Scal interview on Rondo/Judas/KG/PP, being assistant coach , huge win in Utah

[action781]

Rondo very smart. Doesn't suffer fools well. Doesn't bring it every night like DRose does.

In my opinion that's the biggest issue right there. Both incredibly talented players. Elite talent. But I guess that is the difference between a MVP and an All-Star.

Agree very much with you, Kane.  Rondo would be a strong MVP candidate if he brought his top game every night.

[SparzWizard]

Coincidentally, it was Ray who sacrificed the most out of the Big 3.

Sorry bro, but I call BS on that.  How did he sacrificed more than KG who all of a sudden had to play center position but thrived in it regardless and didn't complain, who took way less money to come back this season than he should've just for the greater good of the team?

Or how did he sacrificed more than Paul, who has been the Celtic right from day one but still was on the trading block just like everyone else (including Ray)?

Ray didn't have to sacrifice much if at all.  His nagging injuries and diminishing talent dictated how he was supposed to be used.

Yeah, I never was for that "Ray sacrificed the most" BS.  Personally, I think Pierce sacrificed the most.  He was the alpha dog of the Celtics and had to share the ball with 2 other players who were just as capable.  Paul was used to being "everything" to the Celtics for a period of time until Ray and KG came along and he was very willing to share.

Remember when people thought Paul was a selfish player?

Paul Pierce, 2008 NBA Finals MVP. Nuff said!

[mgent]

sounds like Scal was calling him selfish but to Roy's point, it might have been more along the lines of being egocentric or even narcissistic - meaning he wanted to help the team win, but he was only concerned with how HE could help the team

if Rondo could help the team win by taking no shots, he would do it - that doesn't compute to Ray

Come on, let's be serious.  Of course that doesn't compute to Ray, how could him taking no shots ever help the team?  Even while hurt he was still our most efficient scorer by a large margin.  The team was getting killed on the boards, something he couldn't really do anything about, nor could he give us another productive player over 6'8".

[wahz]

Somehow when he arrived, Ray had this great rep from the people of New England of being a team player. His rep in Seattle was of a guy who never defended and complained when he didn't get his shots. I've posted a link or two before. There is no question he was also thought of as a good guy and a professional and hard worker.

 Its not easy balancing out that whole perspective, it seems inconsistent, but I think its right: good man, hard worker, methodical, but wants as much glory or credit as he can get.

Getting a handle on Rondo is as difficult: puts winning above all else but doesn't bring it every night.

[More Banners]

Coincidentally, it was Ray who sacrificed the most out of the Big 3.

Sorry bro, but I call BS on that.  How did he sacrificed more than KG who all of a sudden had to play center position but thrived in it regardless and didn't complain, who took way less money to come back this season than he should've just for the greater good of the team?

Or how did he sacrificed more than Paul, who has been the Celtic right from day one but still was on the trading block just like everyone else (including Ray)?

Ray didn't have to sacrifice much if at all.  His nagging injuries and diminishing talent dictated how he was supposed to be used.

Yeah, I never was for that "Ray sacrificed the most" BS.  Personally, I think Pierce sacrificed the most.  He was the alpha dog of the Celtics and had to share the ball with 2 other players who were just as capable.  Paul was used to being "everything" to the Celtics for a period of time until Ray and KG came along and he was very willing to share.

Remember when people thought Paul was a selfish player?

Let's not forget the spot that Ray was in when he got here.

He was an allstar who was traded involuntarily to a rebuilding team, walking in on two surgically repaired ankles as-yet untested, to a team that already had a franchise star in Pierce, who happened to do many of the same things (shoot, curl, penetrate off screens, etc.).

Ray became relevant again when KG was traded here, too, but at the price of rightfully going from top to third banana.

It doesn't really seem like he necessarily signed up for Boston; he didn't have much of a choice.

[Eja117]

To me the Ray/Rondo rift made a certain amount of sense.

At that late point if I'm Ray there's only so much I can respect a player that can't hit a free throw.

If I'm Rondo there's only so much I can respect a guy who loses his spot due to the fact that the 20 year old plays infinitely better defense.

Two guys that think they're better than they are

[BballTim]

It is just a difference between team leader and team player.
Team leader question - "How can our team win?"
Team player - "How can I do my best for team's win?"

And team just cannot have all it's players as leaders.

... and the other interesting thing is that Scal indicates that Rondo doesn't give 100% effort all the time.

I think that's interesting.  A team leader who tells other players what the team needs to do better to win, but doesn't give full effort.  It's just an interesting dichotomy.

  I don't think that's exactly what he meant. He also said that when he was Rondo's teammate Rondo "brought it" every night and played hard.

