Author Topic: SI Article on Rondo Coming This Week  (Read 4639 times)

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Re: SI Article on Rondo Coming This Week
« Reply #45 on: February 26, 2013, 11:19:23 AM »

Offline BballTim

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  I think that Scal's quote really cuts to the heart of the Rondo conundrum:

Brian Scalabrine: “There’s no one in the history of our game like him. He’s the the most interesting player I’ve ever known. How does someone who is 6-foot-1 get 18 rebounds? How does someone who doesn’t run fast break get 20 assists? How does someone who never shoots get everybody open? We cannot begin to understand how he does it.”

  IMO not only can people not understand how a player that defenses give so much room to can run an offense so successfully, they refuse to believe that what they're seeing is more than an aberration or a perfect storm of unique circumstances. First it was that anyone could get that many assists playing with HOFers (until they stopped playing at that level). Then it was that he could only get his assists if he was surrounded by great shooters (until Bradley replaced Ray). Now it's that he spends games hunting for assists and trying to pad his stats (because, frankly, it's the only explanation left).

  The truth of the matter is that he's just that good. Not only is he able to find people for open shots despite the way the team's guarded, he's able to find them at a terrific rate. This is the 3rd year in a row that he's averaged 11+ assists. The only other player to ever do that by the same age was Magic. The only other players who ever averaged 11 assists 3 times in their first 7 years were Stockton (4 times), Magic and Oscar. The fact that he's able to do that when he's not on a fast break team and opponents are playing him for the pass and not the shot is very impressive.


Re: SI Article on Rondo Coming This Week
« Reply #46 on: February 26, 2013, 11:26:08 AM »

Offline vinnie

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  I think that Scal's quote really cuts to the heart of the Rondo conundrum:

Brian Scalabrine: “There’s no one in the history of our game like him. He’s the the most interesting player I’ve ever known. How does someone who is 6-foot-1 get 18 rebounds? How does someone who doesn’t run fast break get 20 assists? How does someone who never shoots get everybody open? We cannot begin to understand how he does it.”

  IMO not only can people not understand how a player that defenses give so much room to can run an offense so successfully, they refuse to believe that what they're seeing is more than an aberration or a perfect storm of unique circumstances. First it was that anyone could get that many assists playing with HOFers (until they stopped playing at that level). Then it was that he could only get his assists if he was surrounded by great shooters (until Bradley replaced Ray). Now it's that he spends games hunting for assists and trying to pad his stats (because, frankly, it's the only explanation left).

  The truth of the matter is that he's just that good. Not only is he able to find people for open shots despite the way the team's guarded, he's able to find them at a terrific rate. This is the 3rd year in a row that he's averaged 11+ assists. The only other player to ever do that by the same age was Magic. The only other players who ever averaged 11 assists 3 times in their first 7 years were Stockton (4 times), Magic and Oscar. The fact that he's able to do that when he's not on a fast break team and opponents are playing him for the pass and not the shot is very impressive.

TP for you

Re: SI Article on Rondo Coming This Week
« Reply #47 on: February 26, 2013, 11:28:19 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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relevant



this pictures focal point is his fingers.
haha. i cant seem to look away.

I wonder if he is able to use his hand size as an advantage when playing ConnectFour.  Maybe those fingers distract his opponent or something. 

I'm a fairly nasty ConnectFour player, myself.  I've started playing regularly against my nine year old daughter lately.  I beat her almost every time. 

Re: SI Article on Rondo Coming This Week
« Reply #48 on: February 26, 2013, 11:49:59 AM »

Offline ssspence

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  I think that Scal's quote really cuts to the heart of the Rondo conundrum:

Brian Scalabrine: “There’s no one in the history of our game like him. He’s the the most interesting player I’ve ever known. How does someone who is 6-foot-1 get 18 rebounds? How does someone who doesn’t run fast break get 20 assists? How does someone who never shoots get everybody open? We cannot begin to understand how he does it.”

  IMO not only can people not understand how a player that defenses give so much room to can run an offense so successfully, they refuse to believe that what they're seeing is more than an aberration or a perfect storm of unique circumstances. First it was that anyone could get that many assists playing with HOFers (until they stopped playing at that level). Then it was that he could only get his assists if he was surrounded by great shooters (until Bradley replaced Ray). Now it's that he spends games hunting for assists and trying to pad his stats (because, frankly, it's the only explanation left).

