Author Topic: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan  (Read 41621 times)

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Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2013, 12:44:50 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Bird made his team mates better, Jordan carried his team mates more than making them better.  He can't touch Larry in rebounds or passing only shooting and scoring

  In no way can Jordan touch Larry in shooting. Scoring yes, defense yes, everything else no.

Wait, so who are you saying is the better overall basketball player?

Rondo, clearly.  Then Bird.  Then Russell.  Then Jordan behind 15 other former Celtics.

  It's nice that your school lets you play on the computers at lunch time.

It's nice that your parents let you keep your Rondo posters on their basement walls.

  Good retort. With your debating skills I'm sure any victory, no matter how small, is worth cherishing.

Well, seeing that your debate skills feature "Home Player X" is better than "Star Player Y", followed by snarky remarks, the bar is set very low.  But thanks.

  No, that's your reading comprehension skills which are apparently directly related to your debating skills. Do you actually have anything to add to this discussion or did you just come here to nip at my heels?

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2013, 12:49:10 PM »

Offline celtsfan84

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Bird made his team mates better, Jordan carried his team mates more than making them better.  He can't touch Larry in rebounds or passing only shooting and scoring

  In no way can Jordan touch Larry in shooting. Scoring yes, defense yes, everything else no.

Wait, so who are you saying is the better overall basketball player?

Rondo, clearly.  Then Bird.  Then Russell.  Then Jordan behind 15 other former Celtics.

  It's nice that your school lets you play on the computers at lunch time.

It's nice that your parents let you keep your Rondo posters on their basement walls.

  Good retort. With your debating skills I'm sure any victory, no matter how small, is worth cherishing.

Well, seeing that your debate skills feature "Home Player X" is better than "Star Player Y", followed by snarky remarks, the bar is set very low.  But thanks.

  No, that's your reading comprehension skills which are apparently directly related to your debating skills. Do you actually have anything to add to this discussion or did you just come here to nip at my heels?

Very mature and hilarious yet again, Tim.

I'll add that maybe you should watch games that aren't Celtics games once in a while.  It is entirely possible that some other franchise might also have good players.

My reading comprehension skills are fine.  I can understand and see through your nonsense quite clearly.  It's a shame, because if you were as smart as you seem to think you are, we'd probably have a cure for all of the world's problems by now.

Have fun with your retort.  I'm sure you'll find a way to get the "last word" as you always do, with something snarky and unfunny.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 12:54:15 PM by celtsfan84 »

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2013, 12:54:30 PM »

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How about the two of you knock it off?  No one here really wants to put up with you nonsense across multiple threads.[/color]


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Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2013, 12:55:59 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Bird made his team mates better, Jordan carried his team mates more than making them better.  He can't touch Larry in rebounds or passing only shooting and scoring

  In no way can Jordan touch Larry in shooting. Scoring yes, defense yes, everything else no.

Wait, so who are you saying is the better overall basketball player?

  To expound on this I'd say that MJ was a significantly superior athlete but Bird held a similar advantage in BBIQ/vision/overall skills. If you compare their careers up to the point where Bird was slowed by injuries and MJ was suspended their achievements were pretty similar. Bird was probably a little older during that time but MJ had 3 years without Magic or Thomas (or Bird) in their primes. Jordan put up somewhat better stats but he was more the focus of his offense while Bird blended in with his teammates and made them better, MJ wouldn't have been able to do that as well. Also, when you consider MJ having better stats look at what happened to the numbers for players like PP/RA/KG or even Kobe when they were teamed with good players.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2013, 01:01:51 PM »

Offline BballTim

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« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 01:08:02 PM by BballTim »

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2013, 01:04:08 PM »

Offline biggs

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I'd put it this way- if Bird had the athletic ability Jordan possessed, he may have been the best of all time.  To me, Jordan was the best because of his creativity, his drive and his athletic ability.  Bird possesses only one two of those traits.  Magic is just a freak and can't be compared to anyone, because despite our boy Terrence Williams, I haven't seen a point guard over 6'5 have a "magic run" in quite some time.
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Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2013, 01:11:09 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I'd put it this way- if Bird had the athletic ability Jordan possessed, he may have been the best of all time.  To me, Jordan was the best because of his creativity, his drive and his athletic ability.  Bird possesses only one two of those traits.  Magic is just a freak and can't be compared to anyone, because despite our boy Terrence Williams, I haven't seen a point guard over 6'5 have a "magic run" in quite some time.

