Author Topic: Chris Wilcox was supposed to be traded over collins.  (Read 3491 times)

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Re: Chris Wilcox was supposed to be traded over collins.
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2013, 11:13:02 AM »

Offline Snakehead

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The believe that Wilcox is only an asset offensively because of Rondo is a completely flawed premise.
Wilcox is only an asset when he gets open dunks. Glad this continues without Rondo :)

And I'm more than fine with that, it's why he's a role player.

It means defenders can't cheat off him, and if they do, he'll make them pay. With Collins you didn't have that, in fact, it's part of what killed us in when he was subbed to guard Howard. Dwight stopped guarding Collins at all, and bothered all our efforts to penetrate and post Green who had an advantage.


But Wilcox can't guard centers.  How's that matchup work for you on the other end?

There is a downside as well.


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Re: Chris Wilcox was supposed to be traded over collins.
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2013, 11:14:46 AM »

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I think Wilcox is the better player, but I think Collins may have been more what our team needed, especially without Rondo (who makes Wilcox much more effective).

Rondo doesn't make Wilcox much more effective. Don't know what Collins brought that was so much needed than Wilcox.

Everyone mentioned, "duh, defense"... well, Collins sucked defensively, and was incredibly hurtful on offense.

Coillins is better on defense than Wilcox is, even if you want to knock Collins which I am more than willing to do.  And he has size to match up with centers.  He is better man to man and better on rotations.

And how does Rondo not make Wilcox better?  All Wilcox is offensively is catch and finish and Rondo is the best passer in the league...  Confusing why you would say that.

Because Wilcox's production hasn't changed with or without Rondo. He feeds off well off Pierce as well, from the improved ball movement we have been seeing since Rondo is out, and from running the floor.

The believe that Wilcox is only an asset offensively because of Rondo is a completely flawed premise.

The numbers are pretty similar I'll give you that.  Losing your best passer hurts him though, to me.  You should just say the production though, because how would losing your best passer hurting a guy who basically only scores open dunks be a "flawed premise"?  I would say the premise is quite sound.

And his defense is worse than Collins' and he doesn't have the size.  So that hurts you.  We need inside scoring but we need size VERY badly.

I really feel the defense is worse than Collins to be an overstatement. For every "hey look, Collins rotated well", there were a plethora of other miscues, and slow to get to his spots moments, and simply abused by more athletic players in the post and from penetration.

We do need size, but using it as an excuse to play Collins over Wilcox is just a bad decision. Ideally Wilcox should have been spending more time as a PF, preferably alongside KG. They've barely played together this season, despite being one of the best big man duos this team could've put on the floor all year, from both a defensive and offensive perspective.

Wilcox is being used too much as a center, as an anchor to a defense, and he's really not suited to play that role.

If it were me, I'd do my best to add another center, and just start Wilcox with KG and have Bass come off the bench. That will be a better balance for this team, I've felt it to be true since last season, and it remains true today for me.

Re: Chris Wilcox was supposed to be traded over collins.
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2013, 11:16:41 AM »

Online BudweiserCeltic

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The believe that Wilcox is only an asset offensively because of Rondo is a completely flawed premise.
Wilcox is only an asset when he gets open dunks. Glad this continues without Rondo :)

And I'm more than fine with that, it's why he's a role player.

It means defenders can't cheat off him, and if they do, he'll make them pay. With Collins you didn't have that, in fact, it's part of what killed us in when he was subbed to guard Howard. Dwight stopped guarding Collins at all, and bothered all our efforts to penetrate and post Green who had an advantage.


But Wilcox can't guard centers.  How's that matchup work for you on the other end?

There is a downside as well.

He actually was our best defender on Dwight the other night, not that it meant all that much.

I really haven't seen Collins do any better against Centers. Hell he was brought here precisely because he was this supposed Dwight stopper, just to get abused by him.

Also, Doc was using Bass as a center through a stretch... made me want to puke.

