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[tarheelsxxiii]

me too. RIP Celtics basketball, for a while...

[PhoSita]

"Tough" is one of those intangible qualities that you can easily project onto a team that is successful.  Just like "soft" is a quality you can easily project onto a team that's losing.

[tarheelsxxiii]

No gray area, here... this isn't a matter of semantics. If you've played basketball, you know basketball, and you're a true fan... you know we were tough back then. Not measured by wins or losses... we were tough. If we win the next 20, we will still be soft...

[jojowhite10]

No gray area, here... this isn't a matter of semantics. If you've played basketball, you know basketball, and you're a true fan... you know we were tough back then. Not measured by wins or losses... we were tough. If we win the next 20, we will still be soft...

I think it's pretty difficult to envision a team winning 20 games in a row yet still failing to exhibit any traits of physical or mental "toughness" (which is also an arbitrary term as PhoSita pointed out).

If you didn't mean literally 20, but you still think the Celtics are "soft", then I am confused as to why you through out an arbitrary number for comparison's sake. With all that being said, there are many aspects that determine a quality team, and oftentimes they seem to come out more often when a team loses. I gotta defer to PhoSita here and say that it just seems that way because we aren't winning. Doc is still the coach. KG is still playing. I'm pretty sure the same stuff is being preached now that was a few years ago. But hey, maybe I'm totally off base.

[Scottie]

Yep, disagree vehemently with the original poster. I think Pho Sita summed it up perfectly.

[PhoSita]

No gray area, here... this isn't a matter of semantics. If you've played basketball, you know basketball, and you're a true fan... you know we were tough back then. Not measured by wins or losses... we were tough. If we win the next 20, we will still be soft...

Look up "circular reasoning"

[IndeedProceed]

I think this team does desperately need a swagger, an identity. Things like talent, cohesiveness, they breed play you might call 'tough', because they can consistently play through adversity.

We also are desperately missing an enforcer. Perkins is tough. So is Zach Randolph. Nik Pekovic is tough. But so is James Johnson, and he's buried on the Sacramento bench. Toughness isn't necessarily brutish play, it's refusing to bend to adversity. Miami is 'tough', and their best rim protector was once called 'ru-Paul' by Shaq. But they're tough because they stroll into your house with a target on their back night after night and win more games than they lose, and don't apologize for it.

[LB3533]

Toughness doesn't make up the difference between Pierce missing a difficult wide open turnaround shot from 10 feet and Wesley Mathews swishing a step back fadeaway 3 pointer over Jeff Green's outstretched arm.

[PhoSita]

I think this team does desperately need a swagger, an identity. Things like talent, cohesiveness, they breed play you might call 'tough', because they can consistently play through adversity.

We also are desperately missing an enforcer. Perkins is tough. So is Zach Randolph. Nik Pekovic is tough. But so is James Johnson, and he's buried on the Sacramento bench. Toughness isn't necessarily brutish play, it's refusing to bend to adversity. Miami is 'tough', and their best rim protector was once called 'ru-Paul' by Shaq. But they're tough because they stroll into your house with a target on their back night after night and win more games than they lose, and don't apologize for it.

Again, these things really seem like narratives that are driven by observers.

The Heat lacked mental toughness when they first came together.  Then they won, and they were tough and had swagger.

Dirk was soft.  Then he carried his team to a title over the Heat and that talk stopped.  In retrospect, some people say Tyson Chandler brought the Mavs the toughness they needed to win.

KG was a soft guy who just trash talked a lot.  Then he won a title with the Celtics and he was legit tough.

Pau Gasol was soft in Memphis, then joined the Lakers and got beaten around by the physical, tough, trash-talking Celtics.  Then he helped the Lakers win a title in 2009 and was the most important player in the 2010 Finals repeat.  Suddenly he wasn't soft anymore.

But then the Lakers started having trouble and losing, and Pau started to have some injuries, and just like that he was soft again.

[ACF]

The defense will now present Exhibit A, the 2010 NBA Playoffs...


Also, if we go far in the playoffs (not saying we will and not saying we won't), I promise you I will bump this thread. You've got everything to lose. I'm not even sure this thread is going to last that long. I bet people are going to get riled up, call each other names and a mod will lock. We'll see...


And to the people talking about Pau: Pau is European, we are soft by definition! 

[Who]

It has been a finesse team since KG moved to center. Always going to be that way.

They don't have that physical toughness in the paint anymore with KG at the five alongside guys like Bass or Wilcox.

The team's defense is based on quickness now rather than muscle. It is just a different way of getting to your end goal. A better way for this group of players because it maximizes their strengths better than Boston's old defensive style does. 

[Lightskinsmurf]

The days of boston being feared are long gone. Everybody feels like they can beat this celtics team, even the bobcats.

[scaryjerry]

Not really...even when we were our "toughest" we were more bark then bite...like say going 7 against a below .500 team in the first round , being unable to win a road game in the playoffs..granted we were tougher then the lakers in that years finals but that isn't saying much...they got their revenge.

[scaryjerry]

The days of boston being feared are long gone. Everybody feels like they can beat this celtics team, even the bobcats.

They've never been feared.

[Celtics4ever]

In all honesty when Perk and Posey left town we lost our toughness.   We still competed and we won but the macho was not there anymore.