 10 PG's according to SI (Rondo is number 6)
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2013, 10:25:34 AM »

Offline BleedGreen1989

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Derrick Rose needs a huge asterisk, but considering he's a former MVP, don't care about it.

That was my first thought, but he's still only 24--which is absolutely mind boggling.

yeah I forget how young he is. Pretty scary

Yeah pretty scary on the num of injuries he had at a young age.. unfortunatelly promising PGs are following his path.. Irvin, Rubio, Wall, Holiday...

Rose has only had one serious injury, hasn't he?

What major injuries has Jrue Holiday had?

yeah I believe it's only been the ACL with Rose
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Re: The NBA's top 10 PG's according to SI (Rondo is number 6)
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2013, 10:32:16 AM »

Online Moranis

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I just don't get how you can have the league leader for Assists that high (or low, either way you say it) if we are ranking the PG position.

Oh well though.

Poor FG shooter,, shaq-like FT shooter. He's a liability in the 4th, where the others are assets.


Rondo Career fg%: 48%

Chris Paul: 47%

Westbrook: 43%

Kyrie Irving: 475

Rose: 46%

Tony Parker : 49%


Seems like his FG% is on par with these guys.
Sure but if you look at Points Per Shot, Rondo is way down that list (this year)

Rondo 1.12
Westbrook 1.25
Irving 1.27
Parker 1.35
Paul 1.37

Those guys all shoot more shots than Rondo, which negatively affects a percentage.  They are also their teams #1 or #2 scoring option, which means they don't get nearly as many open looks and often have forced time expiring type shots that Rondo doesn't get. 

I mean Serge Ibaka shoots 56%.  Would anyone call him a better shooter than Kevin Durant who shoots 51%?
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Re: The NBA's top 10 PG's according to SI (Rondo is number 6)
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2013, 10:59:11 AM »

Offline nostar

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You know I'll concede that Paul, Parker, Rose and Irving might be better than Rondo. Westbrook at #3 irks me.

Westbrook is an incredibly talented, incredibly stupid player. I don't mean he's bad, although many times that is the translation. He makes stupid basketball plays about as frequently as he makes smart ones. His stats are really great but I'm not buying that he's better than Rose, Rondo and Irving. As a GM I'm definitely taking Irving or Rose over Westbrook to build around and I personally would take Rondo over Westbrook, though that is tougher to justify. In complete honesty I might take Curry over him too.

Westbrook has a bad attitude and low basketball IQ. He relies on his athleticism to make him great and I know what those players look like after 5-6 years of abuse. The way he plays is begging for an injury and I'm not sure he's the guy I want leading my team from the PG spot.

I also think 9/10 don't really belong on the list yet. I'd put Lillard on before I put either. They are all in the Lowry/Bledsoe/Holiday category. Lillard has a chance to be better and to a lesser extent Holiday and Bledsoe too. Lawson is as good now as he'll ever be and same goes for Lowry. They are passable PGs on good teams and good point guards on bad teams.

I'd make this list differently. If it's statistics-based then Irving and Westbrook probably are 1 and 2. If it's intangibles then Rondo is top 3. If it's leadership then Paul and Parker are probably at the top. If it's about style then Westbrook doesn't even crack the top 100. I think the SI metric is very record dependent. When the C's were on a tear last post-season Rondo was hailed by many as the best PG in the game. Now he's 6?

Derrick Rose needs a huge asterisk, but considering he's a former MVP, don't care about it.
Shouldn't Rondo then get the same asterisk?

Rondo isn't missing an entire season (plus) like Rose is. Rose only played 60% of his games last season and he hasn't played yet this year. If he comes back this week he will have been out the equivalent of 1 season. If we have Rondo back by October he'll only have missed about half of 1 season.

Re: The NBA's top 10 PG's according to SI (Rondo is number 6)
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2013, 11:09:37 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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You know I'll concede that Paul, Parker, Rose and Irving might be better than Rondo. Westbrook at #3 irks me.

Westbrook is an incredibly talented, incredibly stupid player. I don't mean he's bad, although many times that is the translation. He makes stupid basketball plays about as frequently as he makes smart ones. His stats are really great but I'm not buying that he's better than Rose, Rondo and Irving. As a GM I'm definitely taking Irving or Rose over Westbrook to build around and I personally would take Rondo over Westbrook, though that is tougher to justify. In complete honesty I might take Curry over him too.

Westbrook has a bad attitude and low basketball IQ. He relies on his athleticism to make him great and I know what those players look like after 5-6 years of abuse. The way he plays is begging for an injury and I'm not sure he's the guy I want leading my team from the PG spot.

I also think 9/10 don't really belong on the list yet. I'd put Lillard on before I put either. They are all in the Lowry/Bledsoe/Holiday category. Lillard has a chance to be better and to a lesser extent Holiday and Bledsoe too. Lawson is as good now as he'll ever be and same goes for Lowry. They are passable PGs on good teams and good point guards on bad teams.

