Author Topic: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan  (Read 41628 times)

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Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #60 on: March 05, 2013, 04:27:00 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Although they were mentioned in here as a side note, there isn't enough credit given to Stockton and Malone in these comments about Jordan not facing greats. I am assuming most were not old enough to have seen them actually playing, but they were both arguably (not necessarily actually, but arguably) the greatest players of all time at their position. I think John Stockton is without a doubt the greatest "true" point guard in NBA history. Will likely be the Assist leader and Steals leader for good. He is so far in front. Karl Malone was also amazing. Second all time in Points. (would have likely caught Kareem had he not gone to LA to chase a title) 6th all time in rebounds. 10th all time in steals.

To see this thread talking about Jordan not having any competition during his years... Had Jordan not been the greatest player of all time, Stockton and Malone would likely have had 3 rings on their fingers.

  Stockton and Malone only made it to the finals twice that I can recall. I saw Stockton play and there's no possible way he was close to as good as Magic. I personally thought that Stockton was somewhat overrated. He was very good and very consistent but he didn't really have that extra gear that great players have.
Overrated?! Are you kidding?! I am sure you must not have been paying attention. Here are the facts:

19,711 career pts. as a non-scoring PG (2000 shy of Larry Bird), 15,806 assists (#1 all time and HALF AGAIN as many as Magic's 10k) 3265 steals (almost TWICE as many as Magic's 1724) 51.5% career FG % (better than Magic's) , 83% career FT%.

His numbers dwarf Magic's. I have never considered Magic a true PG. He was an everything player and brought the ball up the floor. Yes he was one of the greatest BASKETBALL players of all time. No doubting that. He wasn't though really a true PG. Stockton was the prototypical PG that was so far away from being "overrated" that it isn't even funny. How anyone could call him overrated is unthinkable.

  Yes, Stockton played at a very high level for a very long time and his career stats are very impressive. I don't dispute that at all. I just don't think he was a "take over a game and carry your team" kind of player.

A true PG doesn't "take over a game and carry your team". He leads the team and gets players with the ball in their hands in the right spots so they can be effective. (assist leader). He puts pressure on the opponents ball handler to make it more difficult for them to score. (steals leader). Take over PG's don't win. Since Rondo has been a "take over" PG we haven't won anything.

  First of all we've won as much with Rondo as a "take over" pg as Stockton ever did in his career. Secondly if you think a true point guard never takes over a game and carries his team then you must not know much at all about Isiah Thomas.

First of all, we are a better team with Rondo sitting on the bench. It's a fact. This team would be legit contenders with Stockton on the floor instead of Rondo.

  If it's a fact that we're a better team without Rondo then barring major injury we'll be playing in the finals. Get back to me when that happens.

I watched Isaiah very closely and he is the one exception to the rule, however I would also argue that they won 2 championships with him only because of their nasty defense, not his scoring prowess.

  If you don't think Isiah was a great scorer then you didn't watch him closely. He's also far from the one exception to the rule. KJ, CP3, Tiny were also great scorers and that's without giving it a moment's thought.

The other thought is that if you don't think that Stockton ever took over and carried them in games then you clearly didn't watch Stockton. Just ask Barkley about him putting him out of the series when he was with Houston. Stockton had tons of games where he stepped in and scored big. You clearly were "watching" him in the box scores versus seeing him play much.

  Okay, so we've gone from "good point guards don't take over and carry teams" to "Stockton took over games and carried teams". And as for Stockton scoring big, he had 7 career playoff games where he scored 25 or more points. Rondo has 8.
 

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #61 on: March 05, 2013, 04:38:12 PM »

Offline BballTim

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That's always been my argument.  You list the top 10 players of all time, and Jordan is the only who was in his prime during the '90s.  Magic and Larry were on their way out and the likes of Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe (if you wanted to include them) were too young. 

I suppose you could bring Hakeem into the discussion, but he never actually faced Jordan in a playoff game...ever. 

I mean how many titles would Larry Bird have won if there was no Magic to play against?  Or how many titles would Wilt have won if Russell played in a different era? 

So I think there's really a good argument to be made about Jordan being overrated.  He's still a top 10 player and potentially the greatest ever, but if he played 10 years earlier or 10 years later, I'm not sure he'd stand out in people's minds as much as he does now.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Jordan competed directly with Barkely, Ewing, Dumars, Thomas, Rice and Drexler, most of them in their prime. I'm not saying he had an equal in that list but come on. Those guys are all HoFers and most first-ballot.

