Author Topic: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?  (Read 5710 times)

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Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« on: February 21, 2013, 07:55:14 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Jeff Green was our 4th best player before the Rondo injury... 3rd best player now.  And yet he's coming off the bench backing up Paul Pierce, because Paul Pierce is still our 2nd best player behind KG and Paul Pierce is our best offensive weapon.

Pierce in the last 11 games (where we have gone 8-3) has averaged 17 points, 9 rebounds and 7 assists.  He's shooting poorly, but he's still clearly the man for this team on offense.

Since Rondo got injured, Jeff Green has averaged 16 off the bench on extremely efficient shooting.  He's averaging a somewhat limited 30 minutes.  The guy is clearly talented.  He's been playing very effective defense, imo.

Two thoughts...

#1 -  I never liked Jeff Green at PF in Seattle.  He's a SF, but he was stuck playing with Durant... so they stuck him at PF.  He's not a great rebounder.  I don't like seeing him play anything other than SF.

#2 -  That said, Bass is crap and is probably best suited as a backup big.  Fwiw, Jeff Green (at 6'9 235) is actually bigger than Josh Smith (only 6'9 225).    Take a look at a team like Miami and they are actually playing Battier more minutes than Haslem... they have Bosh at Center... so basically LeBron is the default "PF" in that "small ball" approach.   I don't see how a starting lineup of PG - Bradly, SG - Lee, SF - Pierce, PF - Green, C - KG would be all that different.  What's the purpose of starting Bass?  he can't create his offense... he fits well with Rondo spotting up for open jumpers, but without him he's kind of dreadful. Is Bass a better defender??

So should we just start Jeff out of position at PF??  Do you think it would be beneficial?  Would it hurt us?  Why shouldn't Jeff be getting 37+ minutes a night?  Start him at PF next to Pierce.  When Pierce gets winded, switch Jeff to SF and bring in one of of the backup bigs.  I'd like to at least see it attempted.  He hasn't started a single game all year. 
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 08:04:06 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2013, 08:06:49 PM »

Offline bfrombleacher

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Kind of wish we got rid of Bass now, as counter intuitive as it sounds (with our lack of bigs*). Just so Doc would stop entrusting him with so many minutes.

It's not even like there's evidence that Green will ever be any good at the PF. It's just that Bass has just been that bad.

Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2013, 08:08:26 PM »

Offline CelticConcourse

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It's not even like there's evidence that Green will ever be any good at the PF. It's just that Bass has just been that bad.

What are you saying?
He played PF a lot in OKC with Durant.
Jeff Green - Top 5 SF

[Kevin Garnett]
"I've always said J. Green is going to be one of the best players to ever play this game"

Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2013, 08:10:47 PM »

Offline bfrombleacher

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It's not even like there's evidence that Green will ever be any good at the PF. It's just that Bass has just been that bad.

What are you saying?
He played PF a lot in OKC with Durant.

He's so much better now playing the bulk of his minutes at the 3.

Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2013, 08:11:48 PM »

Offline BballTim

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  It might be worth a try but you'd have to see how we did on the boards with those lineups. But Green and Bass are both around 30 minutes a game with Sully out, I don't know that shifting 5-6 minutes a game to Green will make a huge difference overall.


Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2013, 08:12:44 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Back in January, in a thread about "trade value" I explained my perception of the team's broken roster:

Quote
  I play a lot of video games.  a 1-5 star scale makes the most sense.  The better you are, the more stars you are.

For instance:

5 stars: Superstar
4 stars: All-Star
3 stars: Starter
2 stars: Rotation Player
1 star: End of the Bench


Rarely do players reach 5 stars.  We're talking LeBron, Durant... maybe Dwight and Chris Paul at their peaks.  Like in video games, players have a current level and a "potential" level.  Like if we were to look at DeMarcus Cousins... his current level is 3.5 stars... with a perceived potential of 4.5 stars.  He might never reach that potential though.

