Author Topic: Is it time to admit Rondo meant so much to this team?  (Read 3227 times)

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Re: Is it time to admit Rondo meant so much to this team?
« Reply #60 on: February 21, 2013, 01:05:11 PM »

Offline Greenback

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Rondo has been one of the most frustrating Celtics PGs to watch -ever.  And right now, I would rather have Ray Allen on the roster than Rondo.

The Celtics miss Sullinger and Barbosa as much.  As far as the Lakers game, who knows if Rondo would be suspended or started a fight with Dwight Howard or something similiar.

As far as where he ranks on the Celtcs all time PG list he is somewhere here:

Cousy
KC Jones
Archibald
Jo Jo White
DJ
Mr. Big Shot Billups
Kenny Anderson
Sherman Douglas
David Wesley
Dana Barros
Rondo

I have not heard any rumors where GMs are trying to trade for Rondo.   Hmmmmmmmmm




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Re: Is it time to admit Rondo meant so much to this team?
« Reply #61 on: February 21, 2013, 01:08:17 PM »

Online BballTim

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But guys...were we winning with Rondo? lol

Yall make it seem like we didn't go on our 6 game win streak with Rondo right at home.
Yall make it seem like we were 30-10 before Rondo went down.

I like the guy but I think as he's gone, we seem to make his skill set fantastical.

Let me put it like that. Sometimes when I get to missing someone, I remember all our fun and good times. Then I hang out with them and I remember how annoying and worrisome they are. Same difference. Things we do as humans.

How would Rondo have helped against Lakers?
Maybe against the Nuggets. I think we were in close enough striking distance for that.

But last night? Against the Lakers? who we couldn't defend and get a rebound against? how does he help?

How does losing an All Star level talent not hurt your team?  There is nothing "fantastical" about it, it's plain to see what he can do and what we are missing.

How does having more talent not help against any team?

I swear, some people just have the shortest memories.  If we can't get that less talent makes your team worse I just don't know what we are talking about anymore.

You can't take a long view in your talk about our record and then say we are better after a 6 game winning streak.  The two statements don't jive. Remember when we went on a 6 game winning streak and then a 6 game losing streak?

time out.
my point, as I continue to say, is I don't think Rondo would've made a difference last night...in other games, sure? I think even against Denver, he would've helped.
The way in which we lost last night had 0 to do with having Rondo in my opinion.

also, don't sign me up on that 'plain' to see thing. best difference I've seen so far minus Rondo is the fun passes. oh the ball handling, but Rondo makes idiotic turnovers, too. and I think Jet and Jeff are kind of better handlers than we give them credit for. But at the same time, we don't have a back up PG.

Rondo is great. Record breaking. Cute passes. But his whole 'turn it on or turn it off' game is not cool with me. What I do like about this group is they (seem) to be on every night. I think we still had some fight last night. but something was off.

that's not to say the lakers couldn't have been playing extremely hard for dr. buss and we just happened to be on the other end of that...so there's that as well.

Rondo is a great PG. I like the way we've played minus him (up to this point -- it seems like Doc is trying to hard to reincarnate him, which I was scared of). I'm hoping when he returns, we can continue to do the ball movement thing.

but...we need some rebounding BIGS. THAT would'ved help against Lakers AND Denver.

I don't get some of your Rondo criticisms.  But anyways, with more talent you can win any game.  Notice the Celtics have been getting outrebounded for the last few seasons very consistently yet have had plenty of success.

Anyways, sure, I wish we had Sullinger and better rebounding bigs.  I would love that.  But basically blaming Rondo for that doesn't make sense.

I'm not blaming Rondo for that lol
I do blame Rondo for not pushing the ball up, typically looking of Jeff and Jet, passing lots to KG and PP, and passing up layups.
So that...

  This is more stuff you read about on the blog than see in the games. People are talking about how great Terry is without Rondo, he was putting up the same or better numbers in November starting alongside Rondo.

Re: Is it time to admit Rondo meant so much to this team?
« Reply #62 on: February 21, 2013, 01:09:40 PM »

Online Celtics18

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Wow!  There's a lot of downright venomous animosity around here towards our injured point guard.

All I can say is that folks have some really short memories. 
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Re: Is it time to admit Rondo meant so much to this team?
« Reply #63 on: February 21, 2013, 01:11:53 PM »

Online BballTim

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Rondo can't play center and guard Howard as effectively as Bass can.
Exactly.  When Dwight gets 7 offensive rebounds that lead to baskets, oh, there's the 14 points that we lost by.  I was really disappointed that Doc didn't play Jason Collins more last night.  More confused than disappointed actually.  I felt that was a no brainer.


