Author Topic: Totally and utterly disappointed  (Read 5625 times)

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Re: Totally and utterly disappointed
« Reply #90 on: February 23, 2013, 10:50:30 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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id rather watch mediocre to above average ball with vets than a team that stinks full of young guys with "upside".

people on boards like this always prefer potential and rebuilding, which i just dont understand. give me an aging pierce and kg over bledsoe, d jordan, etc any day of the week.

i feel sad for those fans who have the championship or nothing mentality. it is completely unrealistic lol

I feel bad for people that still can't comprehend ......

Comprehend what?

That just because a season is championship or bust doesn't mean we didn't enjoy the season if it ends the wrong way. It just means it was a bust not a success and we are extremely disappointed by the way it ended but we still enjoyed the ride. Also the fact that we *Most celtics fans* want to either be in serious contention for a title or seriously working on getting back to that point. Not just staying middle of the pack and being satisfied.

Point taken.

It just seems, to me, that some of us wanted to see KG and Paul go.

For me, I just didn't see how whatever was coming back for them would've helped us - either now or in the future.

Doc Rivers, as one of (IMO) the top 2-3 coaches in the league, would've taken 2-3 yrs, perhaps even longer, to get a DeAndre, Kris Humphries, Brooks, etc - lineup to work. He is methodical.

I think that if Danny would've gone THAT route, we could've seen an even WORSE rebuild than before in the 90s...

...while seeing Chris Paul gloat in his 1st championship. KG would've helped to bring that to him.

Thankfully, KG chose BOS...I'm thinking he still sees a shot for a banner, here...even it is so small a shot.

Oftentimes, that's all you need - is a small shot.

I'm estatic that Danny didn't blow it up.

Re: Totally and utterly disappointed
« Reply #91 on: February 23, 2013, 10:58:35 AM »

Offline snively

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I'm disappointed, but not crushed. 
Pick 2 Team: Rockets (McHale)
PG M. Chalmers ($4 mil) SG J. Harden ($5.8 mil) SF W. Chandler ($5.9) PF Nene ($13) C S. Hawes ($6.5) 6th man: Ginobli ($14.1) 7th man: Marv Williams ($8.3) Enforcers: F. Ezeli ($1), C. Hayes ($5.5) Bench Marksman: A. Morrow ($4) Young Gun: R. Jackson ($1.2) Greybeard: P. Prigioni ($.5) Towel-Waver: Mike Scott ($.5)

Re: Totally and utterly disappointed
« Reply #92 on: February 23, 2013, 11:05:58 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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The way I see it? We have a starting PG/SG in AB for the future, "This" Jeff Green (of the last month or so) as our future SF, Jared Sullinger as a probable starting PF.

That right there is 3 quality players in our starting lineup for the future..some may disagree, but I like those three better than the future I saw for BOS way back in the early 90s.

If I had a knock on that future lineup, I'd want a bit more length up front, but Jared even showed flashes this season of defending bigger players.

At the VERY worst, Danny is just stockpiling, showcasing some players for another KG-like trade....after all, he did this in the mid 2000's and it got us KG and Ray Allen.

I'm just being patient and enjoying the ride. We have one of the best GMs in all of sports in Danny Ainge, IMO, and he will keep this team competitive.

He's doing the right thing by letting KG and Paul retire as Celtics, and in the meantime he's keeping us as a team that even MIA will not look forward to playing in the post-season.

Re: Totally and utterly disappointed
« Reply #93 on: February 23, 2013, 11:10:36 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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My bad - I totally forgot Courtney Lee...he's another quality starter on this team.

No disappointment for me with this team...now and going forward.

Danny has a plan.

Re: Totally and utterly disappointed
« Reply #94 on: February 23, 2013, 11:34:07 AM »

Offline Kuberski33

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I honestly like this team quite a bit.  I'm really liking they way they're playing post Rondo.  Not sure what the future is going to hold beyond this season but I'm into it enough to want to see how far these guys can go.

Williams intrigues me because I thought what he brings is really what this team lacked the most without Rondo - the ability to move the ball against good defense and get some easy baskets.  Phoenix certainly doesn't qualify as a good defensive team but I saw enough last night to want to see a lot more of this guy to see if he can be part of the equation moving forward.

Re: Totally and utterly disappointed
« Reply #95 on: February 23, 2013, 11:37:48 AM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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At the VERY worst, Danny is just stockpiling, showcasing some players for another KG-like trade....after all, he did this in the mid 2000's and it got us KG and Ray Allen.

I'm just being patient and enjoying the ride. We have one of the best GMs in all of sports in Danny Ainge, IMO, and he will keep this team competitive.


