Author Topic: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan  (Read 41620 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2013, 12:58:57 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

  • NCE
  • Reggie Lewis
  • ***************
  • Posts: 15402
  • Tommy Points: 2785
for reggie lewis we will never know. but if you compare his first 5 years to pierce they are not terribly different in terms of points, rebounds, etc.

pierce was clearly better in those stats, but not dramatically.

so....based solely upon that weak basis, it looks as if lewis would have had a pretty darned good career for himself.

rip 35

Yes, truly.

But oddly enough..Jeff Green reminds me a bit of Reggie...there was even a similar thread/fanpost about this same thing a while back....similar build..long...great potential for defense..same heart condition, I believe - with the exception of Today's Technology perhaps identifying Jeff's condition.

Didn't Reggie and Jeff even attend schools in nearly the same location? Northeastern and Georgetown (Maryland area?)...

Jeff Green has already been key for us defensively vs Carmelo and LeBron....
It was actually Bias who had all the uncanny similarities with Green. Maybe Lewis is connected with another player, though.

Avery Bradley kind of seems to channel the same kind demeanor as Lewis to me.

Good point...even with AB and Lewis demeanor comparison.

Man, if Jeff Green can continue his upward trajectory.....

BOS is due for some good things to happen.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2013, 01:34:20 PM »

Offline Eja117

  • NCE
  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19274
  • Tommy Points: 1254
yep. If Jordan had played the bulk of his career during prime healthy Magic/Bird/I Thomas days he would be just another guy

Just another guy who dropped 63 on the Celtics in a playoff game.
Seems like eja117 was poking fun at how Isiah said that if Bird were black he would be just another guy.  Maybe I'm wrong.
Oh I wish I were that smart

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2013, 01:50:29 AM »

Offline nostar

  • Jayson Tatum
  • Posts: 754
  • Tommy Points: 74
I have no idea what you're talking about. Jordan competed directly with Barkely, Ewing, Dumars, Thomas, Rice and Drexler, most of them in their prime. I'm not saying he had an equal in that list but come on. Those guys are all HoFers and most first-ballot.

Jordan was just better than them. He willed his teams to win through sickness and injury sometimes with little to no help.

The man took 2 years off and then came back to lead his team to the best single season record in NBA history and a title.

Overrated is never a word that should be used to describe Michael Jordan as a player. Ever.

You have no idea what he's talking about?  I think he pretty clearly said it:

The only top 10 player who didn't face other top 10 players in his prime.

First of all that "he didn't play against other top-10 players" argument is bunk. So bunk. That list is different depending on who you ask. Some people don't even put Bill Russell on it. Do you guys think he would be a top-10 all-time player in today's league? Please tell me you see how that argument is bunk. It's just a terrible basis for comparison.

Second, MJ played against Bird and Magic for 6-7 years (about half their careers). Including playoffs he played 52 games with those guys combined. Some of his best statistical seasons came in the late 80s. Those 3 guys are actually remarkably close in age. Larry is only 4 years older than MJ and Magic is only 3 years older. Did Kobe and Shaq play in different eras? How about Cousy and Russell?

I'd agree that Michael never had a storybook rival in the 90s but I'm not willing to say that it was because the talent in the NBA was thin. Barkley, Olajuwon, Robinson, Drexler, Malone, Stockton...those guys are pretty great. Jordan was just better. If you look at just stats he was better than Magic and Bird too. I think if anything those guys would have won less if Michael had any kind of team during their era.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2013, 02:19:32 AM »

Offline wayupnorth

  • NCE
  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1109
  • Tommy Points: 141
I have no idea what you're talking about. Jordan competed directly with Barkely, Ewing, Dumars, Thomas, Rice and Drexler, most of them in their prime. I'm not saying he had an equal in that list but come on. Those guys are all HoFers and most first-ballot.

Jordan was just better than them. He willed his teams to win through sickness and injury sometimes with little to no help.

The man took 2 years off and then came back to lead his team to the best single season record in NBA history and a title.

Overrated is never a word that should be used to describe Michael Jordan as a player. Ever.