  The truth of the matter is that he's just that good. Not only is he able to find people for open shots despite the way the team's guarded, he's able to find them at a terrific rate. This is the 3rd year in a row that he's averaged 11+ assists. The only other player to ever do that by the same age was Magic. The only other players who ever averaged 11 assists 3 times in their first 7 years were Stockton (4 times), Magic and Oscar. The fact that he's able to do that when he's not on a fast break team and opponents are playing him for the pass and not the shot is very impressive.

No doubt that Rondo is a uniquely talented player. So is Josh Smith. So is Al Jefferson. So is Jamal Crawford, etc. Doubts persist about what those talents do for win loss record of their respective teams. How about Rondo?

The Celtics major offensive stats since Rondo was injured, including APG, FG%, 3P FG% and PPG, are all at or above where they were when he wasn't. As is their record.

So, do Rondo's talents truly elevate the Cs play?

I enjoy watching Rondo as a fan, but have doubts (as you know) about whether his play drives Cs wins, and / or whether some of the other aspects that come with the Rondo package prevent them. 






Re: SI Article on Rondo Coming This Week
« Reply #49 on: February 26, 2013, 12:19:58 PM »

Offline BballTim

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  I think that Scal's quote really cuts to the heart of the Rondo conundrum:

Brian Scalabrine: “There’s no one in the history of our game like him. He’s the the most interesting player I’ve ever known. How does someone who is 6-foot-1 get 18 rebounds? How does someone who doesn’t run fast break get 20 assists? How does someone who never shoots get everybody open? We cannot begin to understand how he does it.”

  IMO not only can people not understand how a player that defenses give so much room to can run an offense so successfully, they refuse to believe that what they're seeing is more than an aberration or a perfect storm of unique circumstances. First it was that anyone could get that many assists playing with HOFers (until they stopped playing at that level). Then it was that he could only get his assists if he was surrounded by great shooters (until Bradley replaced Ray). Now it's that he spends games hunting for assists and trying to pad his stats (because, frankly, it's the only explanation left).

  The truth of the matter is that he's just that good. Not only is he able to find people for open shots despite the way the team's guarded, he's able to find them at a terrific rate. This is the 3rd year in a row that he's averaged 11+ assists. The only other player to ever do that by the same age was Magic. The only other players who ever averaged 11 assists 3 times in their first 7 years were Stockton (4 times), Magic and Oscar. The fact that he's able to do that when he's not on a fast break team and opponents are playing him for the pass and not the shot is very impressive.

No doubt that Rondo is a uniquely talented player. So is Josh Smith. So is Al Jefferson. So is Jamal Crawford, etc. Doubts persist about what those talents do for win loss record of their respective teams. How about Rondo?

The Celtics major offensive stats since Rondo was injured, including APG, FG%, 3P FG% and PPG, are all at or above where they were when he wasn't. As is their record.

So, do Rondo's talents truly elevate the Cs play?

  Yes, and it's obvious if you've seen enough of the Celts that you don't ignore years of play and base your entire analysis of Rondo on a 5-6 week stretch when Rondo and PP and Terry were playing through injuries. You'd also have to ignore the fact that our offense earlier this season was better than it's been since Rondo's been out to claim Rondo doesn't help the offense, and have seen very few of the Celts playoff games over the last few years.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 01:41:21 PM by BballTim »

Re: SI Article on Rondo Coming This Week
« Reply #50 on: February 26, 2013, 12:29:13 PM »

Offline kgainez

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can't see the article put up by truthtrey any more :(

Re: SI Article on Rondo Coming This Week
« Reply #51 on: February 26, 2013, 12:32:55 PM »

Offline Snakehead

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  I think that Scal's quote really cuts to the heart of the Rondo conundrum:

Brian Scalabrine: “There’s no one in the history of our game like him. He’s the the most interesting player I’ve ever known. How does someone who is 6-foot-1 get 18 rebounds? How does someone who doesn’t run fast break get 20 assists? How does someone who never shoots get everybody open? We cannot begin to understand how he does it.”

  IMO not only can people not understand how a player that defenses give so much room to can run an offense so successfully, they refuse to believe that what they're seeing is more than an aberration or a perfect storm of unique circumstances. First it was that anyone could get that many assists playing with HOFers (until they stopped playing at that level). Then it was that he could only get his assists if he was surrounded by great shooters (until Bradley replaced Ray). Now it's that he spends games hunting for assists and trying to pad his stats (because, frankly, it's the only explanation left).

  The truth of the matter is that he's just that good. Not only is he able to find people for open shots despite the way the team's guarded, he's able to find them at a terrific rate. This is the 3rd year in a row that he's averaged 11+ assists. The only other player to ever do that by the same age was Magic. The only other players who ever averaged 11 assists 3 times in their first 7 years were Stockton (4 times), Magic and Oscar. The fact that he's able to do that when he's not on a fast break team and opponents are playing him for the pass and not the shot is very impressive.