I think it's worth noting that the "Danny strategy" of assembling pieces and bundling them in trade for an MVP-caliber player might have become much easier to implement.

Just looking at the top 10 by PER this year, 4 of them have switched teams recently. (I know the pros and cons of PER, I'm just using it as a single number to get a list of top players).

I think there's probably a way to quantify it, but my impression is that 20 years ago you would not have seen this. The top 10 level players switched teams less often. So, the only way to build was through the draft.


Re: Totally and utterly disappointed
« Reply #96 on: February 23, 2013, 11:53:46 AM »

Offline ItStaysYang

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This team can't win a title as presently constructed.  That means Boston had two real options at the deadline.  Blow it up and look for assets (trading PP and KG and whatever else you could) OR try to add pieces to give the team a better shot at winning this year (that would have likely meant trading Rondo).  Adding Jordan Crawford does nothing for either of those goals.  Boston will likely be the 6th, 7th, or 8th seed and likely will not get out of the second round (if even the first), which just delays the inevitable.  Danny needed to move the team off of center.  Go for it or rebuild.  Sitting pat just wastes the season.  Congrats Danny, another year gone and another year Boston doesn't win the title or enter rebuilding looking for that next title winning group.

Totally and utterly dramatic and a complete waste of time to read

Re: Totally and utterly disappointed
« Reply #97 on: February 23, 2013, 12:09:22 PM »

Offline dark_lord

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id rather watch mediocre to above average ball with vets than a team that stinks full of young guys with "upside".

people on boards like this always prefer potential and rebuilding, which i just dont understand. give me an aging pierce and kg over bledsoe, d jordan, etc any day of the week.

i feel sad for those fans who have the championship or nothing mentality. it is completely unrealistic lol

I feel bad for people that still can't comprehend ......

i comprehend completely. i comprehend that the 90s and majority of the 2000s sucked. i comprehend that the 07-present run has been so much fun to be a part of (not to mention i have been a season ticket holder since the 80s, so being up, then down for so long, and up again has been a blessing).  i comprehend that not winning a championship does not automatically make it unsuccessful.  the ultimate goal is a title, but not winning does not qualify it being a bust. i comprehend that watching pierce and kg in their "twilight years" can be just as much fun as when in their prime, its just different. 

I also comprehend that some people like to make lame youtube vids for attention and think they know all, lol. i comprehend that some people also like to feel like big fish in a small ponds  ;D

Re: Totally and utterly disappointed
« Reply #98 on: February 23, 2013, 12:37:15 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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I can watch the Celtics whether they are good or they stink. Not a big deal. The important part for me is expectations. Expecting them to be better than they are is the most painful.


Re: Totally and utterly disappointed
« Reply #99 on: February 23, 2013, 12:50:32 PM »

Offline saltlover

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When Pierce and KG retire, Boston still won't have cap space for anything more than a MLE type player until 2015 without making major trades.  That strategy was a good one and one I wanted to do, but Ainge blew that ability with his signings this summer.  That is why he needed to make moves, because that was the only way he was going to clear the salary he would have needed to clear.

Not really true.  If Pierce plays through next season, and KG retires when Pierce's contract ends, we should have $8-10 milliion in cap room, assuming we sign Bradley to a reasonable extension ($7-9 mil per year, in my opinion.)  Also, that's assuming that we use the MLE this offseason to sign someone to a multi-year deal.  It's not tons of cap room, but also by that point some of the other deals will be in their final year, and easier to move to clear more space.

If KG doesn't retire until the end of his deal, then you're right, but the entire point was to have almost all the salary come off the books when KG's (and Rondo's) deals expired.  But if KG retires early, we should have a decent amount of cap flexibility the year he retires.

I like Bradley and what he brings to the table, but he is no where close to being a 7-9 million dollar player, and I don't know if he ever will be.
[/quote]

If Bradley were a free agent this year, teams would be falling over to offer him the mid-level, and I'm sure he could get a better deal than that.  In 2014, the mid-level is $5.3 million.  The average salary will probably be a little higher.  I don't think it's unreasonable to think that he would be able to get a decent amount more than that.  I don't think he's a future superstar, and I do think $9 million would on the high side, but above-average players on their second contract make a lot of money.  NBA economics are screwy.

Re: Totally and utterly disappointed
« Reply #100 on: February 23, 2013, 12:52:00 PM »

Online Moranis

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I read these threads and I wonder if people see a different NBA than I do.

I look at all the contending teams, all the recent champions, and it is pretty clear to me what makes a team a contender. You either get one of the top picks in a draft (OKC with Durant and Westbrook, Spurs with Duncan, Clippers, etc), or you use cap space, expiring contracts, and cheap young potential all stars to get a superstar (Miami, us, Lakers, Clippers again).

