Author Topic: Totally and utterly disappointed  (Read 5751 times)

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Re: Totally and utterly disappointed
« Reply #120 on: February 23, 2013, 05:36:45 PM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

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id rather watch mediocre to above average ball with vets than a team that stinks full of young guys with "upside".

people on boards like this always prefer potential and rebuilding, which i just dont understand. give me an aging pierce and kg over bledsoe, d jordan, etc any day of the week.

i feel sad for those fans who have the championship or nothing mentality. it is completely unrealistic lol

I feel bad for people that still can't comprehend ......

Comprehend what?

That just because a season is championship or bust doesn't mean we didn't enjoy the season if it ends the wrong way. It just means it was a bust not a success and we are extremely disappointed by the way it ended but we still enjoyed the ride. Also the fact that we *Most celtics fans* want to either be in serious contention for a title or seriously working on getting back to that point. Not just staying middle of the pack and being satisfied.

Point taken.

It just seems, to me, that some of us wanted to see KG and Paul go.

For me, I just didn't see how whatever was coming back for them would've helped us - either now or in the future.

Doc Rivers, as one of (IMO) the top 2-3 coaches in the league, would've taken 2-3 yrs, perhaps even longer, to get a DeAndre, Kris Humphries, Brooks, etc - lineup to work. He is methodical.

I think that if Danny would've gone THAT route, we could've seen an even WORSE rebuild than before in the 90s...

...while seeing Chris Paul gloat in his 1st championship. KG would've helped to bring that to him.

Thankfully, KG chose BOS...I'm thinking he still sees a shot for a banner, here...even it is so small a shot.

Oftentimes, that's all you need - is a small shot.

I'm estatic that Danny didn't blow it up.

I hear all that you're saying. I hope you're right. Just playing devil's advocate for a minute. Had Danny made those trades. Given that some people here have said that they don't have to win a title every year, couldn't you have enjoyed that "alternate ride" just the same. I'm sure either way Danny would've had a plan. What I don't understand is the finality some people seem to be attributing to trades and the assets we would've gotten back.

Anything we might've gotten back could be flipped again for other assets. Given how fruitless trying to acquire cap space to lure free agents is, or trying to tank for that matter. Acquiring assets to flip for other assets in search of the right mix seemed to work before. In the end, this is all a moot point. KG wasn't going to remove his no trade. Danny didn't like the offers for Paul so we stick. It's done.

I just don't get the "enjoy the ride" attitude because "you can't win every year". If we're just enjoying the ride, why does it matter if we make the deal or not. Can we not enjoy the ride of grooming new assets? I mean we have a small shot to win either way so what's the difference to those people? Again, it matters. Because we're not Golden St. We're not Milwaukee. We're not Atlanta. If we're not trying to win a title, or working towards building a team that has a chance to win one, what are we doing here? This franchise is about more than that.

This is where the "make the deal" crowd is wrong.  KG and Pierce have won a championship, been to 2, been to multiple conference finals, and have done no worse then lose to the eventual Eastern Conference champions EVERY SINGLE YEAR since they have been together.

People forget this. 

Ok, let's grant that last year there was some luck involved with the Rose injury.  But don't tell me that the series against Atlanta or Philly was evidence of a bad team getting lucky to make it to the EC Finals.  Remember '08 playoffs?  The 60-win championship team that had to go to a Game 7 against an Atlanta squad that was almost 10 games under .500?  What was that all about?

The last half of the 2012 season, with KG at center, the Celtics were playing .700 ball.  That is championship-caliber play.

Assuming that KG and Pierce have not taken a step back this season (and the evidence is that they haven't), why can't we expect something similar in 2013? 

That's the point.  The "make the deal" crowd assumes that trading KG and Pierce would be some type of lateral move, leaving us a competitive team with the same "chance" to win the East.

Let me reiterate:  since KG and Pierce have been together, the only team that has ousted them from the playoffs eventually went to the NBA finals.  That should tell you all you need to know about those two players, how good they make this team, and exactly why I would never trade them until they prove they can't contend anymore.

And that is NOT this year.

You mean besides the fact that our allstar point guard is done for the season?

Re: Totally and utterly disappointed
« Reply #121 on: February 23, 2013, 06:13:59 PM »

Offline Boston Garden Leprechaun

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id rather watch mediocre to above average ball with vets than a team that stinks full of young guys with "upside".

people on boards like this always prefer potential and rebuilding, which i just dont understand. give me an aging pierce and kg over bledsoe, d jordan, etc any day of the week.

i feel sad for those fans who have the championship or nothing mentality. it is completely unrealistic lol

I feel bad for people that still can't comprehend ......