Rondo is also a very good rebounder so that would've helped a lot but we've needed help in that department for a while
Rondo isn't going to keep Dwight from getting rebounds.


  While these may be true, we've won games before when Howard (or someone else) got a ton of rebounds. Sometimes you stop them from doing what they want, sometimes you do other things well to offset what they're doing well.

Re: Is it time to admit Rondo meant so much to this team?
« Reply #64 on: February 21, 2013, 01:15:07 PM »

Offline kgainez

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But guys...were we winning with Rondo? lol

Yall make it seem like we didn't go on our 6 game win streak with Rondo right at home.
Yall make it seem like we were 30-10 before Rondo went down.

I like the guy but I think as he's gone, we seem to make his skill set fantastical.

Let me put it like that. Sometimes when I get to missing someone, I remember all our fun and good times. Then I hang out with them and I remember how annoying and worrisome they are. Same difference. Things we do as humans.

How would Rondo have helped against Lakers?
Maybe against the Nuggets. I think we were in close enough striking distance for that.

But last night? Against the Lakers? who we couldn't defend and get a rebound against? how does he help?

How does losing an All Star level talent not hurt your team?  There is nothing "fantastical" about it, it's plain to see what he can do and what we are missing.

How does having more talent not help against any team?

I swear, some people just have the shortest memories.  If we can't get that less talent makes your team worse I just don't know what we are talking about anymore.

You can't take a long view in your talk about our record and then say we are better after a 6 game winning streak.  The two statements don't jive. Remember when we went on a 6 game winning streak and then a 6 game losing streak?

time out.
my point, as I continue to say, is I don't think Rondo would've made a difference last night...in other games, sure? I think even against Denver, he would've helped.
The way in which we lost last night had 0 to do with having Rondo in my opinion.

also, don't sign me up on that 'plain' to see thing. best difference I've seen so far minus Rondo is the fun passes. oh the ball handling, but Rondo makes idiotic turnovers, too. and I think Jet and Jeff are kind of better handlers than we give them credit for. But at the same time, we don't have a back up PG.

Rondo is great. Record breaking. Cute passes. But his whole 'turn it on or turn it off' game is not cool with me. What I do like about this group is they (seem) to be on every night. I think we still had some fight last night. but something was off.

that's not to say the lakers couldn't have been playing extremely hard for dr. buss and we just happened to be on the other end of that...so there's that as well.

Rondo is a great PG. I like the way we've played minus him (up to this point -- it seems like Doc is trying to hard to reincarnate him, which I was scared of). I'm hoping when he returns, we can continue to do the ball movement thing.

but...we need some rebounding BIGS. THAT would'ved help against Lakers AND Denver.

I don't get some of your Rondo criticisms.  But anyways, with more talent you can win any game.  Notice the Celtics have been getting outrebounded for the last few seasons very consistently yet have had plenty of success.

Anyways, sure, I wish we had Sullinger and better rebounding bigs.  I would love that.  But basically blaming Rondo for that doesn't make sense.

I'm not blaming Rondo for that lol
I do blame Rondo for not pushing the ball up, typically looking of Jeff and Jet, passing lots to KG and PP, and passing up layups.
So that...

  This is more stuff you read about on the blog than see in the games. People are talking about how great Terry is without Rondo, he was putting up the same or better numbers in November starting alongside Rondo.

i said nothing of that sort
i am saying that I like Jason getting more involved rather than just being a spot up/ray allen-esque player
if oyu check terry's stats he never flourishes in a new system until his 2nd year. no clue what you call that, but that's how i feel. he's been just as inconsistent as anyone else on the team. i'm not about to single Jason out lol

Bass on the other hand...

Re: Is it time to admit Rondo meant so much to this team?
« Reply #65 on: February 21, 2013, 01:20:59 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I've already mentioned Barbosa, but not enough is being made of losing Barbosa... so I'm mentioning Barbosa again.

Our guard rotation was so cluttered that a talented guy like Barbosa was getting frequent DNP's for no reason.  The Rondo injury hurt, but the side effect was freeing up additional minutes for Lee and Bradley... and more importantly Barbosa.  Barbosa went from getting 0 to 20+ minutes.  And he proved to be a double digit scorer off the bench.  It allowed us to have a constant offensive attack... something that we were lacking with Rondo on the floor since Rondo isn't a great offensive player. 