Our roster, imo:

KG in his prime was a 5... now he's a 4.
Pierce in his absolute prime may have been a 4.5, but it was short lived... he's been a 4 for most of his career and is inching towards 3.5.
Ray in his absolute prime was a 4.5... now he's a 2.5
Rondo is a 4.  His stats often suggest otherwise, but he's a 4.
Terry is life long 2.5
Bass is a 2 ->  2.5
Sully is a 2 right now with a potential anywhere between 2.5 and 3.
Lee is a 2.5
Barbosa is a 2 -> 2.5
Bradley is a 2.5 right now with a max potential of a 3.5.  THough some here see him as having 4 potential.  A few more see him as having 4.5 potential, but that's just homers being homers.
Fab Melo is a 0.5 right now probably with a max potential of 3 (Perkins was about the same).
Jeff Green is a 3 with 3.5 potential


...

In other words:

PG - Rondo - 4 stars
SG - Lee - 2.5 stars
SF - Pierce - 4 stars
PF - KG - 4 stars
C - Collins - 1 star
----
SF - Green - 3 stars
PF - Bass - 2.5 stars
SG - Terry - 2.5 stars
SG - Bradley - 2.5 stars
SG - Barbosa - 2.5 stars
PF - Sullinger - 2 stars

... Hence why I've been saying this roster "made no sense" since prior to the season starting and hence why our current struggles aren't surprising at all to me.

I pretty much stand by everything I said there.  So if we were to look at our current roster post-injury it looks like this:

PG - Bradley - 2.5 stars
SG - Lee - 2.5 stars
SF - Pierce - 4 stars
PF - Bass - 2.5 stars (I think he's fallen to 2)
C - KG - 4 stars
----
SF - Green - 3 stars (I think he's pushing 3.5)
SG - Terry - 2.5 stars
SG - Crawford - 2 stars


... Except now I actually kind of feel like Bass has regressed to 2 stars and Green has inched up to 3.5 ... Just kind of makes sense to me to try him out as a starting PF and bring Bass off the bench.  I also just like the idea of having another creator out there to keep things dynamic in the post-Rondo "Freedom Offense".  Bass is a very one-dimensional offensive player.

Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2013, 08:12:49 PM »

Offline OsirusCeltics

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Kind of wish we got rid of Bass now, as counter intuitive as it sounds (with our lack of bigs*). Just so Doc would stop entrusting him with so many minutes.

It's not even like there's evidence that Green will ever be any good at the PF. It's just that Bass has just been that bad.

Why why oh why didn't the Celtics move Bass?? :(

Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2013, 08:13:05 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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I like keeping Jeff Green in his current role better than starting him at the four.  Bass works fine as the starting power forward.  Yes, he's undersized, but he's got the bulk to be more effective guarding low post players. 

Jeff Green's role is perfect right now.  He plays most of his minutes as a back up small forward (his natural position), but he also seems to be getting increasingly comfortable being asked to guard multiple positions depending on match ups throughout the course of the game.  This is going to pay off for us come the playoffs. 

I think that making him the starting 4 now would be completely counterproductive.  He might end up finishing a bunch of games at that position, though.  I'm cool with that. 

Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2013, 08:14:43 PM »

Offline BballTim

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It's not even like there's evidence that Green will ever be any good at the PF. It's just that Bass has just been that bad.

What are you saying?
He played PF a lot in OKC with Durant.

He's so much better now playing the bulk of his minutes at the 3.

  Pierce is playing 35 minutes a game in February and Green's playing 30 so I don't think the bulk of his minutes are coming at the 3 lately.

Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2013, 08:15:41 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Kind of wish we got rid of Bass now, as counter intuitive as it sounds (with our lack of bigs*). Just so Doc would stop entrusting him with so many minutes.

It's not even like there's evidence that Green will ever be any good at the PF. It's just that Bass has just been that bad.

Why why oh why didn't the Celtics move Bass?? :(

Waste of money.  Nobody wanted him.  No sense in showcasing him now.  Start Green out of position and hope for the best.

In an ideal world, we would have packaged some of our expendable assets + Bass for a legit center like Gortat and brought KG back to his natural PF role.  But at this point (since that didn't work out), I think I'd like to start our 5 best players at the same time.  Not that novel of an idea, really.  Green deserves more than 30 minutes on this team.  He's clearly our 3rd best player. 