You have no idea what he's talking about?  I think he pretty clearly said it:

The only top 10 player who didn't face other top 10 players in his prime.

First of all that "he didn't play against other top-10 players" argument is bunk. So bunk. That list is different depending on who you ask. Some people don't even put Bill Russell on it. Do you guys think he would be a top-10 all-time player in today's league? Please tell me you see how that argument is bunk. It's just a terrible basis for comparison.

Second, MJ played against Bird and Magic for 6-7 years (about half their careers). Including playoffs he played 52 games with those guys combined. Some of his best statistical seasons came in the late 80s. Those 3 guys are actually remarkably close in age. Larry is only 4 years older than MJ and Magic is only 3 years older. Did Kobe and Shaq play in different eras? How about Cousy and Russell?

I'd agree that Michael never had a storybook rival in the 90s but I'm not willing to say that it was because the talent in the NBA was thin. Barkley, Olajuwon, Robinson, Drexler, Malone, Stockton...those guys are pretty great. Jordan was just better. If you look at just stats he was better than Magic and Bird too. I think if anything those guys would have won less if Michael had any kind of team during their era.


Russell would be year in year out DPOY candidate. A very, very rich mans Ben Wallace if you will.

As a C's fan this kills me, but I think if LeBron and MJ switched places, LBJ would have more success then, than MJ would have today.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2013, 02:59:38 AM »

Offline staticcc

  • Jaylen Brown
  • Posts: 518
  • Tommy Points: 38
yep. If Jordan had played the bulk of his career during prime healthy Magic/Bird/I Thomas days he would be just another guy

It can go both ways. Bird and Magic could have ended up not winning a thing if Jordan was in that era.

"The bigger the lie, the more they believe." - Bunk

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2013, 06:57:00 AM »

Offline Mr Green

  • Jrue Holiday
  • Posts: 309
  • Tommy Points: 33
I have no idea what you're talking about. Jordan competed directly with Barkely, Ewing, Dumars, Thomas, Rice and Drexler, most of them in their prime. I'm not saying he had an equal in that list but come on. Those guys are all HoFers and most first-ballot.

Jordan was just better than them. He willed his teams to win through sickness and injury sometimes with little to no help.

The man took 2 years off and then came back to lead his team to the best single season record in NBA history and a title.

Overrated is never a word that should be used to describe Michael Jordan as a player. Ever.

You have no idea what he's talking about?  I think he pretty clearly said it:

The only top 10 player who didn't face other top 10 players in his prime.

First of all that "he didn't play against other top-10 players" argument is bunk. So bunk. That list is different depending on who you ask. Some people don't even put Bill Russell on it. Do you guys think he would be a top-10 all-time player in today's league? Please tell me you see how that argument is bunk. It's just a terrible basis for comparison.

Second, MJ played against Bird and Magic for 6-7 years (about half their careers). Including playoffs he played 52 games with those guys combined. Some of his best statistical seasons came in the late 80s. Those 3 guys are actually remarkably close in age. Larry is only 4 years older than MJ and Magic is only 3 years older. Did Kobe and Shaq play in different eras? How about Cousy and Russell?

I'd agree that Michael never had a storybook rival in the 90s but I'm not willing to say that it was because the talent in the NBA was thin. Barkley, Olajuwon, Robinson, Drexler, Malone, Stockton...those guys are pretty great. Jordan was just better. If you look at just stats he was better than Magic and Bird too. I think if anything those guys would have won less if Michael had any kind of team during their era.


Russell would be year in year out DPOY candidate. A very, very rich mans Ben Wallace if you will.

As a C's fan this kills me, but I think if LeBron and MJ switched places, LBJ would have more success then, than MJ would have today.

LBJ has never had to proove himself against physical defences the likes of Daly's Pistons or Riley's Knicks, while MJ would thrive in the modern era where defender's can't hand check or trash talk.

No one has ever heard the words "Michael Jordan Olympic Bronze Medalist" either.

I don't remember anything like this ever happening to MJ: www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMY6cqd8al0

It's a pity that MJ never faced Len Bias as a pro, they would have been the yin to each other's yang. However, a bigger shame is that MJ's Bulls never contested the NBA Finals against Hakeem's Rockets, that would have been fantastic to watch.