  I remember Jordan competing against Thomas in his prime, the results didn't go the Bulls way.

  I was looking at your list trying to figure out who you meant when you mis-typed "Rice". Then it dawned on me that you actually meant to type that. Egads.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #62 on: March 05, 2013, 04:46:40 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

  If Durant wasn't in the league (or never wins a title) then LeBron would be similar to MJ, struggling to win in the postseason until Kobe/KG/Shaq/TD were past their prime and having great success when there's no superstars to challenge him.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #63 on: March 05, 2013, 04:58:37 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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Although they were mentioned in here as a side note, there isn't enough credit given to Stockton and Malone in these comments about Jordan not facing greats. I am assuming most were not old enough to have seen them actually playing, but they were both arguably (not necessarily actually, but arguably) the greatest players of all time at their position. I think John Stockton is without a doubt the greatest "true" point guard in NBA history. Will likely be the Assist leader and Steals leader for good. He is so far in front. Karl Malone was also amazing. Second all time in Points. (would have likely caught Kareem had he not gone to LA to chase a title) 6th all time in rebounds. 10th all time in steals.

To see this thread talking about Jordan not having any competition during his years... Had Jordan not been the greatest player of all time, Stockton and Malone would likely have had 3 rings on their fingers.

  Stockton and Malone only made it to the finals twice that I can recall. I saw Stockton play and there's no possible way he was close to as good as Magic. I personally thought that Stockton was somewhat overrated. He was very good and very consistent but he didn't really have that extra gear that great players have.
Overrated?! Are you kidding?! I am sure you must not have been paying attention. Here are the facts:

19,711 career pts. as a non-scoring PG (2000 shy of Larry Bird), 15,806 assists (#1 all time and HALF AGAIN as many as Magic's 10k) 3265 steals (almost TWICE as many as Magic's 1724) 51.5% career FG % (better than Magic's) , 83% career FT%.

His numbers dwarf Magic's. I have never considered Magic a true PG. He was an everything player and brought the ball up the floor. Yes he was one of the greatest BASKETBALL players of all time. No doubting that. He wasn't though really a true PG. Stockton was the prototypical PG that was so far away from being "overrated" that it isn't even funny. How anyone could call him overrated is unthinkable.

  Yes, Stockton played at a very high level for a very long time and his career stats are very impressive. I don't dispute that at all. I just don't think he was a "take over a game and carry your team" kind of player.

A true PG doesn't "take over a game and carry your team". He leads the team and gets players with the ball in their hands in the right spots so they can be effective. (assist leader). He puts pressure on the opponents ball handler to make it more difficult for them to score. (steals leader). Take over PG's don't win. Since Rondo has been a "take over" PG we haven't won anything.

  First of all we've won as much with Rondo as a "take over" pg as Stockton ever did in his career. Secondly if you think a true point guard never takes over a game and carries his team then you must not know much at all about Isiah Thomas.

First of all, we are a better team with Rondo sitting on the bench. It's a fact. This team would be legit contenders with Stockton on the floor instead of Rondo.

  If it's a fact that we're a better team without Rondo then barring major injury we'll be playing in the finals. Get back to me when that happens.

I watched Isaiah very closely and he is the one exception to the rule, however I would also argue that they won 2 championships with him only because of their nasty defense, not his scoring prowess.

  If you don't think Isiah was a great scorer then you didn't watch him closely. He's also far from the one exception to the rule. KJ, CP3, Tiny were also great scorers and that's without giving it a moment's thought.

The other thought is that if you don't think that Stockton ever took over and carried them in games then you clearly didn't watch Stockton. Just ask Barkley about him putting him out of the series when he was with Houston. Stockton had tons of games where he stepped in and scored big. You clearly were "watching" him in the box scores versus seeing him play much.

  Okay, so we've gone from "good point guards don't take over and carry teams" to "Stockton took over games and carried teams". And as for Stockton scoring big, he had 7 career playoff games where he scored 25 or more points. Rondo has 8.

KJ and CP3 haven't won jack. Tiny isn't in ANYONE'S argument as one of the great PG's of all time and without Larry also wouldn't have won jack. He wasn't the man. Good player, not in the conversation with Stockton or Magic or Isaiah.

