Author Topic: Simple Question: Is Doc a great coach?  (Read 5512 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Simple Question: Is Doc a great coach?
« Reply #45 on: February 27, 2013, 02:21:21 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6797
  • Tommy Points: 651
Doc is very comparable to Phil Jackson.  Obviously, Phil had a legendary career, so it's not really fair to compare Doc to him, but there are many similarities.

Like Phil, Doc is an decent "x's & o's" coach, but is best known for is unique ability to effectively manage high-maintenance personalities/ego's.

In the NBA, people skills are every bit as important as actual coaching.  Sometimes, even more important.

Re: Simple Question: Is Doc a great coach?
« Reply #46 on: February 27, 2013, 02:25:21 PM »

Offline Chief

  • Danny Ainge
  • **********
  • Posts: 10439
  • Tommy Points: 1156
I don't like him.
Once you are labeled 'the best' you want to stay up there, and you can't do it by loafing around.
 
Larry Bird

Re: Simple Question: Is Doc a great coach?
« Reply #47 on: February 27, 2013, 02:28:43 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9522
  • Tommy Points: 721
Danny doesn't want to pay for height but I wonder what a big, defensive minded team would look like being coached by Doc.

I don't really think it has to be that big (see, for example, Avery Bradley as a SG), but I think Doc would want guys who can defend multiple positions.  You'd want to give him a PF/C who can defend comfortably against a stretch 4 and one of those three-and-D wings who can defend three positions.

Doc is very system-oriented on defense, so it's not enough to be a man-to-man defender.  You need to be intelligent to play the way he wants.  I suspect that it is better to fill out Doc's bench with smart players of average athleticism rather than athletic players who are stupid, hoping they improve mentally. 
"The worst thing that ever happened in sports was sports radio, and the internet is sports radio on steroids with lower IQs.” -- Brian Burke, former Toronto Maple Leafs senior adviser, at the 2013 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference

Re: Simple Question: Is Doc a great coach?
« Reply #48 on: February 27, 2013, 02:31:34 PM »

Offline Snakehead

  • Bailey Howell
  • ***
  • Posts: 3782
  • Tommy Points: 208
Danny doesn't want to pay for height but I wonder what a big, defensive minded team would look like being coached by Doc.

I don't really think it has to be that big (see, for example, Avery Bradley as a SG), but I think Doc would want guys who can defend multiple positions.  You'd want to give him a PF/C who can defend comfortably against a stretch 4 and one of those three-and-D wings who can defend three positions.

Doc is very system-oriented on defense, so it's not enough to be a man-to-man defender.  You need to be intelligent to play the way he wants.  I suspect that it is better to fill out Doc's bench with smart players of average athleticism rather than athletic players who are stupid, hoping they improve mentally.

True enough.  Though I usually associate larger teams (in the post) with better defenses.

If you look for example at two players this year that were said to be ones Doc is in love with (where they were called crushes even) it was JJ Redick and Gordon Heyward. Both are solid athletes but more than anything they are just good all around, play hard, and are smart.  So I agree with your point.


"I really don't want people to understand me." - Jordan Crawford

Re: Simple Question: Is Doc a great coach?
« Reply #49 on: February 27, 2013, 02:42:27 PM »

Offline scaryjerry

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1628
  • Tommy Points: 72
Doc is very comparable to Phil Jackson.  Obviously, Phil had a legendary career, so it's not really fair to compare Doc to him, but there are many similarities.

Like Phil, Doc is an decent "x's & o's" coach, but is best known for is unique ability to effectively manage high-maintenance personalities/ego's.

In the NBA, people skills are every bit as important as actual coaching.  Sometimes, even more important.


nice effort to compare him to a coaching legend...but just no....not on his level.

Idk it's like saying the bobcats history is comparable to the Celtics.

many think Phil is overrated because he had Jordan...but the last I checked before he had Phil he was known as a selfish player you could never win a title with, Phil essentially created mj the champion he wasn't just along for the ride like Mr rivers.

Great..he's likable...last title we won was because of Garnett spearheading thibodeaus defense  not really much to do with doc at all, sorry

Re: Simple Question: Is Doc a great coach?
« Reply #50 on: February 27, 2013, 02:48:49 PM »

Offline Snakehead

  • Bailey Howell
  • ***
  • Posts: 3782
  • Tommy Points: 208
Doc is very comparable to Phil Jackson.  Obviously, Phil had a legendary career, so it's not really fair to compare Doc to him, but there are many similarities.

Like Phil, Doc is an decent "x's & o's" coach, but is best known for is unique ability to effectively manage high-maintenance personalities/ego's.

In the NBA, people skills are every bit as important as actual coaching.  Sometimes, even more important.


nice effort to compare him to a coaching legend...but just no....not on his level.