None of the rumored trades would have done any of that. Deandre Jordan and Eric Bledsoe are nice little role players who will never be superstars, but who would take up quite a chunk of our salary, and the late 1st is not worth much. Same thing for Brooks, Humprhies and another late first. People talk of assets, but the assets have to be worth something. The right to pay 7 digit salaries to role players is not an asset.

The celtics' best rebuilding option is the same as it was: let PP and KG expire or retire, try to use the cap space to land some superstar, and if that doesn't work, use that cap space to generate more picks and trade exceptions.

Times like these that I appreciate that Ainge is the GM.
When Pierce and KG retire, Boston still won't have cap space for anything more than a MLE type player until 2015 without making major trades.  That strategy was a good one and one I wanted to do, but Ainge blew that ability with his signings this summer.  That is why he needed to make moves, because that was the only way he was going to clear the salary he would have needed to clear.

Not really true.  If Pierce plays through next season, and KG retires when Pierce's contract ends, we should have $8-10 milliion in cap room, assuming we sign Bradley to a reasonable extension ($7-9 mil per year, in my opinion.)  Also, that's assuming that we use the MLE this offseason to sign someone to a multi-year deal.  It's not tons of cap room, but also by that point some of the other deals will be in their final year, and easier to move to clear more space.

If KG doesn't retire until the end of his deal, then you're right, but the entire point was to have almost all the salary come off the books when KG's (and Rondo's) deals expired.  But if KG retires early, we should have a decent amount of cap flexibility the year he retires.
When Pierce expires (and assuming Garnett retires), Boston has the following salaries on the books

Rondo - 13
Green - 9.2
Bass - 7
Lee - 5.5
Terry - 5.5

Which equals 40 million.  Add in the 2013 and 2014 rookies, say reasonably 2.5 million combined.  So 7 players 42.5 million.  Then add in Sully and Melo have team options for 2.8 combined.  So now you are up to 45 million for 9 players.  Bradley and Crawford have Q.O.'s of 6.7 combined.  I would guess Crawford could possibly be let go, but Bradley's QO is 3.5.  So say as you indicate Bradley gets a contract starting at 6 million.  Takes you up to 51 million for 10 players.  A couple of cap holds puts you at 52 million, so you basically have cap room for signing a MLE type player.

The way Boston gets cap room is by moving contracts.  That is about the only thing the team can do unless it wants to let Bradley, Crawford, Melo, and Sully all go, which seems unlikely.
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Re: Totally and utterly disappointed
« Reply #101 on: February 23, 2013, 12:56:28 PM »

Online BballTim

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When Pierce and KG retire, Boston still won't have cap space for anything more than a MLE type player until 2015 without making major trades.  That strategy was a good one and one I wanted to do, but Ainge blew that ability with his signings this summer.  That is why he needed to make moves, because that was the only way he was going to clear the salary he would have needed to clear.

Not really true.  If Pierce plays through next season, and KG retires when Pierce's contract ends, we should have $8-10 milliion in cap room, assuming we sign Bradley to a reasonable extension ($7-9 mil per year, in my opinion.)  Also, that's assuming that we use the MLE this offseason to sign someone to a multi-year deal.  It's not tons of cap room, but also by that point some of the other deals will be in their final year, and easier to move to clear more space.

If KG doesn't retire until the end of his deal, then you're right, but the entire point was to have almost all the salary come off the books when KG's (and Rondo's) deals expired.  But if KG retires early, we should have a decent amount of cap flexibility the year he retires.

I like Bradley and what he brings to the table, but he is no where close to being a 7-9 million dollar player, and I don't know if he ever will be.

If Bradley were a free agent this year, teams would be falling over to offer him the mid-level, and I'm sure he could get a better deal than that.  In 2014, the mid-level is $5.3 million.  The average salary will probably be a little higher.  I don't think it's unreasonable to think that he would be able to get a decent amount more than that.  I don't think he's a future superstar, and I do think $9 million would on the high side, but above-average players on their second contract make a lot of money.  NBA economics are screwy.
[/quote]

  I don't know that he's that much different than Lee, I don't think he'd necessarily get twice what Courtney got last year.

Re: Totally and utterly disappointed
« Reply #102 on: February 23, 2013, 01:05:24 PM »

Offline Jon

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I have to say that I agree that I'm a totally agree with the OP.  I'm totally and utterly disappointed too...









...that given our lack of quality big men, no one has started a "bring back Toine" thread yet! 

Where are the loyalists out there!