As for the MJ vs Larry argument set out in previous posts, it was a long time ago but I'm pretty certain that MJ never won a playoff game against Larry. MJ's Bulls were swept twice by the Cs. I guess it comes down to whether you have a personal preference for MJ's athleticism or Larry's fundamentals. I'm a meat and potato guy, which is why I have a photo of Larry in my office.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 07:12:44 AM by Mr Green »

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2013, 08:17:52 AM »

Offline slamtheking

  • NCE
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31869
  • Tommy Points: 10047
seems to me the debate on Jordan's greatness coincides with when someone 'came of age' in terms of watching the NBA.  From what I've noticed, the vast bulk of the people who were around at least long enough to have seen all of Bird and Magic's careers have stated in various forums that Bird and Magic are superior to Jordan (myself included). 

People who came of age in Bird/Magic's decline and Jordan's ascension (or later) feel Jordan is superior -- typically backing that viewpoint up with either stats, athleticism or championships.  I don't agree that any of those are valid arguments but that's me.

Anyone old enough to have seen Russell and Wilt, have been pretty steadfast that Russell is the best ever (I wish I was in that group that had seen him).

IMHO, I'd have to agree that Jordan is truly one of the all-time greats but I don't think he's the best ever.  If I was picking players to build the best team ever, my selections would go Russell, Wilt, Bird, Magic and possibly Oscar Robertson before I picked Jordan. 

I'm not knocking Jordan's accomplishments but let's be honest about his competition -- he did not have any one of the other top players playing in his era (in their prime).  I don't think he wins 6 titles if he plays 10 years sooner or later.  He had the 'luxury' of playing in an era where a single great player could put a team on his back and practically win a title by himself. 

Russell couldn't beat Wilt without the other great players on his team.  Wilt couldn't beat Russell even with HOF'ers on his teams.  Same for Bird and Magic -- they both needed a lot of top level talent on their teams to beat each other.  Who'd Jordan need to beat the others--an overrated Scottie Pippen? 

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2013, 09:08:49 AM »

Offline Celtics17

  • Jayson Tatum
  • Posts: 873
  • Tommy Points: 108
Scottie Pippen, overrated? Wow, Pippen had to be on of the most underrated players I ever saw play. He was also the only player in the league for many seasons who could have shut down Jordan.

I think it's not the individual talent on the 80's teams that makes them so much better it's the overall talent. To say that Ewing, Malone, Barkely were not top level players in the 90's is hogwash. But, their teams were not all=time top level teams like the Celts and Lackers of the 80's. The era of the 80's had the American baby-boom generation still in youth however by the mid 90's the talent pool of these same boomers was significantly reduced.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2013, 09:55:33 AM »

Offline Mr Green

  • Jrue Holiday
  • Posts: 309
  • Tommy Points: 33
Yes, Scottie Pippen was a great player, however it's difficult to accept that he achieved anything of significance without the opportunity of riding the coat tails of Michael Jordan so to speak. Pippen couldn't be the man in 1993/94 or 1994/95 plus his cupboard is noticably bare post-1997/98. I would suggets that being able to practice day in and day out in scrimmages against MJ was the cornerstone of Pippen's success.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2013, 10:09:14 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

  • NCE
  • Cedric Maxwell
  • **************
  • Posts: 14061
  • Tommy Points: 1239
Sports greatness ebbs and flows with the collective memory of the fans. Part of the reason why Bill Russell is still considered one of the greatest players ever (if not the GOAT) is because, even if you never saw him play--a statement that covers most NBA fans, even those old enough to be paying attention in the 60's--you can still say "most rings."

Jordan was the foremost NBA superstar at the dawn of the new age of information--when television, newspapers, and (later) the internet were first able to provide an insane amount of coverage on a given athlete. So, if you were born in, say, 1986, and you were in to basketball, you grew up watching Jordan and grew up with the internet, where all your childhood memories can now be revisited at any keyboard. That's a huge cultural adjustment that simply didn't exist for fans of Magic, Bird, Russell, etc.