  I'd compare Bird's advantage in creativity and overall basketball skill to MJ's advantage in athletic ability. MJ was a better defender, Bird was clearly better at passing and shooting and rebounding.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2013, 02:09:10 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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Although they were mentioned in here as a side note, there isn't enough credit given to Stockton and Malone in these comments about Jordan not facing greats. I am assuming most were not old enough to have seen them actually playing, but they were both arguably (not necessarily actually, but arguably) the greatest players of all time at their position. I think John Stockton is without a doubt the greatest "true" point guard in NBA history. Will likely be the Assist leader and Steals leader for good. He is so far in front. Karl Malone was also amazing. Second all time in Points. (would have likely caught Kareem had he not gone to LA to chase a title) 6th all time in rebounds. 10th all time in steals.

To see this thread talking about Jordan not having any competition during his years... Had Jordan not been the greatest player of all time, Stockton and Malone would likely have had 3 rings on their fingers.

  Stockton and Malone only made it to the finals twice that I can recall. I saw Stockton play and there's no possible way he was close to as good as Magic. I personally thought that Stockton was somewhat overrated. He was very good and very consistent but he didn't really have that extra gear that great players have.
Overrated?! Are you kidding?! I am sure you must not have been paying attention. Here are the facts:

19,711 career pts. as a non-scoring PG (2000 shy of Larry Bird), 15,806 assists (#1 all time and HALF AGAIN as many as Magic's 10k) 3265 steals (almost TWICE as many as Magic's 1724) 51.5% career FG % (better than Magic's) , 83% career FT%.

His numbers dwarf Magic's. I have never considered Magic a true PG. He was an everything player and brought the ball up the floor. Yes he was one of the greatest BASKETBALL players of all time. No doubting that. He wasn't though really a true PG. Stockton was the prototypical PG that was so far away from being "overrated" that it isn't even funny. How anyone could call him overrated is unthinkable.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2013, 02:34:54 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Although they were mentioned in here as a side note, there isn't enough credit given to Stockton and Malone in these comments about Jordan not facing greats. I am assuming most were not old enough to have seen them actually playing, but they were both arguably (not necessarily actually, but arguably) the greatest players of all time at their position. I think John Stockton is without a doubt the greatest "true" point guard in NBA history. Will likely be the Assist leader and Steals leader for good. He is so far in front. Karl Malone was also amazing. Second all time in Points. (would have likely caught Kareem had he not gone to LA to chase a title) 6th all time in rebounds. 10th all time in steals.

To see this thread talking about Jordan not having any competition during his years... Had Jordan not been the greatest player of all time, Stockton and Malone would likely have had 3 rings on their fingers.

  Stockton and Malone only made it to the finals twice that I can recall. I saw Stockton play and there's no possible way he was close to as good as Magic. I personally thought that Stockton was somewhat overrated. He was very good and very consistent but he didn't really have that extra gear that great players have.
Overrated?! Are you kidding?! I am sure you must not have been paying attention. Here are the facts:

19,711 career pts. as a non-scoring PG (2000 shy of Larry Bird), 15,806 assists (#1 all time and HALF AGAIN as many as Magic's 10k) 3265 steals (almost TWICE as many as Magic's 1724) 51.5% career FG % (better than Magic's) , 83% career FT%.

His numbers dwarf Magic's. I have never considered Magic a true PG. He was an everything player and brought the ball up the floor. Yes he was one of the greatest BASKETBALL players of all time. No doubting that. He wasn't though really a true PG. Stockton was the prototypical PG that was so far away from being "overrated" that it isn't even funny. How anyone could call him overrated is unthinkable.