Comprehend what?

That just because a season is championship or bust doesn't mean we didn't enjoy the season if it ends the wrong way. It just means it was a bust not a success and we are extremely disappointed by the way it ended but we still enjoyed the ride. Also the fact that we *Most celtics fans* want to either be in serious contention for a title or seriously working on getting back to that point. Not just staying middle of the pack and being satisfied.

Point taken.

It just seems, to me, that some of us wanted to see KG and Paul go.

For me, I just didn't see how whatever was coming back for them would've helped us - either now or in the future.

Doc Rivers, as one of (IMO) the top 2-3 coaches in the league, would've taken 2-3 yrs, perhaps even longer, to get a DeAndre, Kris Humphries, Brooks, etc - lineup to work. He is methodical.

I think that if Danny would've gone THAT route, we could've seen an even WORSE rebuild than before in the 90s...

...while seeing Chris Paul gloat in his 1st championship. KG would've helped to bring that to him.

Thankfully, KG chose BOS...I'm thinking he still sees a shot for a banner, here...even it is so small a shot.

Oftentimes, that's all you need - is a small shot.

I'm estatic that Danny didn't blow it up.

I hear all that you're saying. I hope you're right. Just playing devil's advocate for a minute. Had Danny made those trades. Given that some people here have said that they don't have to win a title every year, couldn't you have enjoyed that "alternate ride" just the same. I'm sure either way Danny would've had a plan. What I don't understand is the finality some people seem to be attributing to trades and the assets we would've gotten back.

Anything we might've gotten back could be flipped again for other assets. Given how fruitless trying to acquire cap space to lure free agents is, or trying to tank for that matter. Acquiring assets to flip for other assets in search of the right mix seemed to work before. In the end, this is all a moot point. KG wasn't going to remove his no trade. Danny didn't like the offers for Paul so we stick. It's done.

I just don't get the "enjoy the ride" attitude because "you can't win every year". If we're just enjoying the ride, why does it matter if we make the deal or not. Can we not enjoy the ride of grooming new assets? I mean we have a small shot to win either way so what's the difference to those people? Again, it matters. Because we're not Golden St. We're not Milwaukee. We're not Atlanta. If we're not trying to win a title, or working towards building a team that has a chance to win one, what are we doing here? This franchise is about more than that.

This is where the "make the deal" crowd is wrong.  KG and Pierce have won a championship, been to 2, been to multiple conference finals, and have done no worse then lose to the eventual Eastern Conference champions EVERY SINGLE YEAR since they have been together.

People forget this. 

Ok, let's grant that last year there was some luck involved with the Rose injury.  But don't tell me that the series against Atlanta or Philly was evidence of a bad team getting lucky to make it to the EC Finals.  Remember '08 playoffs?  The 60-win championship team that had to go to a Game 7 against an Atlanta squad that was almost 10 games under .500?  What was that all about?

The last half of the 2012 season, with KG at center, the Celtics were playing .700 ball.  That is championship-caliber play.

Assuming that KG and Pierce have not taken a step back this season (and the evidence is that they haven't), why can't we expect something similar in 2013? 

That's the point.  The "make the deal" crowd assumes that trading KG and Pierce would be some type of lateral move, leaving us a competitive team with the same "chance" to win the East.

Let me reiterate:  since KG and Pierce have been together, the only team that has ousted them from the playoffs eventually went to the NBA finals.  That should tell you all you need to know about those two players, how good they make this team, and exactly why I would never trade them until they prove they can't contend anymore.

And that is NOT this year.

You mean besides the fact that our allstar point guard is done for the season?

Thanks debbie downer

Re: Totally and utterly disappointed
« Reply #122 on: February 23, 2013, 06:25:10 PM »

Offline mctyson

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You mean besides the fact that our allstar point guard is done for the season?

If that was your signal to trade KG and Pierce, then I can't necessarily argue with that, except to say that the team has played well without him so far.  I would also say that KG and Pierce are both signed for next season too.

Rondo hopefully will be back.  Having him back without KG and Pierce would not really be a good thing.

Re: Totally and utterly disappointed
« Reply #123 on: February 23, 2013, 06:31:24 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Celtics are about winning - and mostly about winning championships, not division titles.

