Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan

[Lightskinsmurf]

Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

[celtsfan84]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u69SCU79_O0

Linked above is an interesting take which begins with Danny Ainge's opinion on whether Michael Jordan is the greatest NBA player of all-time.

Ainge played with Bird, played against Jordan, and is the greatest GM in the league according to many (including BBallTim, if I remember correctly).

Worth note, he pretty much states exactly my opinion on the topic.  Magic, Barkley, and Kenny follow, so feel free to skip their opinions if they don't interest you.  Ainge begins the video and makes his opinion clear.  Ainge points out his defensive prowess and also argues that he made other players better, a frequent knock on MJ.

It isn't just "ESPN hype fans" and talking heads who like Jordan, as some have suggested. Plenty of scouts, GMs, players, coaches, and people with great basketball knowledge prefer Mike to Larry (and everyone else).

Ainge chimes in to begin the video and again at the 2:15 mark.  Add Danny Ainge to the list of people who think Michael Jordan is better than Larry.

Anyway, that's my opinion on the matter.  Interesting that so many from those teams that beat him early on agree.

[wayupnorth]

Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell is the greatest basketball player of all time. Period.

He's a smart guy, he was successful in college, olympics and won as a rookie. Yep, he had HOF teammates, but he made them better because he was the most intelligent guy on court. He was able to contain the most dominant basketball player of all time, prime Wilt Chamberlain. Bill and Wilt were world-class athletes, just as good if not better than MJ.

You're right comparing MJ to LeBron, two overhyped stars who are great players, both into top-10 all-time discussion. LeBron has a more complete game, but Jordan was a better defender. Both were good enough to get media attention in their early years, yet not good enough to beat their rivals. The difference is Jordan had to deal with Celtics/Lakers/Pistons, while the only great teams LeBron had to deal with is the Spurs and the Celtics. Great teams, still not good enough to compare to those 80s teams.

Both are very lucky. Jordan was lucky because of Bird/McHale/Bias/Reggie for the Celtics, Magic for the Lakers, Sampson for the Rockets had unlucky career endings, and the Pistons declined after their back-to-back titles.  LBJ is lucky because of KG's knee injury (Celtics 3-peat without that), and the Spurs are too old.

And both have taken advantage of ESPN/Nike/Stern new era of NBA. Star calls, media attention and endorsements. But Jordan was able to win a lot, while LeBron still has to prove he can win multiple titles.

Larry Bird was a comparable level to MJ, only because of MJ's defense and athleticism which helped him to be a great player. They share the All-time greats 2nd tier with Magic and Kareem, but they're half a step below Wilt (who had to deal with the Celtics) and two and a half steps below Bill Russell, absolute GOAT on and off the court, incredible player, great coach and huge personality.

I wish the Celtics get Larry Legend to work for them, he's also a great basketball mind, like Russell and unlike Jordan, who has shown little basketball knowledge in his time in Washington and Charlotte. Maybe Pippen was terribly underrated, because he was a better defender but all the credit went always to MJ.

Of course, if Bias can play for the 1987 Celtics, maybe McHale can rest to heal his foot, taking some weight off Larry's back, and the 1987-1988 Celtics with healthy McHale and Bird start a multiple title streak with Bias and Reggie entering their prime as champions. Then MJ (or the Detroit Pistons) is not another guy, but maybe a one time champion, maybe two.

Another interesting what if is, if Bill Russell had been drafted in the 80s, the kids would wear Air Russells. Of course, that means the 60s Celtics would've been "another team", so I'm fine with Air Jordans or Air LeBrons.

I guess you beat me to it!

TP!

[wayupnorth]

Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

While I personally would take Bill RUssell 100/100 when starting a new team, I said that mostly to make the point that just because YOU think that is the case does not make it true.

This is a very subjective topic and NO ONE can ever be right, because ther IS no definate answer.

You are always right though, so my opinion is clearly a joke, because it is not yours.

You could not prove that Russell was NOT the greatest of all time, no matter how much you "know" otherwise.

Are you always so arrogant, or is it just on the net?

[EJPLAYA]

Although they were mentioned in here as a side note, there isn't enough credit given to Stockton and Malone in these comments about Jordan not facing greats. I am assuming most were not old enough to have seen them actually playing, but they were both arguably (not necessarily actually, but arguably) the greatest players of all time at their position. I think John Stockton is without a doubt the greatest "true" point guard in NBA history. Will likely be the Assist leader and Steals leader for good. He is so far in front. Karl Malone was also amazing. Second all time in Points. (would have likely caught Kareem had he not gone to LA to chase a title) 6th all time in rebounds. 10th all time in steals.