Re: Chris Wilcox was supposed to be traded over collins.
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2013, 11:16:59 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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The believe that Wilcox is only an asset offensively because of Rondo is a completely flawed premise.
Wilcox is only an asset when he gets open dunks. Glad this continues without Rondo :)

And I'm more than fine with that, it's why he's a role player.

It means defenders can't cheat off him, and if they do, he'll make them pay. With Collins you didn't have that, in fact, it's part of what killed us in when he was subbed to guard Howard. Dwight stopped guarding Collins at all, and bothered all our efforts to penetrate and post Green who had an advantage.


But Wilcox can't guard centers.  How's that matchup work for you on the other end?

There is a downside as well.
Nope, but as evidenced by the LA game, neither can Collins :)
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Re: Chris Wilcox was supposed to be traded over collins.
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2013, 11:23:07 AM »

Offline Snakehead

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I think Wilcox is the better player, but I think Collins may have been more what our team needed, especially without Rondo (who makes Wilcox much more effective).

Rondo doesn't make Wilcox much more effective. Don't know what Collins brought that was so much needed than Wilcox.

Everyone mentioned, "duh, defense"... well, Collins sucked defensively, and was incredibly hurtful on offense.

Coillins is better on defense than Wilcox is, even if you want to knock Collins which I am more than willing to do.  And he has size to match up with centers.  He is better man to man and better on rotations.

And how does Rondo not make Wilcox better?  All Wilcox is offensively is catch and finish and Rondo is the best passer in the league...  Confusing why you would say that.

Because Wilcox's production hasn't changed with or without Rondo. He feeds off well off Pierce as well, from the improved ball movement we have been seeing since Rondo is out, and from running the floor.

The believe that Wilcox is only an asset offensively because of Rondo is a completely flawed premise.

The numbers are pretty similar I'll give you that.  Losing your best passer hurts him though, to me.  You should just say the production though, because how would losing your best passer hurting a guy who basically only scores open dunks be a "flawed premise"?  I would say the premise is quite sound.

And his defense is worse than Collins' and he doesn't have the size.  So that hurts you.  We need inside scoring but we need size VERY badly.

I really feel the defense is worse the Collins to be an overstatement. For every "hey look, Collins rotated well", there were a plethora of other miscues, and slow to get to his spots moments, and simply abused by more athletic players in the post and from penetration.

We do need size, but using it as an excuse to play Collins over Wilcox is just a bad decision. Ideally Wilcox should have been spending more time as a PF, preferably alongside KG. They've barely played together this season, despite being one of the best big man duos this team could've put on the floor all year, from both a defensive and offensive perspective.

Wilcox is being used too much as a center, as an anchor to a defense, and he's really not suited to play that role.

If it were me, I'd do my best to add another center, and just start Wilcox with KG and have Bass come off the bench. That will be a better balance for this team, I've felt it to be true since last season, and it remains true today for me.

Yeah don't get me wrong, I am not a Collins fan in the slightest.  I couldn't believe when we signed him.

That being said, I do agree with your idea of playing Wilcox with KG ideally... however you are failing here to look at any reality of a rotation, before or after our injusties (and especially after, in our current situation).

If you start KG at C and Wilcox at PF... who comes in for KG?  You are saying you want o play Bass at C?  Someone has to play C and you're basically disregarding this with all of your reasoning.

Wilcox's defensive numbers vs PFs are much better than they are vs C's but the issue is we don't have a choice.  He must play center, especially now without Collins.  And Collin's defensive numbers were better vs C's than Wilcox's are.

This is just the reality.  I understand why Danny went undersized, he didn't want to pay the premium for Centers, but this is the cost of that.

Another point, in addition, is that there is a reason Wilcox can't be played too much in that he is injury prone.

We will see what the Celtics can add, but I doubt whatever it is, especially with true center size, is better than Collins.  Maybe it's someone who can produce more but he will be undersized and we haven't truly solved the problem.