Idk it's like saying the bobcats history is comparable to the Celtics.

many think Phil is overrated because he had Jordan...but the last I checked before he had Phil he was known as a selfish player you could never win a title with, Phil essentially created mj the champion he wasn't just along for the ride like Mr rivers

He got MJ as he was improving, most players become less selfish as they get older.  Also: obviously they get much better... not sure why you would ignore that.  Jackson was getting just a BETTER Jordan. 

And he also got the Bulls when they were just becoming better.  Pippen was drafted in 87, so he got him a couple seasons in.  And the personnel improved after that.

I think Jackson is great, but he has never had to really deal with lackluster talent.  Doc has and he didn't do that well... but hey that's how it goes.  At some point the coach is inseparable from their talent, which is why I find these rankings rather pointless.

In styles, Doc and Phil do have similarities in that they both are good at managing personalities, players, and egos.  That's the point of comparison he was trying to make.


"I really don't want people to understand me." - Jordan Crawford

Re: Simple Question: Is Doc a great coach?
« Reply #51 on: February 27, 2013, 02:49:17 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6797
  • Tommy Points: 651
Doc is very comparable to Phil Jackson.  Obviously, Phil had a legendary career, so it's not really fair to compare Doc to him, but there are many similarities.

Like Phil, Doc is an decent "x's & o's" coach, but is best known for is unique ability to effectively manage high-maintenance personalities/ego's.

In the NBA, people skills are every bit as important as actual coaching.  Sometimes, even more important.


nice effort to compare him to a coaching legend...but just no....not on his level.

Idk it's like saying the bobcats history is comparable to the Celtics.

many think Phil is overrated because he had Jordan...but the last I checked before he had Phil he was known as a selfish player you could never win a title...Phil essentially created mj the champion

Thus why I said "it's not really fair to compare Doc to him (Phil)".

11>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>1......Really all that needs to be said about that.

Mostly, what I meant was,they are similar in what they bring as coaches.  Phil was never a great coach from and "x' & o's" standpoint.  He had MJ, Pippen, Shaq, Kobe, Gasol, etc..  He didn't need to be, he just needed to do what he did best, manage personalities.

This is probaly Doc's greatest attribute as well, thus the comparison.

Re: Simple Question: Is Doc a great coach?
« Reply #52 on: February 27, 2013, 02:50:29 PM »

Offline Donoghus

  • Global Moderator
  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19193
  • Tommy Points: 651
  • What a Pub Should Be
Doc is very comparable to Phil Jackson.  Obviously, Phil had a legendary career, so it's not really fair to compare Doc to him, but there are many similarities.

Like Phil, Doc is an decent "x's & o's" coach, but is best known for is unique ability to effectively manage high-maintenance personalities/ego's.

In the NBA, people skills are every bit as important as actual coaching.  Sometimes, even more important.


nice effort to compare him to a coaching legend...but just no....not on his level.

Idk it's like saying the bobcats history is comparable to the Celtics.

many think Phil is overrated because he had Jordan...but the last I checked before he had Phil he was known as a selfish player you could never win a title with, Phil essentially created mj the champion he wasn't just along for the ride like Mr rivers

He got MJ as he was improving, most players become less selfish as they get older.  Also: obviously they get much better... not sure why you would ignore that.  Jackson was getting just a BETTER Jordan. 

And he also got the Bulls when they were just becoming better.  Pippen was drafted in 87, so he got him a couple seasons in.  And the personnel improved after that.

I think Jackson is great, but he has never had to really deal with lackluster talent.  Doc has and he didn't do that well... but hey that's how it goes.  At some point the coach is inseparable from their talent, which is why I find these rankings rather pointless.

In styles, Doc and Phil do have similarities in how they try to manage personalities.  That's the comparison.

Agreed on the personalities aspect and I think that was the gist of what KG Knee's post was about.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 03:00:11 PM by Donoghus »


2010 CB Historical Draft - Best Overall Team

Re: Simple Question: Is Doc a great coach?
« Reply #53 on: February 27, 2013, 03:05:04 PM »

Online BballTim

  • Sam Jones
  • **********************
  • Posts: 22675
  • Tommy Points: 1042
Doc is very comparable to Phil Jackson.  Obviously, Phil had a legendary career, so it's not really fair to compare Doc to him, but there are many similarities.

Like Phil, Doc is an decent "x's & o's" coach, but is best known for is unique ability to effectively manage high-maintenance personalities/ego's.

In the NBA, people skills are every bit as important as actual coaching.  Sometimes, even more important.


nice effort to compare him to a coaching legend...but just no....not on his level.