  What I thought was the most interesting part was when Scal was talking about how you could surround him with players that fit his style and compete for titles even if his teammates aren't the most talented players around.

[bfrombleacher]

Can we finally at least stop attributing the Rondo "pound the ball to the ground" offense to Rondo's supposed absurd egotism now?

[CelticsFan9]

It is just a difference between team leader and team player.
Team leader question - "How can our team win?"
Team player - "How can I do my best for team's win?"

And team just cannot have all it's players as leaders.

... and the other interesting thing is that Scal indicates that Rondo doesn't give 100% effort all the time.

I think that's interesting.  A team leader who tells other players what the team needs to do better to win, but doesn't give full effort.  It's just an interesting dichotomy.

  I don't think that's exactly what he meant. He also said that when he was Rondo's teammate Rondo "brought it" every night and played hard.

  What I thought was the most interesting part was when Scal was talking about how you could surround him with players that fit his style and compete for titles even if his teammates aren't the most talented players around.

Well, that's pretty obvious, as Rondo is the kind of player that makes everyone better with his ability to get everyone involved.  However, I'm not sure they could ALL be "not the most talented," because I think Rondo needs at least another star to compete.  Hopefully, Green, Bradley, or Sully can become that, but if not, we need to find someone who can fill that star role if we want to contend again.

[CelticG1]

Ray seemed to take things with Rondo a little to personally. Like he wasnt giving him the ball on purpose and holding a grudge.

I remember pierce walking off at half time cause he was calling for the ball but he didnt think Rondo was passing him the ball then Rondo looked for him and his back was turned watching him walk away


I remember feeling a lot of tension there but clearly Pierce can look past little things like that (even though pierce was in the wrong). Ive seen other times that Pierce seems annoyed with Rondo for not passing to him but clearly it doesnt affect Pierce or his relationship with Rondo as it did with Ray

[Kane3387]

Rondo very smart. Doesn't suffer fools well. Doesn't bring it every night like DRose does.

In my opinion that's the biggest issue right there. Both incredibly talented players. Elite talent. But I guess that is the difference between a MVP and an All-Star.

Agree very much with you, Kane.  Rondo would be a strong MVP candidate if he brought his top game every night.

Yeah it's really a waste when you think about it. Not on the scale of a Vince carter or t Mac in regards to say Kobe but its still a little disappointing.

[BballTim]

Rondo, PP, KG all about the team winning. Judas isn't dumb, that isn't the cause of the rift. Judas focus wasn't always on the Cs winning.

If they had a team meeting, specifically about the team winning and losing KG/Rondo/PP were about "how do we get the team to win". Judas was all about "what do I need to do?". Scal made the "we" vs "I" distinction pretty clear.

In fairness, Scal said, from his perspective, most players in the NBA talk about what they individually need to do to make the same win, and that every player on the Celtics outside of KG, Pierce, and Rondo were that way.

Scal clearly Said, 3 players on the Celtics (PP,KG,RR) were about what we can do as a team to win, while Ray was like..what can I do ...how the team can set him up to win or something of that nature...

Glad hes gone..never liked him.

Right.  Like I said, every player on the Celtics other than Pierce, Rondo, and KG had the perspective "how can I individually help the team win", as opposed to the perspective of those three, which was "what do we all need to do better?"

  Scal definitely gave an interesting perspective to the approach that RR and KG take compared to the other 99% of the league. Most players seem to take the approach that if the team's style of play suits them better, they'll be more successful and their increased success will lead to more success for the team.

  KG and Rondo look at it from a different perspective. Instead of trying to figure out what the team can do to make them more productive individually, they look at how the team can get the highest aggregate contribution from all of the players. It's kind of a "chess vs checkers" approach to the puzzle. I think it's also why, to differing degrees, the main knock on both players throughout their careers has been that they haven't been assertive enough in terms of taking over games or "selfishly" demanded the ball/shot often enough.

  They aren't trying to win games by being as individually productive as possible, they're trying to do whatever they think will raise the overall level of the team the most. For Rondo that might mean looking to get his teammates easy shots instead of looking to score, for KG it might mean setting picks to get people open instead of trying to get a good scoring opportunity for himself.

  I think this is likely the main reason Rondo's seen as inconsistent. Most top players are trying to maximize their individual production in an effort to help the team win, Rondo's trying to wring as much productivity from the offense as a whole as he can. When the team's playing poorly Chris Paul (for example) will try and do what he can to carry the team, Rondo will try and do what he thinks will get the team back on track. The unique thing about Rondo is that he's less deferential in bigger games.