I think we stand a better chance of finding a capable backup for Pierce than we do finding a starting big man.   Start Green and find a backup SF via waiverwire/free agency.

Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2013, 08:40:21 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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It's not even like there's evidence that Green will ever be any good at the PF. It's just that Bass has just been that bad.

What are you saying?
He played PF a lot in OKC with Durant.

He's so much better now playing the bulk of his minutes at the 3.

  Pierce is playing 35 minutes a game in February and Green's playing 30 so I don't think the bulk of his minutes are coming at the 3 lately.

Does this account for the possible minutes Pierce has been getting at the 2?

Nonetheless, data from 82games actually suggest that Green's been more productive at the 4 this year:

http://www.82games.com/1213/12BOS8.HTM

I'm not sure how they classify positional minutes, but here are the Green numbers for own PER and opponents' PER:

       Own PER    Opp. PER
SF        9.9            9.2
PF      15.9          13.3

Most of the difference is coming from shooting % (54% when at PF, 44% when at SF).

In terms of +/- performance by lineup, Green is in plenty of lineups that have fared well with him at PF. The ones where he's done well at SF were generally also with Sully at PF, so I'm not sure what to take away from that - we can't play those lineups any more, that's for sure.

Also, for what it's worth 82Games has him at 16 mpg at SF and 9 mpg at PF for the year.

Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2013, 08:52:15 PM »

Offline gar

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Not sure what has been holding Wilcox back. I like Wilcox and Green in a small lineup with 3 guards. T-Will should help there since he can guard SF's.

Green will be playing 35 min a game now that we have no backup center and Wilcox will be spending his time there.

Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2013, 08:53:24 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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It's not even like there's evidence that Green will ever be any good at the PF. It's just that Bass has just been that bad.

What are you saying?
He played PF a lot in OKC with Durant.

He's so much better now playing the bulk of his minutes at the 3.

  Pierce is playing 35 minutes a game in February and Green's playing 30 so I don't think the bulk of his minutes are coming at the 3 lately.

Does this account for the possible minutes Pierce has been getting at the 2?

Nonetheless, data from 82games actually suggest that Green's been more productive at the 4 this year:

http://www.82games.com/1213/12BOS8.HTM

I'm not sure how they classify positional minutes, but here are the Green numbers for own PER and opponents' PER:

       Own PER    Opp. PER
SF        9.9            9.2
PF      15.9          13.3

Most of the difference is coming from shooting % (54% when at PF, 44% when at SF).

In terms of +/- performance by lineup, Green is in plenty of lineups that have fared well with him at PF. The ones where he's done well at SF were generally also with Sully at PF, so I'm not sure what to take away from that - we can't play those lineups any more, that's for sure.

Also, for what it's worth 82Games has him at 16 mpg at SF and 9 mpg at PF for the year.
Interesting.  In the offseason, I was pretty underwhelmed by our various shooting guards.  I was a big fan of starting Pierce at SG and Green at SF... then using some of our expendable assets (Lee, Bradley, etc) to land a proper big.

But at this point, I like what I see from the Bradley/Lee back court.  They are solid defensively... Bradley is pretty much a defensive role player point guard.  Lee's pretty effective on both ends.   WE're lacking in bigs... so I'm in favor of slotting Green at the PF.

Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2013, 08:56:45 PM »

Offline CelticConcourse

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I like the

Bradley/Lee/Pierce/Green/KG

and

Lee/Pierce/Green/Wilcox/KG
Jeff Green - Top 5 SF

[Kevin Garnett]
"I've always said J. Green is going to be one of the best players to ever play this game"

Re: Should we just start Green out of position at PF?
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2013, 09:42:55 PM »

Online BudweiserCeltic

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Now that we have someone like Terrence Williams back there, this team should strongly consider starting Jeff Green, whether it be at the 3, with Pierce at the 2, or at the 4 instead of Bass.

Not sure which is the best course of action at the moment.

 

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