  Yes, Stockton played at a very high level for a very long time and his career stats are very impressive. I don't dispute that at all. I just don't think he was a "take over a game and carry your team" kind of player.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2013, 03:00:08 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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Although they were mentioned in here as a side note, there isn't enough credit given to Stockton and Malone in these comments about Jordan not facing greats. I am assuming most were not old enough to have seen them actually playing, but they were both arguably (not necessarily actually, but arguably) the greatest players of all time at their position. I think John Stockton is without a doubt the greatest "true" point guard in NBA history. Will likely be the Assist leader and Steals leader for good. He is so far in front. Karl Malone was also amazing. Second all time in Points. (would have likely caught Kareem had he not gone to LA to chase a title) 6th all time in rebounds. 10th all time in steals.

To see this thread talking about Jordan not having any competition during his years... Had Jordan not been the greatest player of all time, Stockton and Malone would likely have had 3 rings on their fingers.

  Stockton and Malone only made it to the finals twice that I can recall. I saw Stockton play and there's no possible way he was close to as good as Magic. I personally thought that Stockton was somewhat overrated. He was very good and very consistent but he didn't really have that extra gear that great players have.
Overrated?! Are you kidding?! I am sure you must not have been paying attention. Here are the facts:

19,711 career pts. as a non-scoring PG (2000 shy of Larry Bird), 15,806 assists (#1 all time and HALF AGAIN as many as Magic's 10k) 3265 steals (almost TWICE as many as Magic's 1724) 51.5% career FG % (better than Magic's) , 83% career FT%.

His numbers dwarf Magic's. I have never considered Magic a true PG. He was an everything player and brought the ball up the floor. Yes he was one of the greatest BASKETBALL players of all time. No doubting that. He wasn't though really a true PG. Stockton was the prototypical PG that was so far away from being "overrated" that it isn't even funny. How anyone could call him overrated is unthinkable.

  Yes, Stockton played at a very high level for a very long time and his career stats are very impressive. I don't dispute that at all. I just don't think he was a "take over a game and carry your team" kind of player.

A true PG doesn't "take over a game and carry your team". He leads the team and gets players with the ball in their hands in the right spots so they can be effective. (assist leader). He puts pressure on the opponents ball handler to make it more difficult for them to score. (steals leader). Take over PG's don't win. Since Rondo has been a "take over" PG we haven't won anything. Stockton made average players look very good due to his ability to put them in the best positions. (see Jeff Hornacek, Bryon Russell, Shandon Anderson) When he needed to he also scored. (Not sure how you dismiss almost 20k pts)

Remember, he doesn't just lead the all time list in Assists and Steals, he dominates it. Second place isn't really even close. It will likely stand forever. Stockton played the PG position the way it ought to be played. All the others that were  "take over" guards were just undersized 2 guards who brought the ball up.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2013, 03:03:25 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Although they were mentioned in here as a side note, there isn't enough credit given to Stockton and Malone in these comments about Jordan not facing greats. I am assuming most were not old enough to have seen them actually playing, but they were both arguably (not necessarily actually, but arguably) the greatest players of all time at their position. I think John Stockton is without a doubt the greatest "true" point guard in NBA history. Will likely be the Assist leader and Steals leader for good. He is so far in front. Karl Malone was also amazing. Second all time in Points. (would have likely caught Kareem had he not gone to LA to chase a title) 6th all time in rebounds. 10th all time in steals.

To see this thread talking about Jordan not having any competition during his years... Had Jordan not been the greatest player of all time, Stockton and Malone would likely have had 3 rings on their fingers.

  Stockton and Malone only made it to the finals twice that I can recall. I saw Stockton play and there's no possible way he was close to as good as Magic. I personally thought that Stockton was somewhat overrated. He was very good and very consistent but he didn't really have that extra gear that great players have.
Overrated?! Are you kidding?! I am sure you must not have been paying attention. Here are the facts:

19,711 career pts. as a non-scoring PG (2000 shy of Larry Bird), 15,806 assists (#1 all time and HALF AGAIN as many as Magic's 10k) 3265 steals (almost TWICE as many as Magic's 1724) 51.5% career FG % (better than Magic's) , 83% career FT%.

His numbers dwarf Magic's. I have never considered Magic a true PG. He was an everything player and brought the ball up the floor. Yes he was one of the greatest BASKETBALL players of all time. No doubting that. He wasn't though really a true PG. Stockton was the prototypical PG that was so far away from being "overrated" that it isn't even funny. How anyone could call him overrated is unthinkable.