Well put Tim.  TP.

I found Scal's quote to be one of the better parts of the article as well.  I'm surprised how much I'm enjoying Scal as a color man and analyst.


"I really don't want people to understand me." - Jordan Crawford

Re: SI Article on Rondo Coming This Week
« Reply #52 on: February 26, 2013, 01:30:43 PM »

Offline BballTim

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  I think that Scal's quote really cuts to the heart of the Rondo conundrum:

Brian Scalabrine: “There’s no one in the history of our game like him. He’s the the most interesting player I’ve ever known. How does someone who is 6-foot-1 get 18 rebounds? How does someone who doesn’t run fast break get 20 assists? How does someone who never shoots get everybody open? We cannot begin to understand how he does it.”

  IMO not only can people not understand how a player that defenses give so much room to can run an offense so successfully, they refuse to believe that what they're seeing is more than an aberration or a perfect storm of unique circumstances. First it was that anyone could get that many assists playing with HOFers (until they stopped playing at that level). Then it was that he could only get his assists if he was surrounded by great shooters (until Bradley replaced Ray). Now it's that he spends games hunting for assists and trying to pad his stats (because, frankly, it's the only explanation left).

  The truth of the matter is that he's just that good. Not only is he able to find people for open shots despite the way the team's guarded, he's able to find them at a terrific rate. This is the 3rd year in a row that he's averaged 11+ assists. The only other player to ever do that by the same age was Magic. The only other players who ever averaged 11 assists 3 times in their first 7 years were Stockton (4 times), Magic and Oscar. The fact that he's able to do that when he's not on a fast break team and opponents are playing him for the pass and not the shot is very impressive.

No doubt that Rondo is a uniquely talented player. So is Josh Smith. So is Al Jefferson. So is Jamal Crawford, etc. Doubts persist about what those talents do for win loss record of their respective teams. How about Rondo?

  By the way, there are a number of areas (assists, triple doubles and rebounds for a pg in the playoffs, individual games, defense) where there Rondo's done things or put up stats that few in the game have. Are you saying that players like Jamal Crawford regularly do things that very few players in league history have done? What talents do they possess that are historically unique?

Re: SI Article on Rondo Coming This Week
« Reply #53 on: February 26, 2013, 01:31:30 PM »

Offline BballTim

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can't see the article put up by truthtrey any more :(

  I noticed that as well. Bummer.

Re: SI Article on Rondo Coming This Week
« Reply #54 on: February 26, 2013, 02:11:20 PM »

Offline ssspence

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  I think that Scal's quote really cuts to the heart of the Rondo conundrum:

Brian Scalabrine: “There’s no one in the history of our game like him. He’s the the most interesting player I’ve ever known. How does someone who is 6-foot-1 get 18 rebounds? How does someone who doesn’t run fast break get 20 assists? How does someone who never shoots get everybody open? We cannot begin to understand how he does it.”

  IMO not only can people not understand how a player that defenses give so much room to can run an offense so successfully, they refuse to believe that what they're seeing is more than an aberration or a perfect storm of unique circumstances. First it was that anyone could get that many assists playing with HOFers (until they stopped playing at that level). Then it was that he could only get his assists if he was surrounded by great shooters (until Bradley replaced Ray). Now it's that he spends games hunting for assists and trying to pad his stats (because, frankly, it's the only explanation left).

  The truth of the matter is that he's just that good. Not only is he able to find people for open shots despite the way the team's guarded, he's able to find them at a terrific rate. This is the 3rd year in a row that he's averaged 11+ assists. The only other player to ever do that by the same age was Magic. The only other players who ever averaged 11 assists 3 times in their first 7 years were Stockton (4 times), Magic and Oscar. The fact that he's able to do that when he's not on a fast break team and opponents are playing him for the pass and not the shot is very impressive.

No doubt that Rondo is a uniquely talented player. So is Josh Smith. So is Al Jefferson. So is Jamal Crawford, etc. Doubts persist about what those talents do for win loss record of their respective teams. How about Rondo?

  By the way, there are a number of areas (assists, triple doubles and rebounds for a pg in the playoffs, individual games, defense) where there Rondo's done things or put up stats that few in the game have. Are you saying that players like Jamal Crawford regularly do things that very few players in league history have done? What talents do they possess that are historically unique?

You're marveling at Rondo's individual statistics. I don't care about them. I'm interested in the performance of the team, and whether Rondo's participation positively effects the outcome of games. 