Losing Barbosa after losing Rondo definitely hurts more than most people want to admit.  I mean it's "just Barbosa".. but during our win streak he was a key player to  what was working in the wake of losing Rondo. 

That and we have just lost to two quality teams.  Denver is solid and the Lakers could still win a title as far as I'm concerned.

Re: Is it time to admit Rondo meant so much to this team?
« Reply #66 on: February 21, 2013, 01:33:30 PM »

Online BballTim

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But guys...were we winning with Rondo? lol

Yall make it seem like we didn't go on our 6 game win streak with Rondo right at home.
Yall make it seem like we were 30-10 before Rondo went down.

I like the guy but I think as he's gone, we seem to make his skill set fantastical.

Let me put it like that. Sometimes when I get to missing someone, I remember all our fun and good times. Then I hang out with them and I remember how annoying and worrisome they are. Same difference. Things we do as humans.

How would Rondo have helped against Lakers?
Maybe against the Nuggets. I think we were in close enough striking distance for that.

But last night? Against the Lakers? who we couldn't defend and get a rebound against? how does he help?

How does losing an All Star level talent not hurt your team?  There is nothing "fantastical" about it, it's plain to see what he can do and what we are missing.

How does having more talent not help against any team?

I swear, some people just have the shortest memories.  If we can't get that less talent makes your team worse I just don't know what we are talking about anymore.

You can't take a long view in your talk about our record and then say we are better after a 6 game winning streak.  The two statements don't jive. Remember when we went on a 6 game winning streak and then a 6 game losing streak?

time out.
my point, as I continue to say, is I don't think Rondo would've made a difference last night...in other games, sure? I think even against Denver, he would've helped.
The way in which we lost last night had 0 to do with having Rondo in my opinion.

also, don't sign me up on that 'plain' to see thing. best difference I've seen so far minus Rondo is the fun passes. oh the ball handling, but Rondo makes idiotic turnovers, too. and I think Jet and Jeff are kind of better handlers than we give them credit for. But at the same time, we don't have a back up PG.

Rondo is great. Record breaking. Cute passes. But his whole 'turn it on or turn it off' game is not cool with me. What I do like about this group is they (seem) to be on every night. I think we still had some fight last night. but something was off.

that's not to say the lakers couldn't have been playing extremely hard for dr. buss and we just happened to be on the other end of that...so there's that as well.

Rondo is a great PG. I like the way we've played minus him (up to this point -- it seems like Doc is trying to hard to reincarnate him, which I was scared of). I'm hoping when he returns, we can continue to do the ball movement thing.

but...we need some rebounding BIGS. THAT would'ved help against Lakers AND Denver.

I don't get some of your Rondo criticisms.  But anyways, with more talent you can win any game.  Notice the Celtics have been getting outrebounded for the last few seasons very consistently yet have had plenty of success.

Anyways, sure, I wish we had Sullinger and better rebounding bigs.  I would love that.  But basically blaming Rondo for that doesn't make sense.

I'm not blaming Rondo for that lol
I do blame Rondo for not pushing the ball up, typically looking of Jeff and Jet, passing lots to KG and PP, and passing up layups.
So that...

  This is more stuff you read about on the blog than see in the games. People are talking about how great Terry is without Rondo, he was putting up the same or better numbers in November starting alongside Rondo.

i said nothing of that sort
i am saying that I like Jason getting more involved rather than just being a spot up/ray allen-esque player
if oyu check terry's stats he never flourishes in a new system until his 2nd year. no clue what you call that, but that's how i feel. he's been just as inconsistent as anyone else on the team. i'm not about to single Jason out lol

Bass on the other hand...

  When's the last time Terry switched teams, and how often has he done it? I don't think you can draw a ton of conclusions from that. I think that you'd have to blame Doc for Terry's role in the offense, and I think that he's taking as many spot up shots now as he did playing with Rondo.

Re: Is it time to admit Rondo meant so much to this team?
« Reply #67 on: February 21, 2013, 01:37:26 PM »

Offline Snakehead

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But guys...were we winning with Rondo? lol

Yall make it seem like we didn't go on our 6 game win streak with Rondo right at home.
Yall make it seem like we were 30-10 before Rondo went down.

I like the guy but I think as he's gone, we seem to make his skill set fantastical.

Let me put it like that. Sometimes when I get to missing someone, I remember all our fun and good times. Then I hang out with them and I remember how annoying and worrisome they are. Same difference. Things we do as humans.

How would Rondo have helped against Lakers?
Maybe against the Nuggets. I think we were in close enough striking distance for that.

But last night? Against the Lakers? who we couldn't defend and get a rebound against? how does he help?