Celtics are also about being a unique franchise in a league full of cut-outs - a unique franchise that values its players and takes care of them and doesn't treat them like chess pieces. remember Tommy talking about Boston being a team where you felt safe buying a house because you knew that even when you had lost a step, you stayed to be a role player and to teach the young guys how to be a Celtic.

sometimes those two values are in complete conflict. i have been in agony ever since Game 7 2010 and have wanted another banner for this group in the worst way. i also would never have traded Bird, Parish, McHale, DJ or Ainge and i wouldn't trade Garnett or Pierce either. i know this is a different time and all, but some values should not be compromised.

sometimes in life, you ride it out with what's in your heart and have faith that things will work out.

I think this is a fantastic post.


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D. West / R. Anderson / C. Copeland
L. Deng / K. Singler / D. Rudez
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K. Irving / S. Livingston / S. Blake

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Re: Totally and utterly disappointed
« Reply #124 on: February 23, 2013, 06:34:18 PM »

Offline bucknersrevenge

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id rather watch mediocre to above average ball with vets than a team that stinks full of young guys with "upside".

people on boards like this always prefer potential and rebuilding, which i just dont understand. give me an aging pierce and kg over bledsoe, d jordan, etc any day of the week.

i feel sad for those fans who have the championship or nothing mentality. it is completely unrealistic lol

I feel bad for people that still can't comprehend ......

Comprehend what?

That just because a season is championship or bust doesn't mean we didn't enjoy the season if it ends the wrong way. It just means it was a bust not a success and we are extremely disappointed by the way it ended but we still enjoyed the ride. Also the fact that we *Most celtics fans* want to either be in serious contention for a title or seriously working on getting back to that point. Not just staying middle of the pack and being satisfied.

Point taken.

It just seems, to me, that some of us wanted to see KG and Paul go.

For me, I just didn't see how whatever was coming back for them would've helped us - either now or in the future.

Doc Rivers, as one of (IMO) the top 2-3 coaches in the league, would've taken 2-3 yrs, perhaps even longer, to get a DeAndre, Kris Humphries, Brooks, etc - lineup to work. He is methodical.

I think that if Danny would've gone THAT route, we could've seen an even WORSE rebuild than before in the 90s...

...while seeing Chris Paul gloat in his 1st championship. KG would've helped to bring that to him.

Thankfully, KG chose BOS...I'm thinking he still sees a shot for a banner, here...even it is so small a shot.

Oftentimes, that's all you need - is a small shot.

I'm estatic that Danny didn't blow it up.

I hear all that you're saying. I hope you're right. Just playing devil's advocate for a minute. Had Danny made those trades. Given that some people here have said that they don't have to win a title every year, couldn't you have enjoyed that "alternate ride" just the same. I'm sure either way Danny would've had a plan. What I don't understand is the finality some people seem to be attributing to trades and the assets we would've gotten back.

Anything we might've gotten back could be flipped again for other assets. Given how fruitless trying to acquire cap space to lure free agents is, or trying to tank for that matter. Acquiring assets to flip for other assets in search of the right mix seemed to work before. In the end, this is all a moot point. KG wasn't going to remove his no trade. Danny didn't like the offers for Paul so we stick. It's done.

I just don't get the "enjoy the ride" attitude because "you can't win every year". If we're just enjoying the ride, why does it matter if we make the deal or not. Can we not enjoy the ride of grooming new assets? I mean we have a small shot to win either way so what's the difference to those people? Again, it matters. Because we're not Golden St. We're not Milwaukee. We're not Atlanta. If we're not trying to win a title, or working towards building a team that has a chance to win one, what are we doing here? This franchise is about more than that.

This is where the "make the deal" crowd is wrong.  KG and Pierce have won a championship, been to 2, been to multiple conference finals, and have done no worse then lose to the eventual Eastern Conference champions EVERY SINGLE YEAR since they have been together.

People forget this. 

Ok, let's grant that last year there was some luck involved with the Rose injury.  But don't tell me that the series against Atlanta or Philly was evidence of a bad team getting lucky to make it to the EC Finals.  Remember '08 playoffs?  The 60-win championship team that had to go to a Game 7 against an Atlanta squad that was almost 10 games under .500?  What was that all about?

The last half of the 2012 season, with KG at center, the Celtics were playing .700 ball.  That is championship-caliber play.

Assuming that KG and Pierce have not taken a step back this season (and the evidence is that they haven't), why can't we expect something similar in 2013? 

That's the point.  The "make the deal" crowd assumes that trading KG and Pierce would be some type of lateral move, leaving us a competitive team with the same "chance" to win the East.

Let me reiterate:  since KG and Pierce have been together, the only team that has ousted them from the playoffs eventually went to the NBA finals.  That should tell you all you need to know about those two players, how good they make this team, and exactly why I would never trade them until they prove they can't contend anymore.