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Re: Chris Wilcox was supposed to be traded over collins.
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2013, 11:24:42 AM »

Offline Snakehead

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The believe that Wilcox is only an asset offensively because of Rondo is a completely flawed premise.
Wilcox is only an asset when he gets open dunks. Glad this continues without Rondo :)

And I'm more than fine with that, it's why he's a role player.

It means defenders can't cheat off him, and if they do, he'll make them pay. With Collins you didn't have that, in fact, it's part of what killed us in when he was subbed to guard Howard. Dwight stopped guarding Collins at all, and bothered all our efforts to penetrate and post Green who had an advantage.


But Wilcox can't guard centers.  How's that matchup work for you on the other end?

There is a downside as well.
Nope, but as evidenced by the LA game, neither can Collins :)

HA.  Again I reiterate I am far from a fan of Collins game.  But his defense is better suited to what the Celtics need.  The numbers are better and we need the size.  I would love to have the option to grab a better 7' but it isn't happening.


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Re: Chris Wilcox was supposed to be traded over collins.
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2013, 11:30:41 AM »

Online BudweiserCeltic

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I think Wilcox is the better player, but I think Collins may have been more what our team needed, especially without Rondo (who makes Wilcox much more effective).

Rondo doesn't make Wilcox much more effective. Don't know what Collins brought that was so much needed than Wilcox.

Everyone mentioned, "duh, defense"... well, Collins sucked defensively, and was incredibly hurtful on offense.

Coillins is better on defense than Wilcox is, even if you want to knock Collins which I am more than willing to do.  And he has size to match up with centers.  He is better man to man and better on rotations.

And how does Rondo not make Wilcox better?  All Wilcox is offensively is catch and finish and Rondo is the best passer in the league...  Confusing why you would say that.

Because Wilcox's production hasn't changed with or without Rondo. He feeds off well off Pierce as well, from the improved ball movement we have been seeing since Rondo is out, and from running the floor.

The believe that Wilcox is only an asset offensively because of Rondo is a completely flawed premise.

The numbers are pretty similar I'll give you that.  Losing your best passer hurts him though, to me.  You should just say the production though, because how would losing your best passer hurting a guy who basically only scores open dunks be a "flawed premise"?  I would say the premise is quite sound.

And his defense is worse than Collins' and he doesn't have the size.  So that hurts you.  We need inside scoring but we need size VERY badly.

I really feel the defense is worse the Collins to be an overstatement. For every "hey look, Collins rotated well", there were a plethora of other miscues, and slow to get to his spots moments, and simply abused by more athletic players in the post and from penetration.

We do need size, but using it as an excuse to play Collins over Wilcox is just a bad decision. Ideally Wilcox should have been spending more time as a PF, preferably alongside KG. They've barely played together this season, despite being one of the best big man duos this team could've put on the floor all year, from both a defensive and offensive perspective.

Wilcox is being used too much as a center, as an anchor to a defense, and he's really not suited to play that role.

If it were me, I'd do my best to add another center, and just start Wilcox with KG and have Bass come off the bench. That will be a better balance for this team, I've felt it to be true since last season, and it remains true today for me.

Yeah don't get me wrong, I am not a Collins fan in the slightest.  I couldn't believe when we signed him.

That being said, I do agree with your idea of playing Wilcox with KG ideally... however you are failing here to look at any reality of a rotation, before or after our injusties (and especially after, in our current situation).

If you start KG at C and Wilcox at PF... who comes in for KG?  You are saying you want o play Bass at C?  Someone has to play C and you're basically disregarding this with all of your reasoning.

Wilcox's defensive numbers vs PFs are much better than they are vs C's but the issue is we don't have a choice.  He must play center, especially now without Collins.  And Collin's defensive numbers were better vs C's than Wilcox's are.

This is just the reality.  I understand why Danny went undersized, he didn't want to pay the premium for Centers, but this is the cost of that.