To see this thread talking about Jordan not having any competition during his years... Had Jordan not been the greatest player of all time, Stockton and Malone would likely have had 3 rings on their fingers.

  Stockton and Malone only made it to the finals twice that I can recall. I saw Stockton play and there's no possible way he was close to as good as Magic. I personally thought that Stockton was somewhat overrated. He was very good and very consistent but he didn't really have that extra gear that great players have.

Overrated?! Are you kidding?! I am sure you must not have been paying attention. Here are the facts:

19,711 career pts. as a non-scoring PG (2000 shy of Larry Bird), 15,806 assists (#1 all time and HALF AGAIN as many as Magic's 10k) 3265 steals (almost TWICE as many as Magic's 1724) 51.5% career FG % (better than Magic's) , 83% career FT%.

His numbers dwarf Magic's. I have never considered Magic a true PG. He was an everything player and brought the ball up the floor. Yes he was one of the greatest BASKETBALL players of all time. No doubting that. He wasn't though really a true PG. Stockton was the prototypical PG that was so far away from being "overrated" that it isn't even funny. How anyone could call him overrated is unthinkable.

  Yes, Stockton played at a very high level for a very long time and his career stats are very impressive. I don't dispute that at all. I just don't think he was a "take over a game and carry your team" kind of player.

A true PG doesn't "take over a game and carry your team". He leads the team and gets players with the ball in their hands in the right spots so they can be effective. (assist leader). He puts pressure on the opponents ball handler to make it more difficult for them to score. (steals leader). Take over PG's don't win. Since Rondo has been a "take over" PG we haven't won anything.

  First of all we've won as much with Rondo as a "take over" pg as Stockton ever did in his career. Secondly if you think a true point guard never takes over a game and carries his team then you must not know much at all about Isiah Thomas.

First of all, we are a better team with Rondo sitting on the bench. It's a fact. This team would be legit contenders with Stockton on the floor instead of Rondo.

  If it's a fact that we're a better team without Rondo then barring major injury we'll be playing in the finals. Get back to me when that happens.

I watched Isaiah very closely and he is the one exception to the rule, however I would also argue that they won 2 championships with him only because of their nasty defense, not his scoring prowess.

  If you don't think Isiah was a great scorer then you didn't watch him closely. He's also far from the one exception to the rule. KJ, CP3, Tiny were also great scorers and that's without giving it a moment's thought.

The other thought is that if you don't think that Stockton ever took over and carried them in games then you clearly didn't watch Stockton. Just ask Barkley about him putting him out of the series when he was with Houston. Stockton had tons of games where he stepped in and scored big. You clearly were "watching" him in the box scores versus seeing him play much.

  Okay, so we've gone from "good point guards don't take over and carry teams" to "Stockton took over games and carried teams". And as for Stockton scoring big, he had 7 career playoff games where he scored 25 or more points. Rondo has 8.

KJ and CP3 haven't won jack. Tiny isn't in ANYONE'S argument as one of the great PG's of all time and without Larry also wouldn't have won jack. He wasn't the man. Good player, not in the conversation with Stockton or Magic or Isaiah.

Don't misquote me. I said that when needed Stockton COULD step in and carry the team if needed. Rondo on the other hand thinks it is his ROLE to carry us and that we are better when he does it. Not true, but he thinks that.

I said that Stockton was the best TRUE pg of all time. The stats show that. The most important stats of a PG are assists and steals. No one else is close.

  Don't misquote yourself. You said a true pg doesn't take over and carry teams. Are you claiming that CP isn't a true pg? If not, why not?

  You also said Stockton had "tons of games" when he took over and scored big. Now you're trying to back away from that obviously false claim.

  Lastly, the stats don't show that Stockton was the best "true pg" (a term meant to exclude the obviously better pg Magic) ever, it shows he was in the conversation. His average game might have been better than any other pg ever, but his best play didn't measure up to the best play of other top point guards.

I know you just love to argue BBALL TIM and I was tempted to go through all his games to show you in addition to the 7 you claim he had in playoff games. Since he played in over 1500 games it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say the guy had TONS of games where he took over and carried the team. Then I realized one thing. Why am I arguing about something so stupid. The guy is a Hall of Famer, Career leader by far all time in assists and steals. For you to say he just had a lot of AVERAGE games through his career is so absurd it isn't even worth continuing. You're arguing the sky isn't blue. Just to argue... Go sell that nonsense somewhere else.