And that is NOT this year.

Here is what you don't understand about those "make a deal" people or even those "I have doubts on whether this team is a serious contender" people. I don't think you're seeing the same evidence other people are. I see a team ever-reliant on very good but older players who are breaking down.

Last year after only a 66 game season, Paul succumbed to an MCL issue that reduced his level of play. KG's minutes were monitored to the Nth degree last year and he still ran out of gas at the end of the ECF. This year, a year older and Paul is already coming down with pinched nerves and KG is no longer even arguing about taking games off. There are 30 more games left in the regular season. Again, Paul and KG are warriors. No 2 guys I'd rather have in a foxhole. But the funny thing about evidence of fall off. There's none there until there is. There is sufficient enough evidence to suggest our 2 fearless leaders are hurting more than they will ever say. And despite all the concessions, it may not be enough.
Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity...

Re: Totally and utterly disappointed
« Reply #125 on: February 23, 2013, 06:37:42 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

  • Ed Macauley
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Celtics are about winning - and mostly about winning championships, not division titles.

Celtics are also about being a unique franchise in a league full of cut-outs - a unique franchise that values its players and takes care of them and doesn't treat them like chess pieces. remember Tommy talking about Boston being a team where you felt safe buying a house because you knew that even when you had lost a step, you stayed to be a role player and to teach the young guys how to be a Celtic.

sometimes those two values are in complete conflict. i have been in agony ever since Game 7 2010 and have wanted another banner for this group in the worst way. i also would never have traded Bird, Parish, McHale, DJ or Ainge and i wouldn't trade Garnett or Pierce either. i know this is a different time and all, but some values should not be compromised.

sometimes in life, you ride it out with what's in your heart and have faith that things will work out.

remember that the 90's era flatline was much more about losing Len Bias and Reggie Lewis than it was holding onto veterans that deserved to retire here. what franchise could have endured those kind of losses and recovered quickly ? the early 2000's are on Pitino.

Well Said.

I think that, for me, by the time the Pitino Years had rolled around, I was about as numb to the losing as any fan was.

If Danny can hold onto Pierce and KG, and even Rondo to some extent - then this franchises' path the to the future will be secure.

The Boston Celtics are unlike most NBA franchises, save perhaps the LA Lakers. There is a TON of tradition, here. That is why the Lakers played with emotion and fire after Kobe made his comments about Dr. Buss passing.

Dr. Buss was, IMO, their Red Auerbach, to some extent.

Danny was, I'm sure - just being a prudent GM. But as a former Celtic and starter with one of the best starting 5's in NBA history, I'm SURE he has some emotional attachment to this team and KG and Paul....and for that I'm glad.

Danny has, for the most part - done right by this team and players. I was a bit sore about Perk and Ray, but Ray pretty much left of his own choice, and Perk's trade, while sad - was understandable.

For what it's worth, KG and Paul will retire as Celtics, and keep that long tradition moving forward.

Cousy...Russell..Havlicek...Cowens...Larry/Chief/McHale/DJ/Ainge....Walker (Yes, Walker - he did his best with what he had)...and now KG and Paul.

I'm glad things turned out the way they did last Thur.

Re: Totally and utterly disappointed
« Reply #126 on: February 23, 2013, 10:49:26 PM »

Offline dlpin

  • Rajon Rondo
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Here is what you don't understand about those "make a deal" people or even those "I have doubts on whether this team is a serious contender" people. I don't think you're seeing the same evidence other people are. I see a team ever-reliant on very good but older players who are breaking down.

Last year after only a 66 game season, Paul succumbed to an MCL issue that reduced his level of play. KG's minutes were monitored to the Nth degree last year and he still ran out of gas at the end of the ECF. This year, a year older and Paul is already coming down with pinched nerves and KG is no longer even arguing about taking games off. There are 30 more games left in the regular season. Again, Paul and KG are warriors. No 2 guys I'd rather have in a foxhole. But the funny thing about evidence of fall off. There's none there until there is. There is sufficient enough evidence to suggest our 2 fearless leaders are hurting more than they will ever say. And despite all the concessions, it may not be enough.

The question one has to ask, when deciding to make a deal, is not whether our current team can win anything. It is whether the team we'd get would.

Is a team of :
Bledsoe/Rondo
Bradley/Brooks
Green/Lee
Humphries/Bass
Jordan/Sully

any closer to a title? Are any of those, other than Rondo, cornerstone pieces? Are they cheap and with enough potential that they could land us a superstar? The question is quite clearly no. Then why do the trade?

 

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