I'd make this list differently. If it's statistics-based then Irving and Westbrook probably are 1 and 2. If it's intangibles then Rondo is top 3. If it's leadership then Paul and Parker are probably at the top. If it's about style then Westbrook doesn't even crack the top 100. I think the SI metric is very record dependent. When the C's were on a tear last post-season Rondo was hailed by many as the best PG in the game. Now he's 6?

Derrick Rose needs a huge asterisk, but considering he's a former MVP, don't care about it.
Shouldn't Rondo then get the same asterisk?

Rondo isn't missing an entire season (plus) like Rose is. Rose only played 60% of his games last season and he hasn't played yet this year. If he comes back this week he will have been out the equivalent of 1 season. If we have Rondo back by October he'll only have missed about half of 1 season.



We do not know when Rondo will be back. 

Re: The NBA's top 10 PG's according to SI (Rondo is number 6)
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2013, 11:25:41 AM »

Offline BballTim

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You can say that you think Rondo is the best. But if you wouldn't trade Rondo for Irving or CP3 you're crazy.

  There's no guarantee that Irving or CP3 will take you farther than Rondo will. But beyond that we aren't going to be able to trade for either of them, just like we're unlikely to be able to trade for players like James or Durant. We do have Rondo who plays like a star in the playoffs, we don't need to trade him unless we're getting the same postseason performance.

Re: The NBA's top 10 PG's according to SI (Rondo is number 6)
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2013, 11:28:25 AM »

Offline beklog

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Derrick Rose needs a huge asterisk, but considering he's a former MVP, don't care about it.

That was my first thought, but he's still only 24--which is absolutely mind boggling.

yeah I forget how young he is. Pretty scary

Yeah pretty scary on the num of injuries he had at a young age.. unfortunatelly promising PGs are following his path.. Irvin, Rubio, Wall, Holiday...

Rose has only had one serious injury, hasn't he?

What major injuries has Jrue Holiday had?

yeah I believe it's only been the ACL with Rose

As far as I remember he was in and out of Bulls lineup before the ACL... could be hip cant find details but got something during from wiki:
"He was selected to the U.S. Select Team to scrimmage against and prepare the National Team for the Olympics in Beijing. In mid-July, he played two games in the Orlando Pro Summer League until forced out by tendinitis in his right knee, ending his summer"
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Re: The NBA's top 10 PG's according to SI (Rondo is number 6)
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2013, 11:36:21 AM »

Offline CelticG1

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I just don't get how you can have the league leader for Assists that high (or low, either way you say it) if we are ranking the PG position.

Oh well though.

Poor FG shooter,, shaq-like FT shooter. He's a liability in the 4th, where the others are assets.


Rondo Career fg%: 48%

Chris Paul: 47%

Westbrook: 43%

Kyrie Irving: 475

Rose: 46%

Tony Parker : 49%


Seems like his FG% is on par with these guys.
Sure but if you look at Points Per Shot, Rondo is way down that list (this year)

Rondo 1.12
Westbrook 1.25
Irving 1.27
Parker 1.35
Paul 1.37

Those guys all shoot more shots than Rondo, which negatively affects a percentage.  They are also their teams #1 or #2 scoring option, which means they don't get nearly as many open looks and often have forced time expiring type shots that Rondo doesn't get. 

I mean Serge Ibaka shoots 56%.  Would anyone call him a better shooter than Kevin Durant who shoots 51%?

I think its more that its just been exaggerated a bit. Plus the numbers, you can look at stats in so many ways to fit your arguement. There are always counters to everything.

Its ridiculous to think that Rondo is a liability in the 4th q tho. Hes one of the only guys in the game that can dominate a 4th quarter with scoring, rebounds, passing and or defense. Ive seen him.

Its not all the time but generally in big games he can piece together at least 2 of those attributes when most players only have a couple of those attributes to begin with.

Re: The NBA's top 10 PG's according to SI (Rondo is number 6)
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2013, 11:57:35 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

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The writer lost all credibility with me, putting Westbrook at #3.

You know who Westbrook would be if he didn't play with Durant?  Monta Ellis.  That's right, I said Monta Ellis.  An unconscionable chucker, who brings little else to the game.

CP3 and Parker, I'll concede are, at this very moment, a slight notch above Rondo.  They are close enough in playmaking ability, that their obviously better ability to score, gives them the edge.  Irving probably will be better shortly, but isn't at moment.  Rose, I'd put on par with Rondo.  Rose is immensely better as a scorer, Rondo is immensely better as a play maker.

Ultimately, the writer seems to place higher value on scoring ability (as do many).  From the PG position, I do not.

Re: The NBA's top 10 PG's according to SI (Rondo is number 6)
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2013, 12:16:39 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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The writer lost all credibility with me, putting Westbrook at #3.

You know who Westbrook would be if he didn't play with Durant?  Monta Ellis.  That's right, I said Monta Ellis.  An unconscionable chucker, who brings little else to the game.