[Lightskinsmurf]

Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

While I personally would take Bill RUssell 100/100 when starting a new team, I said that mostly to make the point that just because YOU think that is the case does not make it true.

This is a very subjective topic and NO ONE can ever be right, because ther IS no definate answer.

You are always right though, so my opinion is clearly a joke, because it is not yours.

You could not prove that Russell was NOT the greatest of all time, no matter how much you "know" otherwise.

Are you always so arrogant, or is it just on the net?

Whoa whoa whoa, I really thought it was a joke, sheesh. Even tho I think picking russell over jordan is borderline insanity I still respect your opinion big guy.

[CelticsFan9]

Personally, I'd take Jordan over Russell because I feel like he'd dominate the way he did in ANY  era.

Russell, in my opinion, would not have been as great mainly due to his size.  Don't get me wrong, he'd still be a great defender, but I think being a 6'9" center, even in today's league, would be a bit of a disadvantage.

However, having watched multiple Russell clips (I wasn't alive when he was playing), if any player could have found a way to adapt, despite going against all odds, it'd be him.

That's one of the great things about both Jordan and Russell: they had that same scary competitiveness that allowed them to ruthlessly dominate and win.

If I were to create a list of the greatest players ever, these two would be the first names I'd write down.

[wayupnorth]

Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

While I personally would take Bill RUssell 100/100 when starting a new team, I said that mostly to make the point that just because YOU think that is the case does not make it true.

This is a very subjective topic and NO ONE can ever be right, because ther IS no definate answer.

You are always right though, so my opinion is clearly a joke, because it is not yours.

You could not prove that Russell was NOT the greatest of all time, no matter how much you "know" otherwise.

Are you always so arrogant, or is it just on the net?

Whoa whoa whoa, I really thought it was a joke, sheesh. Even tho I think picking russell over jordan is borderline insanity I still respect your opinion big guy.

Borderline insanity? A guy who was so heady about the game, he won two championships as a player coach. I would bet anything Jordan couldn't do that, because he used fear to motivate his teammates.

Ever read the book, "The Jordan Rules"?

Do you think Bill Russell every froze out his teammates like Jordan would?

Jordan is a petulant whiner, who got away with so many things. Like the famous buzzer beater against the Jazz, CLEAR push off.

He does not have half the heart, desire, intelligence or mettle that Russell had.

11>6. This was in an era with Petit, Baylor, Wilt, West, etc.

LOL at the person who said that Stockton and Malone would have won at least three championships if "Jordan wasn't the best player ever".

They only made the finals, twice and they are in a different conference. What, did they get scared of having to play Jordan in the finals, so they just didn't go?

Wow.

[wayupnorth]

Personally, I'd take Jordan over Russell because I feel like he'd dominate the way he did in ANY  era.

Russell, in my opinion, would not have been as great mainly due to his size.  Don't get me wrong, he'd still be a great defender, but I think being a 6'9" center, even in today's league, would be a bit of a disadvantage.

However, having watched multiple Russell clips (I wasn't alive when he was playing), if any player could have found a way to adapt, despite going against all odds, it'd be him.

That's one of the great things about both Jordan and Russell: they had that same scary competitiveness that allowed them to ruthlessly dominate and win.

If I were to create a list of the greatest players ever, these two would be the first names I'd write down.

Ben Wallace says whats up.

[LarBrd33]

Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

  If Durant wasn't in the league (or never wins a title) then LeBron would be similar to MJ, struggling to win in the postseason until Kobe/KG/Shaq/TD were past their prime and having great success when there's no superstars to challenge him.

So I guess the crux of your argument is that Jordan wouldn't have won as many titles had his prime overlapped with Magic and Bird's prime.   You know, I'm actually not going to disagree with you there man.  BUt I tell you what... Magic and bird wouldn't have won as many titles had their prime overlapped with the mid-90s Bulls... so it goes both ways.

I probably take 86 Celtics over 96 Bulls, but it would be a [dang] good match-up.  And I pity any team that had to face off against Shaq at his apex. 

I think LeBron hasn't yet reached his top level.  He could theoretically rattle off a string of titles here.  He's got another 8 or so years to be a contender.  So I can't yet really debate where LeBron's greatest team ranks against the Kobe/Shaq/Duncan/KG era.  I think that's my point... you can't compare 1985 Jordan's Bulls to 1985 Bird's Celtics and leave at that.  You can't compare 2008 LeBron's Cavs to 2008 KG's Celtics and leave it at that.  1985 wasn't the best of Jordan and we've yet to see the best of LeBron James. 