  Yes, Stockton played at a very high level for a very long time and his career stats are very impressive. I don't dispute that at all. I just don't think he was a "take over a game and carry your team" kind of player.

A true PG doesn't "take over a game and carry your team". He leads the team and gets players with the ball in their hands in the right spots so they can be effective. (assist leader). He puts pressure on the opponents ball handler to make it more difficult for them to score. (steals leader). Take over PG's don't win. Since Rondo has been a "take over" PG we haven't won anything.

  First of all we've won as much with Rondo as a "take over" pg as Stockton ever did in his career. Secondly if you think a true point guard never takes over a game and carries his team then you must not know much at all about Isiah Thomas.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2013, 03:32:43 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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Although they were mentioned in here as a side note, there isn't enough credit given to Stockton and Malone in these comments about Jordan not facing greats. I am assuming most were not old enough to have seen them actually playing, but they were both arguably (not necessarily actually, but arguably) the greatest players of all time at their position. I think John Stockton is without a doubt the greatest "true" point guard in NBA history. Will likely be the Assist leader and Steals leader for good. He is so far in front. Karl Malone was also amazing. Second all time in Points. (would have likely caught Kareem had he not gone to LA to chase a title) 6th all time in rebounds. 10th all time in steals.

To see this thread talking about Jordan not having any competition during his years... Had Jordan not been the greatest player of all time, Stockton and Malone would likely have had 3 rings on their fingers.

  Stockton and Malone only made it to the finals twice that I can recall. I saw Stockton play and there's no possible way he was close to as good as Magic. I personally thought that Stockton was somewhat overrated. He was very good and very consistent but he didn't really have that extra gear that great players have.
Overrated?! Are you kidding?! I am sure you must not have been paying attention. Here are the facts:

19,711 career pts. as a non-scoring PG (2000 shy of Larry Bird), 15,806 assists (#1 all time and HALF AGAIN as many as Magic's 10k) 3265 steals (almost TWICE as many as Magic's 1724) 51.5% career FG % (better than Magic's) , 83% career FT%.

His numbers dwarf Magic's. I have never considered Magic a true PG. He was an everything player and brought the ball up the floor. Yes he was one of the greatest BASKETBALL players of all time. No doubting that. He wasn't though really a true PG. Stockton was the prototypical PG that was so far away from being "overrated" that it isn't even funny. How anyone could call him overrated is unthinkable.

  Yes, Stockton played at a very high level for a very long time and his career stats are very impressive. I don't dispute that at all. I just don't think he was a "take over a game and carry your team" kind of player.

A true PG doesn't "take over a game and carry your team". He leads the team and gets players with the ball in their hands in the right spots so they can be effective. (assist leader). He puts pressure on the opponents ball handler to make it more difficult for them to score. (steals leader). Take over PG's don't win. Since Rondo has been a "take over" PG we haven't won anything.

  First of all we've won as much with Rondo as a "take over" pg as Stockton ever did in his career. Secondly if you think a true point guard never takes over a game and carries his team then you must not know much at all about Isiah Thomas.

First of all, we are a better team with Rondo sitting on the bench. It's a fact. This team would be legit contenders with Stockton on the floor instead of Rondo.

I watched Isaiah very closely and he is the one exception to the rule, however I would also argue that they won 2 championships with him only because of their nasty defense, not his scoring prowess.

The other thought is that if you don't think that Stockton ever took over and carried them in games then you clearly didn't watch Stockton. Just ask Barkley about him putting him out of the series when he was with Houston. Stockton had tons of games where he stepped in and scored big. You clearly were "watching" him in the box scores versus seeing him play much.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2013, 04:06:19 PM »

Offline dark_lord

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yep. If Jordan had played the bulk of his career during prime healthy Magic/Bird/I Thomas days he would be just another guy


Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #58 on: March 05, 2013, 04:12:29 PM »

Offline CelticConcourse

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yep. If Jordan had played the bulk of his career during prime healthy Magic/Bird/I Thomas days he would be just another guy


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Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #59 on: March 05, 2013, 04:23:19 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.