CP3 and Parker, I'll concede are, at this very moment, a slight notch above Rondo.  They are close enough in playmaking ability, that their obviously better ability to score, gives them the edge.  Irving probably will be better shortly, but isn't at moment.  Rose, I'd put on par with Rondo.  Rose is immensely better as a scorer, Rondo is immensely better as a play maker.

Ultimately, the writer seems to place higher value on scoring ability (as do many).  From the PG position, I do not.

Don't see a problem with Monta Ellis, but you can add defense + superior rebounding, and in the end, better passer too.

CP3 and Parker are more than a slight notch above Rondo at the moment. I'd say Irving is definitely better than Rondo at the moment. And Rose once again quite better than Rondo, but asterisk right now because of the ACL.

Don't see the problem with putting high value on scoring ability, and Rondo needs to do a lot more and better of the other things if he wants to be considered above any of the other players. He just isn't, in particular on how he's played this year, and the inconsistent effort he brought this year, and his deteriorated defense, which wasn't good as far as I'm concerned anyways.

Re: The NBA's top 10 PG's according to SI (Rondo is number 6)
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2013, 12:25:06 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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My first point is that I don't think Rondo is any more of liability in the 4th quarter than in any other part of the game.

My second point, anyone who watches the games and thinks that Rondo is a shooter on par with the other top PGs is seeing something that I certianly am not.  And yes, the stats are misleading.  Obaka was a good example (56%) and Ben Wallace, one of the worst shooters in the history of the game managed a FG% around 50%.

Third, I think SI has Rondo about right, 6th in the league at his position.  I know that is far lower than some feel but still pretty good.  Deron Williams could get healthy and be better and Curry is really coming on too so even if you don't buy Westbrook or Irving, Rondo still ends up at about 6-8.

Re: The NBA's top 10 PG's according to SI (Rondo is number 6)
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2013, 12:39:59 PM »

Offline ssspence

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I just don't get how you can have the league leader for Assists that high (or low, either way you say it) if we are ranking the PG position.

Oh well though.

Poor FG shooter,, shaq-like FT shooter. He's a liability in the 4th, where the others are assets.


Rondo Career fg%: 48%

Chris Paul: 47%

Westbrook: 43%

Kyrie Irving: 475

Rose: 46%

Tony Parker : 49%


Seems like his FG% is on par with these guys.
Sure but if you look at Points Per Shot, Rondo is way down that list (this year)

Rondo 1.12
Westbrook 1.25
Irving 1.27
Parker 1.35
Paul 1.37

Those guys all shoot more shots than Rondo, which negatively affects a percentage.  They are also their teams #1 or #2 scoring option, which means they don't get nearly as many open looks and often have forced time expiring type shots that Rondo doesn't get. 

I mean Serge Ibaka shoots 56%.  Would anyone call him a better shooter than Kevin Durant who shoots 51%?

I think its more that its just been exaggerated a bit. Plus the numbers, you can look at stats in so many ways to fit your arguement. There are always counters to everything.

Its ridiculous to think that Rondo is a liability in the 4th q tho. Hes one of the only guys in the game that can dominate a 4th quarter with scoring, rebounds, passing and or defense. Ive seen him.

Its not all the time but generally in big games he can piece together at least 2 of those attributes when most players only have a couple of those attributes to begin with.

Certainly not ridiculous. Rondo's effect on team offense in the 4th is a relevant comparison issue. But I think you're right to avoid statistic spin -- let's use real world situations to add color to the point.

If Paul, Curry, Irving, Parker, etc were on the Cs, do you think the only Cs play we'd see for their last shot (almost literally) is the Pierce iso fadeaway? Considering Doc's reputation for designing situational plays -- and how easy this one is for opposing teams to predict and defend -- I doubt it.

And if any of those same players were Celtics, do you think 9 times out of 10 they would be the inbounder out of 4th Q time outs? Not likely, because they're threats from further than 10 feet, and therefore require defensive attention on the perimeter, opening up subsequent options for themselves and other players. Rondo doesn't (and fears foul shooting), so he tends to draw that job. 

Rondo's offensive deficiencies should be considered objectively in the overall pluses and minuses of his game, not ignored. And these elements became harder to disguise without a lethal catch-and-shoot motion guy like Ray Allen on the team.

I think 6th is pretty good for a guy who shoots less than 25% from 3, and less than 65% from the FT line.

 
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Re: The NBA's top 10 PG's according to SI (Rondo is number 6)
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2013, 12:51:36 PM »

Offline Banner18now!

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I just don't get how you can have the league leader for Assists that high (or low, either way you say it) if we are ranking the PG position.

Oh well though.

Poor FG shooter,, shaq-like FT shooter. He's a liability in the 4th, where the others are assets.


Liablity in the 4th?? Was he a liablity in the 4th quarter last year in game 7 against Philly?? Without him they don't go to the second round? How about game 2 in Miami last year in the 4th??