[BballTim]

Although they were mentioned in here as a side note, there isn't enough credit given to Stockton and Malone in these comments about Jordan not facing greats. I am assuming most were not old enough to have seen them actually playing, but they were both arguably (not necessarily actually, but arguably) the greatest players of all time at their position. I think John Stockton is without a doubt the greatest "true" point guard in NBA history. Will likely be the Assist leader and Steals leader for good. He is so far in front. Karl Malone was also amazing. Second all time in Points. (would have likely caught Kareem had he not gone to LA to chase a title) 6th all time in rebounds. 10th all time in steals.

To see this thread talking about Jordan not having any competition during his years... Had Jordan not been the greatest player of all time, Stockton and Malone would likely have had 3 rings on their fingers.

  Stockton and Malone only made it to the finals twice that I can recall. I saw Stockton play and there's no possible way he was close to as good as Magic. I personally thought that Stockton was somewhat overrated. He was very good and very consistent but he didn't really have that extra gear that great players have.

Overrated?! Are you kidding?! I am sure you must not have been paying attention. Here are the facts:

19,711 career pts. as a non-scoring PG (2000 shy of Larry Bird), 15,806 assists (#1 all time and HALF AGAIN as many as Magic's 10k) 3265 steals (almost TWICE as many as Magic's 1724) 51.5% career FG % (better than Magic's) , 83% career FT%.

His numbers dwarf Magic's. I have never considered Magic a true PG. He was an everything player and brought the ball up the floor. Yes he was one of the greatest BASKETBALL players of all time. No doubting that. He wasn't though really a true PG. Stockton was the prototypical PG that was so far away from being "overrated" that it isn't even funny. How anyone could call him overrated is unthinkable.

  Yes, Stockton played at a very high level for a very long time and his career stats are very impressive. I don't dispute that at all. I just don't think he was a "take over a game and carry your team" kind of player.

A true PG doesn't "take over a game and carry your team". He leads the team and gets players with the ball in their hands in the right spots so they can be effective. (assist leader). He puts pressure on the opponents ball handler to make it more difficult for them to score. (steals leader). Take over PG's don't win. Since Rondo has been a "take over" PG we haven't won anything.

  First of all we've won as much with Rondo as a "take over" pg as Stockton ever did in his career. Secondly if you think a true point guard never takes over a game and carries his team then you must not know much at all about Isiah Thomas.

First of all, we are a better team with Rondo sitting on the bench. It's a fact. This team would be legit contenders with Stockton on the floor instead of Rondo.

  If it's a fact that we're a better team without Rondo then barring major injury we'll be playing in the finals. Get back to me when that happens.

I watched Isaiah very closely and he is the one exception to the rule, however I would also argue that they won 2 championships with him only because of their nasty defense, not his scoring prowess.

  If you don't think Isiah was a great scorer then you didn't watch him closely. He's also far from the one exception to the rule. KJ, CP3, Tiny were also great scorers and that's without giving it a moment's thought.

The other thought is that if you don't think that Stockton ever took over and carried them in games then you clearly didn't watch Stockton. Just ask Barkley about him putting him out of the series when he was with Houston. Stockton had tons of games where he stepped in and scored big. You clearly were "watching" him in the box scores versus seeing him play much.

  Okay, so we've gone from "good point guards don't take over and carry teams" to "Stockton took over games and carried teams". And as for Stockton scoring big, he had 7 career playoff games where he scored 25 or more points. Rondo has 8.

KJ and CP3 haven't won jack. Tiny isn't in ANYONE'S argument as one of the great PG's of all time and without Larry also wouldn't have won jack. He wasn't the man. Good player, not in the conversation with Stockton or Magic or Isaiah.

Don't misquote me. I said that when needed Stockton COULD step in and carry the team if needed. Rondo on the other hand thinks it is his ROLE to carry us and that we are better when he does it. Not true, but he thinks that.

I said that Stockton was the best TRUE pg of all time. The stats show that. The most important stats of a PG are assists and steals. No one else is close.

  Don't misquote yourself. You said a true pg doesn't take over and carry teams. Are you claiming that CP isn't a true pg? If not, why not?

  You also said Stockton had "tons of games" when he took over and scored big. Now you're trying to back away from that obviously false claim.

  Lastly, the stats don't show that Stockton was the best "true pg" (a term meant to exclude the obviously better pg Magic) ever, it shows he was in the conversation. His average game might have been better than any other pg ever, but his best play didn't measure up to the best play of other top point guards.

