Author Topic: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan  (Read 41526 times)

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Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #105 on: March 05, 2013, 08:45:40 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

  So, wait, you looked up the stats (points, assists and rebounds) of the player that's widely seen as the best defensive player *ever* and decided that he shouldn't be mvp of the finals? Even you must see the flaw in that logic. If you're going to start your post with "you're better than that" you shouldn't end it with a doozy like that.

Hey tim, remember when I said "You use stats when it backs your argument but dismiss them when they don't". Thanks for proving my point again lol. How many finals mvps go to players that don't dominate the game on the offensive end?

  Sigh. I didn't say that the stats were meaningless, but they don't measure what they don't measure. I've never heard a single person who actually saw those Celts teams play name anyone besides Russell as the best or most valuable player on those teams. Using only stats to evaluate players that you've never seen is fairly dangerous, using only stats to evaluate players you've never seen when everything you've heard about that player screams that the stats don't tell the whole story seems silly.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #106 on: March 05, 2013, 08:47:25 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

That is your problem. The game is about far more than stats, and no body proves that more than Russell.

How did you quantify his defense while you were looking at those box scores?

Oh, you didn't?

EDIT: Wilt, who Russell had to play against and was an athletic freak, was better than ANYONE Jordan ever toed up against.

Oh I agree, the game is about more than just stats. I have actually been preaching that lately. That being said no matter how you try to slice it, Jordan is just a far overall better basketball player than russell.

Especially when you take everything into consideration. If you wanna talk strictly winning then yeah russell over jordan.

  Just out of curiosity, how many games did you see Russell play in?

I wasn't alive back then but I saw alot of games, don't know how many.

  So if you've seen a lot of Russell's games, how many blocks a game would you estimate he averaged?

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #107 on: March 05, 2013, 08:49:28 PM »

Offline Who

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I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

Do you have a link for that?  I'd be interested to see what numbers you're referencing.

Its actually a video. I can find It later if you want.

Yeah, that would be cool.  It's hard to find box scores from before the mid-80s.

They have box scores and series averages on basketball-reference.com

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1965_finals.html

They only seem to have the Finals up until the mid to late 70s. Then they have separate series too. Conference finals. Second round. First rounds.

Anyway, you can see what Bill Russell averaged each year in the Finals there. Or anyone else or any other playoff series you are interested in.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #108 on: March 05, 2013, 08:54:11 PM »

Offline wayupnorth

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Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

  So, wait, you looked up the stats (points, assists and rebounds) of the player that's widely seen as the best defensive player *ever* and decided that he shouldn't be mvp of the finals? Even you must see the flaw in that logic. If you're going to start your post with "you're better than that" you shouldn't end it with a doozy like that.

Hey tim, remember when I said "You use stats when it backs your argument but dismiss them when they don't". Thanks for proving my point again lol. How many finals mvps go to players that don't dominate the game on the offensive end?

Seriously? You use offensive stats to try and prove how bad Bill Russell is.

Are you even aware of what he is known for? Or are you simply out for a nice sTROLL?

Nobody ever said russell was bad. I said putting him on jordans level is insane. The fact that you can't even use offensive numbers when talking about russell says it all lol.

Fair enough, I implied that, and you never did, so I apologize about that.

I never said you couldn't use them, I meant that they should not be what you base your opinions off of.

Now, if they kept record of blocks (or steals?) I would say that is something to look at. But by focusing a review of Russell on statistics, you overlook the very things that made him the great, great player that he was.

I guess the point I have been trying to make to you, isn't that Russell is better than Jordan (I firmly believe it, but understand, from experience, that is almost like a conversation on the death penalty, in that the lines are drawn already), but that just because you are of the belief of something, that does not mean it is so.



Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #109 on: March 05, 2013, 08:56:03 PM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

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Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

That is your problem. The game is about far more than stats, and no body proves that more than Russell.

How did you quantify his defense while you were looking at those box scores?

Oh, you didn't?

EDIT: Wilt, who Russell had to play against and was an athletic freak, was better than ANYONE Jordan ever toed up against.

Oh I agree, the game is about more than just stats. I have actually been preaching that lately. That being said no matter how you try to slice it, Jordan is just a far overall better basketball player than russell.

Especially when you take everything into consideration. If you wanna talk strictly winning then yeah russell over jordan.

  Just out of curiosity, how many games did you see Russell play in?

I wasn't alive back then but I saw alot of games, don't know how many.

  So if you've seen a lot of Russell's games, how many blocks a game would you estimate he averaged?

Um, not sure, alot. Seven? He blocked alot of shots that's all I know for sure. Between 6-9 ? Maybe? Lol Lets just say alot.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #110 on: March 05, 2013, 09:08:58 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

That is your problem. The game is about far more than stats, and no body proves that more than Russell.

How did you quantify his defense while you were looking at those box scores?

Oh, you didn't?

EDIT: Wilt, who Russell had to play against and was an athletic freak, was better than ANYONE Jordan ever toed up against.

Oh I agree, the game is about more than just stats. I have actually been preaching that lately. That being said no matter how you try to slice it, Jordan is just a far overall better basketball player than russell.

Especially when you take everything into consideration. If you wanna talk strictly winning then yeah russell over jordan.

  Just out of curiosity, how many games did you see Russell play in?

I wasn't alive back then but I saw alot of games, don't know how many.

  So if you've seen a lot of Russell's games, how many blocks a game would you estimate he averaged?

Um, not sure, alot. Seven? He blocked alot of shots that's all I know for sure. Between 6-9 ? Maybe? Lol Lets just say alot.

  So 2-3 times what anyone's ever averaged? That's pretty impressive. I've heard estimates in the 8-10 range which sounds crazy, but so does 50 points or 27 rebounds a game.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #111 on: March 05, 2013, 09:17:57 PM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

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Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

That is your problem. The game is about far more than stats, and no body proves that more than Russell.

How did you quantify his defense while you were looking at those box scores?

Oh, you didn't?

EDIT: Wilt, who Russell had to play against and was an athletic freak, was better than ANYONE Jordan ever toed up against.

Oh I agree, the game is about more than just stats. I have actually been preaching that lately. That being said no matter how you try to slice it, Jordan is just a far overall better basketball player than russell.

Especially when you take everything into consideration. If you wanna talk strictly winning then yeah russell over jordan.

  Just out of curiosity, how many games did you see Russell play in?

I wasn't alive back then but I saw alot of games, don't know how many.

  So if you've seen a lot of Russell's games, how many blocks a game would you estimate he averaged?

Um, not sure, alot. Seven? He blocked alot of shots that's all I know for sure. Between 6-9 ? Maybe? Lol Lets just say alot.

  So 2-3 times what anyone's ever averaged? That's pretty impressive. I've heard estimates in the 8-10 range which sounds crazy, but so does 50 points or 27 rebounds a game.

Oh for sure, I'm not saying russell is some bum lol. I got him in the top 10 of all time.

Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
« Reply #112 on: March 05, 2013, 09:40:11 PM »

Offline ejk3489

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I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

I find this very hard to believe for a guy who was the cornerstone of 11 championships and was the league MVP 5 times.

I mean, the award was named after him for a reason...