Idk it's like saying the bobcats history is comparable to the Celtics.

many think Phil is overrated because he had Jordan...but the last I checked before he had Phil he was known as a selfish player you could never win a title with, Phil essentially created mj the champion he wasn't just along for the ride like Mr rivers.

Great..he's likable...last title we won was because of Garnett spearheading thibodeaus defense  not really much to do with doc at all, sorry

  I think you better re-check your sources, nobody was saying MJ was a player you could never win a title with, and Phil certainly didn't "create" him. That's just ridiculous.

Re: Simple Question: Is Doc a great coach?
« Reply #54 on: February 27, 2013, 03:42:37 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

  • NCE
  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9707
  • Tommy Points: 507
naw..... he is not a coaching legion....at least yet.........

Celtics could do worse though..........Doc is a proven good coach.......who can win with top players.....despite his sometimes bizarre rotations.

Doc compares  to Jackson in so much as he has the players respect,  and NBA players DO like his coaching style  and way it seems.

to be considered great , adding another 3 or 4 banners during his tenure. and basically retiring as a Celtic would help.

without  CP3 or Lebron greatness ......it's a hard road to the top

Re: Simple Question: Is Doc a great coach?
« Reply #55 on: February 27, 2013, 03:51:44 PM »

Offline kgainez

  • NCE
  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1126
  • Tommy Points: 54
I don't think Ainge has always given Doc the right personnel.  Ainge seems to keep trying to add "instant offense" players to the bench.  I think Doc's coaching style would be better served by adding defense-oriented players and letting Doc figure out the offense.  You're not going to earn Doc's trust by scoring enough to outweigh your defensive liabilities.

I agree with this and this is also my problem with Doc.
Doc has the ability to get a lot out of less talented players. Ryan Hollins. Greg Steimsa, Tony Allen, Perk, etc. are shells of their former selves now. Does that have a lot to do with usage and age? One could argue that, but I think it's because Doc knows how to use these guys who have limited talent in big areas. He has no clue what to do with these guys who have multiple talents and how to use them (see JG, Lee, Barbosa before RR went down).

Danny is obviously all for the youth movement and I think it's necessary. With guys like Lebron, KD, Irving, PG, Steph Curry all taking over, it's tough to beat that with veterans and less talented people. You almost have to fight fire with fire.

Doc is a veterans coach. Is he a good coach? Sure. A great? nawl. My issue with Doc is his stubborness to join the youth movement. I think he still thinks Paul can still be that guy and KG can just because. I think they have flashes, but they are not what they used to be. So in that, he needs to start developing some of the talent on the team for the future, if he cares.

The thing I like about Pop is he has no problem going with the hot hand, no problem letting the young guys play and learn and he has no problem doing what's right for the team or the game. Sometimes it feels like Doc continues to ride KG and Paul because they're vets and no matter how much they clank it, he'd rather pass it to PP whos 2/10 for the night than JG who's 6/8 for the night. That's my issue.

Let's embrace the youth movement. Let's all recognize KG and PP shouldn't be carrying teams every quarter in their older age.

Re: Simple Question: Is Doc a great coach?
« Reply #56 on: February 27, 2013, 04:13:59 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9522
  • Tommy Points: 721
Doc is a veterans coach. Is he a good coach? Sure. A great? nawl. My issue with Doc is his stubborness to join the youth movement. I think he still thinks Paul can still be that guy and KG can just because. I think they have flashes, but they are not what they used to be. So in that, he needs to start developing some of the talent on the team for the future, if he cares.

The thing I like about Pop is he has no problem going with the hot hand, no problem letting the young guys play and learn and he has no problem doing what's right for the team or the game. Sometimes it feels like Doc continues to ride KG and Paul because they're vets and no matter how much they clank it, he'd rather pass it to PP whos 2/10 for the night than JG who's 6/8 for the night. That's my issue.

It's funny, because Popovich has had a reputation among Spurs fans of preferring veterans and not playing rookies.

I don't think Doc absolutely refuses to play rookies, but he's not going to play them for the sake of playing them.  I think Doc is more likely to play young guys who prioritize defense over offense.  I suspect that as a guy who clings to control of the team so strongly that Kevin Garnett has compared the Celtics to Cuba, Doc probably makes some effort to make sure younger players play by his rules.  I suspect that young players whose lack of playing time dismays some in this forum were in Doc's doghouse because they weren't intelligent enough to understand how to do it Doc's way.