How does losing an All Star level talent not hurt your team?  There is nothing "fantastical" about it, it's plain to see what he can do and what we are missing.

How does having more talent not help against any team?

I swear, some people just have the shortest memories.  If we can't get that less talent makes your team worse I just don't know what we are talking about anymore.

You can't take a long view in your talk about our record and then say we are better after a 6 game winning streak.  The two statements don't jive. Remember when we went on a 6 game winning streak and then a 6 game losing streak?

time out.
my point, as I continue to say, is I don't think Rondo would've made a difference last night...in other games, sure? I think even against Denver, he would've helped.
The way in which we lost last night had 0 to do with having Rondo in my opinion.

also, don't sign me up on that 'plain' to see thing. best difference I've seen so far minus Rondo is the fun passes. oh the ball handling, but Rondo makes idiotic turnovers, too. and I think Jet and Jeff are kind of better handlers than we give them credit for. But at the same time, we don't have a back up PG.

Rondo is great. Record breaking. Cute passes. But his whole 'turn it on or turn it off' game is not cool with me. What I do like about this group is they (seem) to be on every night. I think we still had some fight last night. but something was off.

that's not to say the lakers couldn't have been playing extremely hard for dr. buss and we just happened to be on the other end of that...so there's that as well.

Rondo is a great PG. I like the way we've played minus him (up to this point -- it seems like Doc is trying to hard to reincarnate him, which I was scared of). I'm hoping when he returns, we can continue to do the ball movement thing.

but...we need some rebounding BIGS. THAT would'ved help against Lakers AND Denver.

I don't get some of your Rondo criticisms.  But anyways, with more talent you can win any game.  Notice the Celtics have been getting outrebounded for the last few seasons very consistently yet have had plenty of success.

Anyways, sure, I wish we had Sullinger and better rebounding bigs.  I would love that.  But basically blaming Rondo for that doesn't make sense.

I'm not blaming Rondo for that lol
I do blame Rondo for not pushing the ball up, typically looking of Jeff and Jet, passing lots to KG and PP, and passing up layups.
So that...

So you're saying these issues outweigh the positive contributions he brings to the team?

clarify what you mean when you say positive contributions. like what?

Being one of the best PGs in the league?  Playing at an All Star level?  Being the only player on our team that consistently has attacked the basket all season?

Is this a serious question?

I feel like the first 2 are intangible that do nothing during a game. he's slacked this entire season imo. what good is having an allstar or best pg if our record is still 20-23.

when chris paul goes out, yes the clippers absolutely suck. that's easy. when felton and kidd go out, the knicks struggle.

why does our team play just as well (and to some, better?). we are 8-3 after the injury, i don't care where we won, because the truth is, our 6 game winning streak should have at least been a 10 game one.

why is it that majority of the times Rondo gets a trip dub, we lose the game?
why do we have SUCH a great player on our team, who is the leader and we HAD a losing record? and then, why do we let him take off days and by saying playoff rondo is the best rondo. i don't like that.

I don't get it.

consistently attacking the basket? no. i disagree with that.
---
the dominate Rondo for past teams has been great because our talent level had been minimal. We NEEDED alot from him.

This year, not as much. this team is TALENTED. We don't need a dominate PG (or any position really) and we don't need the complicated offensive system that Doc did run. We have athleticism, creators, guys with multiple talents now that need to be given free reign. This is part of the reason I'm not mad at JET for chucking up shots...isn't that what we called him in for? He's a shooter. he's a creator. he can handle the ball. he's not a spot up shooter a la ray allen. he can play. he can run.

I would loovvveee Rondo to come back and adjust. I think it's a good thing he's out so now he can see the other teammates and come back and trust them, understand their strengths (because Rondo IS a genius and that's one thing I can give to you).

all im saying.

I don't know man, I don't understand.

And I can prove Rondo attacks the rim with stats, but you just say "no he doesn't".  Check the stats:

http://www.82games.com/1213/1213BOS.HTM

Rondo

37 percent of his shots at the rim
.613 eFG percentage
5.6 Points
and only 18 percent of those attempts are assisted (meaning he is driving)



The only players who compare are Jeff Green, Pierce, and Sullinger.

Pierce doesn't shoot as high of a percentage  and shoots 10 percent less of his shots there (still less points at 4.1). 

Both Jeff, Pierce, and Sully are about 50 percent assisted (meaning they were set up).  And of course Sully's includes scores off offensive rebounds.