Don't misquote me. I said that when needed Stockton COULD step in and carry the team if needed. Rondo on the other hand thinks it is his ROLE to carry us and that we are better when he does it. Not true, but he thinks that.

I said that Stockton was the best TRUE pg of all time. The stats show that. The most important stats of a PG are assists and steals. No one else is close.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #64 on: March 05, 2013, 05:00:04 PM »

Offline bdm860

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That's always been my argument.  You list the top 10 players of all time, and Jordan is the only who was in his prime during the '90s.  Magic and Larry were on their way out and the likes of Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe (if you wanted to include them) were too young. 

I suppose you could bring Hakeem into the discussion, but he never actually faced Jordan in a playoff game...ever. 

I mean how many titles would Larry Bird have won if there was no Magic to play against?  Or how many titles would Wilt have won if Russell played in a different era? 

So I think there's really a good argument to be made about Jordan being overrated.  He's still a top 10 player and potentially the greatest ever, but if he played 10 years earlier or 10 years later, I'm not sure he'd stand out in people's minds as much as he does now.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Jordan competed directly with Barkely, Ewing, Dumars, Thomas, Rice and Drexler, most of them in their prime. I'm not saying he had an equal in that list but come on. Those guys are all HoFers and most first-ballot.

  I remember Jordan competing against Thomas in his prime, the results didn't go the Bulls way.

  I was looking at your list trying to figure out who you meant when you mis-typed "Rice". Then it dawned on me that you actually meant to type that. Egads.
I used to like this argument, "what top 10 player did Jordan go against"?

But the more I thought about it and looked into it, I think it's kind of crap.

Jordan beat Magic in the Finals as many times as Bird did.

Jordan beat a 31 year old Magic, who was All-NBA first team, had a PER of 25.1, on a Lakers team that had 58 wins.  Let’s not act like Magic wasn’t in his prime then.  And he beat the reigning Finals MVP, a 29 year old Isiah Thomas to get to Magic’s Lakers

How many top 10 players were so far out of their prime at 29 and 31?

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Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #65 on: March 05, 2013, 05:25:55 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Although they were mentioned in here as a side note, there isn't enough credit given to Stockton and Malone in these comments about Jordan not facing greats. I am assuming most were not old enough to have seen them actually playing, but they were both arguably (not necessarily actually, but arguably) the greatest players of all time at their position. I think John Stockton is without a doubt the greatest "true" point guard in NBA history. Will likely be the Assist leader and Steals leader for good. He is so far in front. Karl Malone was also amazing. Second all time in Points. (would have likely caught Kareem had he not gone to LA to chase a title) 6th all time in rebounds. 10th all time in steals.

To see this thread talking about Jordan not having any competition during his years... Had Jordan not been the greatest player of all time, Stockton and Malone would likely have had 3 rings on their fingers.

  Stockton and Malone only made it to the finals twice that I can recall. I saw Stockton play and there's no possible way he was close to as good as Magic. I personally thought that Stockton was somewhat overrated. He was very good and very consistent but he didn't really have that extra gear that great players have.
Overrated?! Are you kidding?! I am sure you must not have been paying attention. Here are the facts:

19,711 career pts. as a non-scoring PG (2000 shy of Larry Bird), 15,806 assists (#1 all time and HALF AGAIN as many as Magic's 10k) 3265 steals (almost TWICE as many as Magic's 1724) 51.5% career FG % (better than Magic's) , 83% career FT%.

His numbers dwarf Magic's. I have never considered Magic a true PG. He was an everything player and brought the ball up the floor. Yes he was one of the greatest BASKETBALL players of all time. No doubting that. He wasn't though really a true PG. Stockton was the prototypical PG that was so far away from being "overrated" that it isn't even funny. How anyone could call him overrated is unthinkable.

  Yes, Stockton played at a very high level for a very long time and his career stats are very impressive. I don't dispute that at all. I just don't think he was a "take over a game and carry your team" kind of player.

A true PG doesn't "take over a game and carry your team". He leads the team and gets players with the ball in their hands in the right spots so they can be effective. (assist leader). He puts pressure on the opponents ball handler to make it more difficult for them to score. (steals leader). Take over PG's don't win. Since Rondo has been a "take over" PG we haven't won anything.

  First of all we've won as much with Rondo as a "take over" pg as Stockton ever did in his career. Secondly if you think a true point guard never takes over a game and carries his team then you must not know much at all about Isiah Thomas.