I'd like for Doc to put Pierce on the same minutes limitation that he has KG on and go from there.
"The worst thing that ever happened in sports was sports radio, and the internet is sports radio on steroids with lower IQs.” -- Brian Burke, former Toronto Maple Leafs senior adviser, at the 2013 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference

Re: Simple Question: Is Doc a great coach?
« Reply #57 on: February 27, 2013, 04:19:33 PM »

Offline Accension13

  • Gerald Wallace
  • Posts: 126
  • Tommy Points: 5
Doc is not a great coach.  The term great is used to loosely with players and coaches. Doc is a good coach that has an excellent way of dealing with veterans. In my opinion, he is too predictable in his past calling and his rotations. Additionally, I don't think he affairs his style to the talent he has

Re: Simple Question: Is Doc a great coach?
« Reply #58 on: February 27, 2013, 04:34:15 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11121
  • Tommy Points: 2168
I'd say yes, absolutely Glenn Doc Rivers is a great coach. Here's why:

1. One Banner and One Finals appearance since 07-08.

2. Other "Probable" Finals appearances and Banner
   opportunities were thwarted by none other than injuries
   (Perk, KG, Rondo)....

3. If we remember to just last summer - Doc Rivers was
   heavily rumored to be a candidate to coach the US Men's
   Olympic team in the future - along with Greg Popovich -
   another Great coach.

4. Someone name me another coach or team that has had to
   deal with the revolving door of personalities...egos...
   talents...that have come through BOS over the years:

   Marbury (08-09). The Blog, if I remember, almost
   imploded at mention of Stephon Marbury in Green. It
   happened, and the man performed admirably...even doing
   exactly what Doc said he would do "Marbury will help us
   win a game in the post-season (and he did just that).
   No other team would touch him, but he did well in BOS.

   Shaq. Doc got the last bit of good health out of the Big
   Shamrock right before the Big Fella just couldn't play
   anymore - and BOS looked unbeatable with Shaq....and Doc
   made it work.

Not to mention a constantly changing bench (PJ Brown, Posey, TA, Big Baby, JO, Sheed, Nate, etc, etc...

Doc's dealt with it all, and at the same time has kept BOS
as a contender for the last few years. Plus, he's done an OUTSTANDING job monitoring our older player's minutes (KG, especially).

For these and other reasons I'm sure have been mentioned here already, Glenn Doc Rivers is a Great Coach.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 04:39:26 PM by GreenFaith1819 »

Re: Simple Question: Is Doc a great coach?
« Reply #59 on: February 27, 2013, 05:16:09 PM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

  • NCE
  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1949
  • Tommy Points: 134
I'd say yes, absolutely Glenn Doc Rivers is a great coach. Here's why:

1. One Banner and One Finals appearance since 07-08.

2. Other "Probable" Finals appearances and Banner
   opportunities were thwarted by none other than injuries
   (Perk, KG, Rondo)....

3. If we remember to just last summer - Doc Rivers was
   heavily rumored to be a candidate to coach the US Men's
   Olympic team in the future - along with Greg Popovich -
   another Great coach.

4. Someone name me another coach or team that has had to
   deal with the revolving door of personalities...egos...
   talents...that have come through BOS over the years:

   Marbury (08-09). The Blog, if I remember, almost
   imploded at mention of Stephon Marbury in Green. It
   happened, and the man performed admirably...even doing
   exactly what Doc said he would do "Marbury will help us
   win a game in the post-season (and he did just that).
   No other team would touch him, but he did well in BOS.

   Shaq. Doc got the last bit of good health out of the Big
   Shamrock right before the Big Fella just couldn't play
   anymore - and BOS looked unbeatable with Shaq....and Doc
   made it work.

Not to mention a constantly changing bench (PJ Brown, Posey, TA, Big Baby, JO, Sheed, Nate, etc, etc...

Doc's dealt with it all, and at the same time has kept BOS
as a contender for the last few years. Plus, he's done an OUTSTANDING job monitoring our older player's minutes (KG, especially).

For these and other reasons I'm sure have been mentioned here already, Glenn Doc Rivers is a Great Coach.

Only thing on that list that stands out is one championship and another finals appearance. Something spoelstra has done in his first two years since his big 3 formed. Doc is overrated. Most coaches in the league could have won with the 07-08 team. He doesn't get the best out of his players, his rotations blow, he relies too heavily on the vets, he thought playing terry like he was ray allen was a great idea. He relies on pierce ISO to win every game that comes down to the last shot even tho it works like 20-30 percent of the time.

Sully and bass playing together was another doc rivers special, the last 3 years his teams have been extremely inconsistent, it took our best player to go down to start playing better *Something that should NEVER happen*. I could go on and on, doc is so overrated its hysterical. Nothing he has done has made me say to myself wow, doc is a GREAT COACH. Hes *good* at BEST and even that's pushing it in my opinion. Watching this guy coach sometimes i honestly think most of us on here would do better just by using common sense alone.

 

Hello! Guest

Welcome to the CelticsBlog Forums.

Welcome to CelticsBlog