Was Jordan the best player ever? Maybe. Did was he the best player when the confluence of media and sports marketing created a behemoth of a public figure? Definitely.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2013, 10:37:55 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

  • NCE
  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17914
  • Tommy Points: 1294
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svHk8Zntc5g
I'm sorry, but all this video has is Bird making some hoops while Jordan is in the near vicinity (i.e. on the same court). Not sure how this is "schooling" him.

I guess the important part was to rant about Jordan's off-the-court activities. Such a pity.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2013, 10:49:09 AM »

Offline EJPLAYA

  • NCE
  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3816
  • Tommy Points: 127
Although they were mentioned in here as a side note, there isn't enough credit given to Stockton and Malone in these comments about Jordan not facing greats. I am assuming most were not old enough to have seen them actually playing, but they were both arguably (not necessarily actually, but arguably) the greatest players of all time at their position. I think John Stockton is without a doubt the greatest "true" point guard in NBA history. Will likely be the Assist leader and Steals leader for good. He is so far in front. Karl Malone was also amazing. Second all time in Points. (would have likely caught Kareem had he not gone to LA to chase a title) 6th all time in rebounds. 10th all time in steals.

To see this thread talking about Jordan not having any competition during his years... Had Jordan not been the greatest player of all time, Stockton and Malone would likely have had 3 rings on their fingers.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2013, 11:00:50 AM »

Offline rondohondo

  • NCE
  • Danny Ainge
  • **********
  • Posts: 10756
  • Tommy Points: 1196
Still think Russell would have dominated in the 90's and today, just look at the athleticism and skill in this short clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=j2AlFrOj5Mc


Grabs the rebound,in 5 dribbles goes coast to coast , taking off near the free throw line with the left handed finish!

that's freakish athletic ability!
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 11:16:38 AM by rondohondo »

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2013, 11:09:40 AM »

Offline slamtheking

  • NCE
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31869
  • Tommy Points: 10047
Although they were mentioned in here as a side note, there isn't enough credit given to Stockton and Malone in these comments about Jordan not facing greats. I am assuming most were not old enough to have seen them actually playing, but they were both arguably (not necessarily actually, but arguably) the greatest players of all time at their position. I think John Stockton is without a doubt the greatest "true" point guard in NBA history. Will likely be the Assist leader and Steals leader for good. He is so far in front. Karl Malone was also amazing. Second all time in Points. (would have likely caught Kareem had he not gone to LA to chase a title) 6th all time in rebounds. 10th all time in steals.

To see this thread talking about Jordan not having any competition during his years... Had Jordan not been the greatest player of all time, Stockton and Malone would likely have had 3 rings on their fingers.
Stockton and Malone are great players but I wouldn't characterize them as the best ever at their positions.  I'd take Magic, Oscar Robertson and Bob Cousy over Stockton.  I might even take Isaia Thomas too. 

Malone was just built differently than the other guys he played against.  The physique was impressive and he really ran on fast breaks.  not sure I'd call him the best PF ever though.  I'd probably go with Duncan and KG over him and that's just recent players.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2013, 11:10:52 AM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
Although they were mentioned in here as a side note, there isn't enough credit given to Stockton and Malone in these comments about Jordan not facing greats. I am assuming most were not old enough to have seen them actually playing, but they were both arguably (not necessarily actually, but arguably) the greatest players of all time at their position. I think John Stockton is without a doubt the greatest "true" point guard in NBA history. Will likely be the Assist leader and Steals leader for good. He is so far in front. Karl Malone was also amazing. Second all time in Points. (would have likely caught Kareem had he not gone to LA to chase a title) 6th all time in rebounds. 10th all time in steals.

To see this thread talking about Jordan not having any competition during his years... Had Jordan not been the greatest player of all time, Stockton and Malone would likely have had 3 rings on their fingers.

  Stockton and Malone only made it to the finals twice that I can recall. I saw Stockton play and there's no possible way he was close to as good as Magic. I personally thought that Stockton was somewhat overrated. He was very good and very consistent but he didn't really have that extra gear that great players have.