I know you just love to argue BBALL TIM and I was tempted to go through all his games to show you in addition to the 7 you claim he had in playoff games. Since he played in over 1500 games it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say the guy had TONS of games where he took over and carried the team. Then I realized one thing. Why am I arguing about something so stupid. The guy is a Hall of Famer, Career leader by far all time in assists and steals. For you to say he just had a lot of AVERAGE games through his career is so absurd it isn't even worth continuing. You're arguing the sky isn't blue. Just to argue... Go sell that nonsense somewhere else.

  No, you misunderstood my comment. I was saying that an average game for Stockton might be better than the average game for any other point guard. In other words, a typical game from Stockton would be better than a typical game from Thomas. I wasn't saying that Stockton was a pedestrian player. But I was also pointing out that a great game (or part of a game) was better than a great game (or part of a game) for Stockton.

[LarBrd33]

Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell is the greatest basketball player of all time. Period.

He's a smart guy, he was successful in college, olympics and won as a rookie. Yep, he had HOF teammates, but he made them better because he was the most intelligent guy on court. He was able to contain the most dominant basketball player of all time, prime Wilt Chamberlain. Bill and Wilt were world-class athletes, just as good if not better than MJ.

You're right comparing MJ to LeBron, two overhyped stars who are great players, both into top-10 all-time discussion. LeBron has a more complete game, but Jordan was a better defender. Both were good enough to get media attention in their early years, yet not good enough to beat their rivals. The difference is Jordan had to deal with Celtics/Lakers/Pistons, while the only great teams LeBron had to deal with is the Spurs and the Celtics. Great teams, still not good enough to compare to those 80s teams.

Both are very lucky. Jordan was lucky because of Bird/McHale/Bias/Reggie for the Celtics, Magic for the Lakers, Sampson for the Rockets had unlucky career endings, and the Pistons declined after their back-to-back titles.  LBJ is lucky because of KG's knee injury (Celtics 3-peat without that), and the Spurs are too old.

And both have taken advantage of ESPN/Nike/Stern new era of NBA. Star calls, media attention and endorsements. But Jordan was able to win a lot, while LeBron still has to prove he can win multiple titles.

Larry Bird was a comparable level to MJ, only because of MJ's defense and athleticism which helped him to be a great player. They share the All-time greats 2nd tier with Magic and Kareem, but they're half a step below Wilt (who had to deal with the Celtics) and two and a half steps below Bill Russell, absolute GOAT on and off the court, incredible player, great coach and huge personality.

I wish the Celtics get Larry Legend to work for them, he's also a great basketball mind, like Russell and unlike Jordan, who has shown little basketball knowledge in his time in Washington and Charlotte. Maybe Pippen was terribly underrated, because he was a better defender but all the credit went always to MJ.

Of course, if Bias can play for the 1987 Celtics, maybe McHale can rest to heal his foot, taking some weight off Larry's back, and the 1987-1988 Celtics with healthy McHale and Bird start a multiple title streak with Bias and Reggie entering their prime as champions. Then MJ (or the Detroit Pistons) is not another guy, but maybe a one time champion, maybe two.

Another interesting what if is, if Bill Russell had been drafted in the 80s, the kids would wear Air Russells. Of course, that means the 60s Celtics would've been "another team", so I'm fine with Air Jordans or Air LeBrons.

It's a slippery slope and I'm not touching it, because Russell is sacred here.  It would ping-pong back and forth... Russell being the same size of Josh Smith... how would Russell compete with someone the same size of Shaq?  But then someone would point out that Wilt wasn't all that smaller than Shaq either.  And then someone will bring up how had Kareem played in Russell's day it would have been a different story... and then someone will argue that Russell was the greatest winner of all time and would have found a way.

So I'll just say Jordan was the best basketball player of the past 40 years.  He wasn't overrated.  Dude was dominant.  If it makes you feel better, I'll say he's the most dominant guard of all time... since big men traditionally win titles in this league.

Fwiw, Jordan couldn't do it alone, though.  And I think his experiences helped shape how dominant he ultimately became.  If I was to go back in time and had the #1 pick the 1984 draft... I still probably take Hakeem.  Hakeem was guaranteed success.  Jordan needed the right set of circumstances to reach the basketball-god level he ultimately reached.  I'd take Jordan in his prime over just about anyone, though.  He was unreal.  Just unreal. 

[BballTim]

Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

[BballTim]

Ainge played with Bird, played against Jordan, and is the greatest GM in the league according to many (including BBallTim, if I remember correctly).

  Cool. My own stalker. Thanks for caring.

[wayupnorth]

Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

lol

tp