 ;D

Re: Totally and utterly disappointed
« Reply #103 on: February 23, 2013, 01:05:45 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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When Pierce and KG retire, Boston still won't have cap space for anything more than a MLE type player until 2015 without making major trades.  That strategy was a good one and one I wanted to do, but Ainge blew that ability with his signings this summer.  That is why he needed to make moves, because that was the only way he was going to clear the salary he would have needed to clear.

Not really true.  If Pierce plays through next season, and KG retires when Pierce's contract ends, we should have $8-10 milliion in cap room, assuming we sign Bradley to a reasonable extension ($7-9 mil per year, in my opinion.)  Also, that's assuming that we use the MLE this offseason to sign someone to a multi-year deal.  It's not tons of cap room, but also by that point some of the other deals will be in their final year, and easier to move to clear more space.

If KG doesn't retire until the end of his deal, then you're right, but the entire point was to have almost all the salary come off the books when KG's (and Rondo's) deals expired.  But if KG retires early, we should have a decent amount of cap flexibility the year he retires.

I like Bradley and what he brings to the table, but he is no where close to being a 7-9 million dollar player, and I don't know if he ever will be.

If Bradley were a free agent this year, teams would be falling over to offer him the mid-level, and I'm sure he could get a better deal than that.  In 2014, the mid-level is $5.3 million.  The average salary will probably be a little higher.  I don't think it's unreasonable to think that he would be able to get a decent amount more than that.  I don't think he's a future superstar, and I do think $9 million would on the high side, but above-average players on their second contract make a lot of money.  NBA economics are screwy.

  I don't know that he's that much different than Lee, I don't think he'd necessarily get twice what Courtney got last year.

Yeah, Tony Allen has never even made more than $3 million. Mbah a Moute is making $5 million. Sefolosha signed for 4 years, $14 million (3.5 per).

That seems to be the going rate for a perimeter defensive specialist. Until Bradley shows more on offense, I'd say that's roughly his value. He might command a bit more right now because he has more potential.

Re: Totally and utterly disappointed
« Reply #104 on: February 23, 2013, 01:21:24 PM »

Offline bucknersrevenge

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id rather watch mediocre to above average ball with vets than a team that stinks full of young guys with "upside".

people on boards like this always prefer potential and rebuilding, which i just dont understand. give me an aging pierce and kg over bledsoe, d jordan, etc any day of the week.

i feel sad for those fans who have the championship or nothing mentality. it is completely unrealistic lol

I feel bad for people that still can't comprehend ......

Comprehend what?

That just because a season is championship or bust doesn't mean we didn't enjoy the season if it ends the wrong way. It just means it was a bust not a success and we are extremely disappointed by the way it ended but we still enjoyed the ride. Also the fact that we *Most celtics fans* want to either be in serious contention for a title or seriously working on getting back to that point. Not just staying middle of the pack and being satisfied.

Point taken.

It just seems, to me, that some of us wanted to see KG and Paul go.

For me, I just didn't see how whatever was coming back for them would've helped us - either now or in the future.

Doc Rivers, as one of (IMO) the top 2-3 coaches in the league, would've taken 2-3 yrs, perhaps even longer, to get a DeAndre, Kris Humphries, Brooks, etc - lineup to work. He is methodical.

I think that if Danny would've gone THAT route, we could've seen an even WORSE rebuild than before in the 90s...

...while seeing Chris Paul gloat in his 1st championship. KG would've helped to bring that to him.

Thankfully, KG chose BOS...I'm thinking he still sees a shot for a banner, here...even it is so small a shot.

Oftentimes, that's all you need - is a small shot.

I'm estatic that Danny didn't blow it up.

I hear all that you're saying. I hope you're right. Just playing devil's advocate for a minute. Had Danny made those trades. Given that some people here have said that they don't have to win a title every year, couldn't you have enjoyed that "alternate ride" just the same. I'm sure either way Danny would've had a plan. What I don't understand is the finality some people seem to be attributing to trades and the assets we would've gotten back.

Anything we might've gotten back could be flipped again for other assets. Given how fruitless trying to acquire cap space to lure free agents is, or trying to tank for that matter. Acquiring assets to flip for other assets in search of the right mix seemed to work before. In the end, this is all a moot point. KG wasn't going to remove his no trade. Danny didn't like the offers for Paul so we stick. It's done.

I just don't get the "enjoy the ride" attitude because "you can't win every year". If we're just enjoying the ride, why does it matter if we make the deal or not. Can we not enjoy the ride of grooming new assets? I mean we have a small shot to win either way so what's the difference to those people? Again, it matters. Because we're not Golden St. We're not Milwaukee. We're not Atlanta. If we're not trying to win a title, or working towards building a team that has a chance to win one, what are we doing here? This franchise is about more than that.
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