First of all, we are a better team with Rondo sitting on the bench. It's a fact. This team would be legit contenders with Stockton on the floor instead of Rondo.

  If it's a fact that we're a better team without Rondo then barring major injury we'll be playing in the finals. Get back to me when that happens.

I watched Isaiah very closely and he is the one exception to the rule, however I would also argue that they won 2 championships with him only because of their nasty defense, not his scoring prowess.

  If you don't think Isiah was a great scorer then you didn't watch him closely. He's also far from the one exception to the rule. KJ, CP3, Tiny were also great scorers and that's without giving it a moment's thought.

The other thought is that if you don't think that Stockton ever took over and carried them in games then you clearly didn't watch Stockton. Just ask Barkley about him putting him out of the series when he was with Houston. Stockton had tons of games where he stepped in and scored big. You clearly were "watching" him in the box scores versus seeing him play much.

  Okay, so we've gone from "good point guards don't take over and carry teams" to "Stockton took over games and carried teams". And as for Stockton scoring big, he had 7 career playoff games where he scored 25 or more points. Rondo has 8.

KJ and CP3 haven't won jack. Tiny isn't in ANYONE'S argument as one of the great PG's of all time and without Larry also wouldn't have won jack. He wasn't the man. Good player, not in the conversation with Stockton or Magic or Isaiah.

Don't misquote me. I said that when needed Stockton COULD step in and carry the team if needed. Rondo on the other hand thinks it is his ROLE to carry us and that we are better when he does it. Not true, but he thinks that.

I said that Stockton was the best TRUE pg of all time. The stats show that. The most important stats of a PG are assists and steals. No one else is close.

  Don't misquote yourself. You said a true pg doesn't take over and carry teams. Are you claiming that CP isn't a true pg? If not, why not?

  You also said Stockton had "tons of games" when he took over and scored big. Now you're trying to back away from that obviously false claim.

  Lastly, the stats don't show that Stockton was the best "true pg" (a term meant to exclude the obviously better pg Magic) ever, it shows he was in the conversation. His average game might have been better than any other pg ever, but his best play didn't measure up to the best play of other top point guards.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #66 on: March 05, 2013, 05:38:36 PM »

Offline BballTim

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That's always been my argument.  You list the top 10 players of all time, and Jordan is the only who was in his prime during the '90s.  Magic and Larry were on their way out and the likes of Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe (if you wanted to include them) were too young. 

I suppose you could bring Hakeem into the discussion, but he never actually faced Jordan in a playoff game...ever. 

I mean how many titles would Larry Bird have won if there was no Magic to play against?  Or how many titles would Wilt have won if Russell played in a different era? 

So I think there's really a good argument to be made about Jordan being overrated.  He's still a top 10 player and potentially the greatest ever, but if he played 10 years earlier or 10 years later, I'm not sure he'd stand out in people's minds as much as he does now.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Jordan competed directly with Barkely, Ewing, Dumars, Thomas, Rice and Drexler, most of them in their prime. I'm not saying he had an equal in that list but come on. Those guys are all HoFers and most first-ballot.

  I remember Jordan competing against Thomas in his prime, the results didn't go the Bulls way.

  I was looking at your list trying to figure out who you meant when you mis-typed "Rice". Then it dawned on me that you actually meant to type that. Egads.
I used to like this argument, "what top 10 player did Jordan go against"?

But the more I thought about it and looked into it, I think it's kind of crap.

Jordan beat Magic in the Finals as many times as Bird did.

Jordan beat a 31 year old Magic, who was All-NBA first team, had a PER of 25.1, on a Lakers team that had 58 wins.  Let’s not act like Magic wasn’t in his prime then.  And he beat the reigning Finals MVP, a 29 year old Isiah Thomas to get to Magic’s Lakers

How many top 10 players were so far out of their prime at 29 and 31?

  Isiah's prime was cut short due to injuries. I don't think he played much past 30. I'll give you Magic although that Lakers team was nowhere near the team it was from 84-89.

  Edit: In general I don't think of the discussion in terms of MJ not going against any great player but that I don't think he faced any great teams. In the 80s the Celts, Lakers and Pistons were all great teams and all of them went to the finals at least 3 straight years. Aside from the Jazz (who I wasn't overly impressed with) the teams the Bulls faced were all one and dones.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 06:06:35 PM by BballTim »

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #67 on: March 05, 2013, 06:00:31 PM »

Offline aporel#18

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Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell is the greatest basketball player of all time. Period.