  Not that I'm comparing Rondo (or KG for that matter) to him, but Bird also took the "team not player" approach to the game. I can remember a lot of games where he'd spend the early part of games trying to get his teammates going instead of scoring himself because they'd play better during the game if they got off to a good start whereas Bird would play well regardless.

[TripleOT]

Ray Allen couldn't accept that his overall game had diminished.  The bear before he arrived in Boston, only 47% of his baskets were assisted. He was the man there and he was allowed to freewheel and get his.  He made "only" 40% of his jumpers, and his eFG was 51%. 

His first year in Boston, 65% of his hoops were assisted, and he hit 40% of his jumpers, buy his eFG was 54%,  The next year, 69% of his hoops were assisted, and he hit 44% of his jumpers, with an eFG of 57%.  And those number trended up over the years, with Allen's final year in Boston he was helped on 78% of his hoops with an eFG of 57%. 

Allen can't argue that his use in Boston resulted in him being one of the most efficient scorer in the league. Should he have been used more? That's a matter to be debated, I guess, but the Cs had a ton of success using him the way they did.

In Miami, he still needs to be set up to score, with 74% of his hoops assisted, and he's still efficient, with an eFG of 56%.  In Boston, Allen didn't want to accept that Father Time got to him, and that he became a one trick pony - a spot up shooter than needs someone to get him the ball to score. Paradoxically, he's embraced that role in Miami, even though he's getting less touches and is the 4th or 5th option there.

Unfortunately, Ray Allen wasn't man enough to accept his role here in Boston.  I regret that Ainge didn't pull the trigger on that deadline deal last season so the Cs could nave gotten something for Allen, and I hope he fails miserably in the playoffs in Miami.  However, there's no denying the positive impact he's had on that team's offense and on their roster, as a $6m a year player taking a 50% discount to ring chase.     

[Clench123]

Rondo, PP, KG all about the team winning. Judas isn't dumb, that isn't the cause of the rift. Judas focus wasn't always on the Cs winning.

If they had a team meeting, specifically about the team winning and losing KG/Rondo/PP were about "how do we get the team to win". Judas was all about "what do I need to do?". Scal made the "we" vs "I" distinction pretty clear.

In fairness, Scal said, from his perspective, most players in the NBA talk about what they individually need to do to make the same win, and that every player on the Celtics outside of KG, Pierce, and Rondo were that way.

Scal clearly Said, 3 players on the Celtics (PP,KG,RR) were about what we can do as a team to win, while Ray was like..what can I do ...how the team can set him up to win or something of that nature...

Glad hes gone..never liked him.

Right.  Like I said, every player on the Celtics other than Pierce, Rondo, and KG had the perspective "how can I individually help the team win", as opposed to the perspective of those three, which was "what do we all need to do better?"

  Scal definitely gave an interesting perspective to the approach that RR and KG take compared to the other 99% of the league. Most players seem to take the approach that if the team's style of play suits them better, they'll be more successful and their increased success will lead to more success for the team.

  KG and Rondo look at it from a different perspective. Instead of trying to figure out what the team can do to make them more productive individually, they look at how the team can get the highest aggregate contribution from all of the players. It's kind of a "chess vs checkers" approach to the puzzle. I think it's also why, to differing degrees, the main knock on both players throughout their careers has been that they haven't been assertive enough in terms of taking over games or "selfishly" demanded the ball/shot often enough.

  They aren't trying to win games by being as individually productive as possible, they're trying to do whatever they think will raise the overall level of the team the most. For Rondo that might mean looking to get his teammates easy shots instead of looking to score, for KG it might mean setting picks to get people open instead of trying to get a good scoring opportunity for himself.

  I think this is likely the main reason Rondo's seen as inconsistent. Most top players are trying to maximize their individual production in an effort to help the team win, Rondo's trying to wring as much productivity from the offense as a whole as he can. When the team's playing poorly Chris Paul (for example) will try and do what he can to carry the team, Rondo will try and do what he thinks will get the team back on track. The unique thing about Rondo is that he's less deferential in bigger games.

  Not that I'm comparing Rondo (or KG for that matter) to him, but Bird also took the "team not player" approach to the game. I can remember a lot of games where he'd spend the early part of games trying to get his teammates going instead of scoring himself because they'd play better during the game if they got off to a good start whereas Bird would play well regardless.

Man...you nailed it...right on the head

[GreenFaith1819]

Well, in any event - after reading through the thread a bit, I can see semantics at work, and how we interpret it.

It's been determined that Rajon Rondo didn't give 100% every game, too...I hope he comes back more mature next season.

For me, I'll always respect what Ray Allen did for BOS, and I hope we are ready to deal with him between now and Apr-May June(?).

I think the ONLY way we can put Ray Allen behind us is beating him in a series....and that will be TOUGH, with a capital T.