The Celtics offensive rank has gone down every year since 2008. I won't blame this exclusively on Rondo, but I also won't stick my head in the sand and pretend it has nothing to do with him.

Meanwhile, I believe there's enough statistical and visual evidence regarding the effect of him not being on the floor to wonder what the player could do to improve his effect on his team.


 




Re: SI Article on Rondo Coming This Week
« Reply #55 on: February 26, 2013, 03:03:17 PM »

Offline BballTim

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  I think that Scal's quote really cuts to the heart of the Rondo conundrum:

Brian Scalabrine: “There’s no one in the history of our game like him. He’s the the most interesting player I’ve ever known. How does someone who is 6-foot-1 get 18 rebounds? How does someone who doesn’t run fast break get 20 assists? How does someone who never shoots get everybody open? We cannot begin to understand how he does it.”

  IMO not only can people not understand how a player that defenses give so much room to can run an offense so successfully, they refuse to believe that what they're seeing is more than an aberration or a perfect storm of unique circumstances. First it was that anyone could get that many assists playing with HOFers (until they stopped playing at that level). Then it was that he could only get his assists if he was surrounded by great shooters (until Bradley replaced Ray). Now it's that he spends games hunting for assists and trying to pad his stats (because, frankly, it's the only explanation left).

  The truth of the matter is that he's just that good. Not only is he able to find people for open shots despite the way the team's guarded, he's able to find them at a terrific rate. This is the 3rd year in a row that he's averaged 11+ assists. The only other player to ever do that by the same age was Magic. The only other players who ever averaged 11 assists 3 times in their first 7 years were Stockton (4 times), Magic and Oscar. The fact that he's able to do that when he's not on a fast break team and opponents are playing him for the pass and not the shot is very impressive.

No doubt that Rondo is a uniquely talented player. So is Josh Smith. So is Al Jefferson. So is Jamal Crawford, etc. Doubts persist about what those talents do for win loss record of their respective teams. How about Rondo?

  By the way, there are a number of areas (assists, triple doubles and rebounds for a pg in the playoffs, individual games, defense) where there Rondo's done things or put up stats that few in the game have. Are you saying that players like Jamal Crawford regularly do things that very few players in league history have done? What talents do they possess that are historically unique?

You're marveling at Rondo's individual statistics. I don't care about them. I'm interested in the performance of the team, and whether Rondo's participation positively effects the outcome of games. 

  I'm not marveling at Rondo's individual stats, just claiming that they're significant enough that they can't just be dismissed out of hand.

The Celtics offensive rank has gone down every year since 2008. I won't blame this exclusively on Rondo, but I also won't stick my head in the sand and pretend it has nothing to do with him.

  I don't stick my head in the sand and pretend our offense has nothing to do with Rondo either. But I don't ignore obvious things about the rest of the roster. Obvious differences are that we don't have the three point shooters that we did, we don't have players that take the ball to the hoop like we used to, and we don't go after offensive rebounds like we used to. I don't see how you'd blame Rondo for any of these but it's still possible that you do.

  Even more glaring is the change in our scoring leaders. Paul Pierce is nowhere near the offensive player he was in 2008. Kevin Garnett is nowhere near the offensive player he was in 2008. Bradley and Lee aren't any closer to 2008 Ray as scorers than Rondo is to Irving. Again, the drop in scoring ability among our leading scorers would have a dramatic effect on our offense. Again, I wouldn't blame this on Rondo although you might.

  When you consider all of the reasons our offense should be worse than in 2008 I'd say that Rondo's role, especially before mid-December or so, was to keep our offense good enough that we could still compete with other top teams.

Meanwhile, I believe there's enough statistical and visual evidence regarding the effect of him not being on the floor to wonder what the player could do to improve his effect on his team.

  On this we completely agree. You're claiming Rondo doesn't contribute to the offense because we're as good without him as we are with him. Fine. In the 10-11 season our offense was 10 ppp better when he played, in the 2011 playoffs it was 17 ppp better, In the 11-12 season we were 7 points better, in the 2012 playoffs we were 11 points better. The visual evidence obviously confirmed this. Again, I'd claim that 2 full seasons and 2 full playoffs are more meaningful than a stretch of bad play in the middle of a season when 3 of our top offensive players were struggling with injuries.

Re: SI Article on Rondo Coming This Week
« Reply #56 on: February 26, 2013, 03:25:35 PM »

Offline ssspence

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Despite your insistance to the contrary, Pierce and Garnett haven't changed as dramatically year-to-year as you describe, or really that much at all.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/662/paul-pierce

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/261/kevin-garnett

And Allen left because he hated playing with Rondo, despite the fact than on paper a guy who leads the league in assists should be the perfect fit for the league's greatest catch-and-shot player ever. 