He's a smart guy, he was successful in college, olympics and won as a rookie. Yep, he had HOF teammates, but he made them better because he was the most intelligent guy on court. He was able to contain the most dominant basketball player of all time, prime Wilt Chamberlain. Bill and Wilt were world-class athletes, just as good if not better than MJ.

You're right comparing MJ to LeBron, two overhyped stars who are great players, both into top-10 all-time discussion. LeBron has a more complete game, but Jordan was a better defender. Both were good enough to get media attention in their early years, yet not good enough to beat their rivals. The difference is Jordan had to deal with Celtics/Lakers/Pistons, while the only great teams LeBron had to deal with is the Spurs and the Celtics. Great teams, still not good enough to compare to those 80s teams.

Both are very lucky. Jordan was lucky because of Bird/McHale/Bias/Reggie for the Celtics, Magic for the Lakers, Sampson for the Rockets had unlucky career endings, and the Pistons declined after their back-to-back titles.  LBJ is lucky because of KG's knee injury (Celtics 3-peat without that), and the Spurs are too old.

And both have taken advantage of ESPN/Nike/Stern new era of NBA. Star calls, media attention and endorsements. But Jordan was able to win a lot, while LeBron still has to prove he can win multiple titles.

Larry Bird was a comparable level to MJ, only because of MJ's defense and athleticism which helped him to be a great player. They share the All-time greats 2nd tier with Magic and Kareem, but they're half a step below Wilt (who had to deal with the Celtics) and two and a half steps below Bill Russell, absolute GOAT on and off the court, incredible player, great coach and huge personality.

I wish the Celtics get Larry Legend to work for them, he's also a great basketball mind, like Russell and unlike Jordan, who has shown little basketball knowledge in his time in Washington and Charlotte. Maybe Pippen was terribly underrated, because he was a better defender but all the credit went always to MJ.

Of course, if Bias can play for the 1987 Celtics, maybe McHale can rest to heal his foot, taking some weight off Larry's back, and the 1987-1988 Celtics with healthy McHale and Bird start a multiple title streak with Bias and Reggie entering their prime as champions. Then MJ (or the Detroit Pistons) is not another guy, but maybe a one time champion, maybe two.

Another interesting what if is, if Bill Russell had been drafted in the 80s, the kids would wear Air Russells. Of course, that means the 60s Celtics would've been "another team", so I'm fine with Air Jordans or Air LeBrons.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #68 on: March 05, 2013, 06:06:45 PM »

Offline ronaldo943

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Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Amazingly put.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #69 on: March 05, 2013, 06:09:17 PM »

Offline CelticConcourse

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Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Who knows how many LeBron will win? We can only say 1, at this point in time.
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Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #70 on: March 05, 2013, 06:10:55 PM »

Offline ronaldo943

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Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Who knows how many LeBron will win? We can only say 1, at this point in time.

He said Lebron might go on to win he didnt say Lebron will do it

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #71 on: March 05, 2013, 06:14:57 PM »

Offline CelticConcourse

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Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Who knows how many LeBron will win? We can only say 1, at this point in time.

He said Lebron might go on to win he didnt say Lebron will do it

I agree.
Jeff Green - Top 5 SF

[Kevin Garnett]
"I've always said J. Green is going to be one of the best players to ever play this game"

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #72 on: March 05, 2013, 06:30:24 PM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

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Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Who knows how many LeBron will win? We can only say 1, at this point in time.

Id be shocked if lebron and the heat didn't win multiple titles. Ill say there's no way they don't win at least 2 more. With how good they are plus the refs on their side, they might be [dang] near unstoppable.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #73 on: March 05, 2013, 06:51:00 PM »

Offline wayupnorth

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Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #74 on: March 05, 2013, 06:52:25 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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All this thread is doing is making me miss the Old Days......

Dr. J..Olajuwon and Sampson's Twin Towers...Buck Williams...Sleepy Floyd...Mookie Blaylock....Tree Rollins...;D:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VlM1h5vwyY

Forget Michael and Larry...and LeBron, too, for that matter.

Any man that small that will go after Wayne "Tree" Rollins deserves much love from me.

6'4" 175 pounds vs 7'1" and 235 (Tree HAD to be bigger than that...he looks at LEAST 270-280 in that vid).

Danny Ainge was/is The Man.