Another point, in addition, is that there is a reason Wilcox can't be played too much in that he is injury prone.

We will see what the Celtics can add, but I doubt whatever it is, especially with true center size, is better than Collins.  Maybe it's someone who can produce more but he will be undersized and we haven't truly solved the problem.

Oh, I agree that we needed Wilcox on the bench for proper rotation basis, which is mainly why the loss of Darko early in the season was such a blow for me. In addition to the emergence of Sully, who can't play together with Bass, created a perfect storm in which the only place that it made sense to play Wilcox was off the bench.

What allows this is Wilcox's versatility, which suffered due to the limitations of other players in our roster to play multiple positions in any capacity of effectiveness.

That's why I was so bullish early on to trade Bass, it would've fixed a lot of our rotation issues. And they're kinda fixed now that Sully is down, but now we need that extra big capable of being a rotation player to make it work. Else, Wilcox is doomed to play in a role he was not meant for, only for spot situations.

Re: Chris Wilcox was supposed to be traded over collins.
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2013, 11:32:40 AM »

Offline Kane3387

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The difference between wilcox and collins is literally nothing in the grand scheme of how this team does in the post season.

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Re: Chris Wilcox was supposed to be traded over collins.
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2013, 11:34:56 AM »

Offline Snakehead

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I think Wilcox is the better player, but I think Collins may have been more what our team needed, especially without Rondo (who makes Wilcox much more effective).

Rondo doesn't make Wilcox much more effective. Don't know what Collins brought that was so much needed than Wilcox.

Everyone mentioned, "duh, defense"... well, Collins sucked defensively, and was incredibly hurtful on offense.

Coillins is better on defense than Wilcox is, even if you want to knock Collins which I am more than willing to do.  And he has size to match up with centers.  He is better man to man and better on rotations.

And how does Rondo not make Wilcox better?  All Wilcox is offensively is catch and finish and Rondo is the best passer in the league...  Confusing why you would say that.

Because Wilcox's production hasn't changed with or without Rondo. He feeds off well off Pierce as well, from the improved ball movement we have been seeing since Rondo is out, and from running the floor.

The believe that Wilcox is only an asset offensively because of Rondo is a completely flawed premise.

The numbers are pretty similar I'll give you that.  Losing your best passer hurts him though, to me.  You should just say the production though, because how would losing your best passer hurting a guy who basically only scores open dunks be a "flawed premise"?  I would say the premise is quite sound.

And his defense is worse than Collins' and he doesn't have the size.  So that hurts you.  We need inside scoring but we need size VERY badly.

I really feel the defense is worse the Collins to be an overstatement. For every "hey look, Collins rotated well", there were a plethora of other miscues, and slow to get to his spots moments, and simply abused by more athletic players in the post and from penetration.

We do need size, but using it as an excuse to play Collins over Wilcox is just a bad decision. Ideally Wilcox should have been spending more time as a PF, preferably alongside KG. They've barely played together this season, despite being one of the best big man duos this team could've put on the floor all year, from both a defensive and offensive perspective.

Wilcox is being used too much as a center, as an anchor to a defense, and he's really not suited to play that role.

If it were me, I'd do my best to add another center, and just start Wilcox with KG and have Bass come off the bench. That will be a better balance for this team, I've felt it to be true since last season, and it remains true today for me.

Yeah don't get me wrong, I am not a Collins fan in the slightest.  I couldn't believe when we signed him.

That being said, I do agree with your idea of playing Wilcox with KG ideally... however you are failing here to look at any reality of a rotation, before or after our injusties (and especially after, in our current situation).

If you start KG at C and Wilcox at PF... who comes in for KG?  You are saying you want o play Bass at C?  Someone has to play C and you're basically disregarding this with all of your reasoning.

Wilcox's defensive numbers vs PFs are much better than they are vs C's but the issue is we don't have a choice.  He must play center, especially now without Collins.  And Collin's defensive numbers were better vs C's than Wilcox's are.