Meanwhile, there's plenty of evidence around Rondo's ball domination (and the stagnation it creates) beyond just looking at the Cs offensive efficiency. Here's an excerpt from Zach Lowe:

It’s no secret Boston’s offense had grown very Rondo-dominant, especially this season. The Celtics are one of 15 teams that have invested in fancy data-tracking cameras from STATS LLC, and the information from those cameras backs up that notion. Rondo has dribbled the ball about 486 times per tracked game this season, the fourth-highest figure in the league for players on those 15 camera teams, and about 90 more dribbles per game than he averaged last season, according to the data. A larger percentage of his touches — 41 percent this season, 35.5 percent last season — have involved at least six dribbles.

This has naturally resulted in fewer touches, and shorter touches, for some of Boston’s secondary ball-handlers. Terry dribbles the ball twice on average every time he gets it, down from a three-dribble average last season, and a much higher percentage of his touches have lasted between zero and two seconds in Boston, the data show. Pierce’s stats have shifted in a similar way, and Terry is still on pace for a career-low usage rate — a measure of the percentage of Boston possessions that end with a Terry shot, drawn foul or turnover.


Sorry, this is getting boring. I'm moving on to something else. TP for the effort, and I'll leave you with the below -- here's to hoping somewhere Rondo has read this article in between games of Connect 4.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323384604578326451812887938.html?KEYWORDS=rondo

Re: SI Article on Rondo Coming This Week
« Reply #57 on: February 26, 2013, 04:13:39 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Despite your insistance to the contrary, Pierce and Garnett haven't changed as dramatically year-to-year as you describe, or really that much at all.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/662/paul-pierce

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/261/kevin-garnett

  I don't have to look at stats to see the difference in PP's game from 07-08 to now, although I'd wonder if you noticed that his fg%, 3fg% and ft% were all well down and that he has his lowest ts% in almost 10 years. In the 2 years before 07-08 PP (who was only 30 at the time) averaged 27 and 25 ppg. He was still clearly capable of carrying that kind of load on offense in 08, he's clearly far from that level now. Same goes for KG and Ray, who averaged 27 or so the year before he came here. An aside, but in 2008 I felt that the window was clearly longer than the 2-3 years people were claiming because the big three were carrying such a reduced load that they'd be able to maintain that lower level of productivity for q while. They're getting to the point where they have trouble carrying that lower level of productivity now.

And Allen left because he hated playing with Rondo, despite the fact than on paper a guy who leads the league in assists should be the perfect fit for the league's greatest catch-and-shot player ever.
 

  Ray left for a number of reasons. But the "on paper" analysis clearly matched the results, in the last 4 years Ray played with Rondo he had 4 of the 5 most efficient scoring years of his career.

Meanwhile, there's plenty of evidence around Rondo's ball domination (and the stagnation it creates) beyond just looking at the Cs offensive efficiency. Here's an excerpt from Zach Lowe:

It’s no secret Boston’s offense had grown very Rondo-dominant, especially this season. The Celtics are one of 15 teams that have invested in fancy data-tracking cameras from STATS LLC, and the information from those cameras backs up that notion. Rondo has dribbled the ball about 486 times per tracked game this season, the fourth-highest figure in the league for players on those 15 camera teams, and about 90 more dribbles per game than he averaged last season, according to the data. A larger percentage of his touches — 41 percent this season, 35.5 percent last season — have involved at least six dribbles.

This has naturally resulted in fewer touches, and shorter touches, for some of Boston’s secondary ball-handlers. Terry dribbles the ball twice on average every time he gets it, down from a three-dribble average last season, and a much higher percentage of his touches have lasted between zero and two seconds in Boston, the data show. Pierce’s stats have shifted in a similar way, and Terry is still on pace for a career-low usage rate — a measure of the percentage of Boston possessions that end with a Terry shot, drawn foul or turnover.


  Sounds pretty [dang]ing in a vacuum. When you consider that a) Terry's  best offensive month with the Celts isn't February, it was November when he was starting alongside Rondo, b) Danny mentioned that Terry (and PP btw) was playing poorly in Dec/Jan because of an injury and c) that Terry's usage hasn't changed dramatically since Rondo left you'd probably realize that everything the guy was saying about Terry and PP was probably unrelated to Rondo's play.

Re: SI Article on Rondo Coming This Week
« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2013, 06:18:51 PM »

Offline ejk3489

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The full article came out today, for those who were interested in reading it:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1207014/index.htm

 

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