This is just the reality.  I understand why Danny went undersized, he didn't want to pay the premium for Centers, but this is the cost of that.

Another point, in addition, is that there is a reason Wilcox can't be played too much in that he is injury prone.

We will see what the Celtics can add, but I doubt whatever it is, especially with true center size, is better than Collins.  Maybe it's someone who can produce more but he will be undersized and we haven't truly solved the problem.

Oh, I agree that we needed Wilcox on the bench for proper rotation basis, which is mainly why the loss of Darko early in the season was such a blow for me. In addition to the emergence of Sully, who can't play together with Bass, created a perfect storm in which the only place that it made sense to play Wilcox was off the bench.

What allows this is Wilcox's versatility, which suffered due to the limitations of other players in our roster to play multiple positions in any capacity of effectiveness.

That's why I was so bullish early on to trade Bass, it would've fixed a lot of our rotation issues. And they're kinda fixed now that Sully is down, but now we need that extra big capable of being a rotation player to make it work. Else, Wilcox is doomed to play in a role he was not meant for, only for spot situations.

Yeah good points here.

I especially am not a fan of Bass with how he has played this year, but I don't know if he ever had much trade value.

I'm just looking at the situation we find ourselves in and with that I think Collins was more valuable because he could at least guard a C better than our other options.  If we had everyone healthy I'd probably just rather play some of our other options, like Sully, even though that isn't perfect.

As I said, I don't see a signing being the solution either but I'd love to be wrong.  I'm weary on any of these guys actually being any good.


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Re: Chris Wilcox was supposed to be traded over collins.
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2013, 12:47:46 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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Chris Wilcox fits so much better with the aggressive, active, athletic, up-tempo style that Danny and Doc seem to be building for the future of this season, as well as the future beyond this season. 

I'm thrilled that Chris Wilcox is still a Celtic. 
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Re: Chris Wilcox was supposed to be traded over collins.
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2013, 12:58:27 AM »

Offline CelticConcourse

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The difference between wilcox and collins is literally nothing in the grand scheme of how this team does in the post season.

Unless we play the Pacers and Hibbert or the Nets and Lopez (possible)
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Re: Chris Wilcox was supposed to be traded over collins.
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2013, 01:19:47 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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The difference between wilcox and collins is literally nothing in the grand scheme of how this team does in the post season.

Wilcox provides decent defense and an athletic rolling threat against larger 4s. This different look (from Green or Bass at the 4) is an asset in any format. Collins provided a missing defender against Lopez, not Hibbert (who isn't the game changer Lopez is).

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Re: Chris Wilcox was supposed to be traded over collins.
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2013, 01:24:54 AM »

Offline bfrombleacher

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Here's my speculation of (hopefully) what happened (because it would not make sense to me otherwise):

Danny initially offered Fab + Leandro for Crawford.

The Wiz just wanted to clear the cap space and ask for Wilcox.

Danny accepts, Wilcox declines.

Impasse...

Wiz says screw it and takes Collins + Leandro.

Re: Chris Wilcox was supposed to be traded over collins.
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2013, 11:09:09 AM »

Offline Surferdad

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The difference between wilcox and collins is literally nothing in the grand scheme of how this team does in the post season.

Wilcox provides decent defense and an athletic rolling threat against larger 4s. This different look (from Green or Bass at the 4) is an asset in any format. Collins provided a missing defender against Lopez, not Hibbert (who isn't the game changer Lopez is).
Hibbert is no slouch.  Collins would be more helpful against Hibbert, Lopez, Howard etc than Wilcox.  As someone else said, this is just reality.  That said, OF COURSE Wilcox is the more talented player in that he actually can hit a midrange jumpshot.  However, JCraw is far more talented than either of them so the move was to upgrade overall talent and get younger.  Once Ainge sign another big man to replace Collins, this entire issue will be moot.

Re: Chris Wilcox was supposed to be traded over collins.
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2013, 11:15:52 AM »

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