"I really don't want people to understand me." - Jordan Crawford

Re: Is it time to admit Rondo meant so much to this team?
« Reply #68 on: February 21, 2013, 01:40:17 PM »

Online BballTim

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I've already mentioned Barbosa, but not enough is being made of losing Barbosa... so I'm mentioning Barbosa again.

Our guard rotation was so cluttered that a talented guy like Barbosa was getting frequent DNP's for no reason.  The Rondo injury hurt, but the side effect was freeing up additional minutes for Lee and Bradley... and more importantly Barbosa.  Barbosa went from getting 0 to 20+ minutes.  And he proved to be a double digit scorer off the bench.  It allowed us to have a constant offensive attack... something that we were lacking with Rondo on the floor since Rondo isn't a great offensive player. 

Losing Barbosa after losing Rondo definitely hurts more than most people want to admit.  I mean it's "just Barbosa".. but during our win streak he was a key player to  what was working in the wake of losing Rondo. 

That and we have just lost to two quality teams.  Denver is solid and the Lakers could still win a title as far as I'm concerned.

  It's true that one of the reasons the guards started playing better was more consistent minutes. We'd have seen that eventually because Doc would have sat one of Terry/Lee/Bradley and told them they wouldn't be regulars in the playoffs. Barbosa's IMO a fairly streaky scorer and was just a band-aid while Rondo was out. As for his offense compared to Rondo's, he gave us about 2 more points per 36 minutes, hardly the difference that you're claiming.

Re: Is it time to admit Rondo meant so much to this team?
« Reply #69 on: February 21, 2013, 01:41:00 PM »

Offline kg is king

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Yes, after losing a couple of games, I admit it. Rondo means a lot to this team. But when they were winning without him, I don't admit it.

Or

I can stay away from being such a volatile fan and come to this basic conclusion. Rondo is an all-star as well as a top 5 PG. His talent is surely missed, but his style of play is not. We're moving the ball better after his injury and as a result more role players are getting touches, which creates rhythm and consistency.
"I'm from the bottom, I understand what it's like to have and to not have. My perception on giving is to put yourself in those people's shoes and go from there. So that's what I did. " - The One and Only KG

Re: Is it time to admit Rondo meant so much to this team?
« Reply #70 on: February 21, 2013, 01:43:24 PM »

Offline action781

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  This is more stuff you read about on the blog than see in the games. People are talking about how great Terry is without Rondo, he was putting up the same or better numbers in November starting alongside Rondo.

The stuff you read on the blog actually comes from what the bloggers see in the games though.  Numbers don't tell the whole story.  You want to talk about Terry's numbers starting alongside Rondo in November... but you don't want to talk about Terry's numbers starting alongside Rondo in December when his efficiency was considerably lower.  And Terry's second best performance in that month of November was in the Portland game that Rondo was suspended for.

Instead of talking about months, it would be more accurate to look at the actual statistics when Terry is or is not playing alongside Rondo.  Over the course of November through December, when Terry averaged 11.5ppg and 2.2 apg, there were 4 games that Rondo did not play in.  In those games:
11/15 - 10 pts, 6 ast
11/30 - 17 pts, 1 ast
12/1  - 15 pts, 11 ast
12/29 - 13 pts, 3 ast

Are those numbers the same as worse to the 11.5 and 2.2 with Rondo?  And since Rondo's injury, he's averaged 12.2ppg and 3.2 apg while playing fewer minutes (surprisingly) than he did when starting alongside Rondo in Nov-Dec.

As for what this poster was reading from other bloggers... well bloggers get and form these opinions from watching the games.  Jason Terry does look better without Rondo than he did with Rondo.  It surely is a matter of opinion, but 99% of knowledgeable basketball fans will agree with that statement.  Although if you really wanted to dig deep enough for the statistics (not monthly, but rather w/ vs. w/o Rondo), you would find that Terry is still, in fact, not better with Rondo.
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Re: Is it time to admit Rondo meant so much to this team?
« Reply #71 on: February 21, 2013, 01:45:49 PM »

Offline action781

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Rondo can't play center and guard Howard as effectively as Bass can.
Exactly.  When Dwight gets 7 offensive rebounds that lead to baskets, oh, there's the 14 points that we lost by.  I was really disappointed that Doc didn't play Jason Collins more last night.  More confused than disappointed actually.  I felt that was a no brainer.


Rondo is also a very good rebounder so that would've helped a lot but we've needed help in that department for a while
Rondo isn't going to keep Dwight from getting rebounds.


  While these may be true, we've won games before when Howard (or someone else) got a ton of rebounds. Sometimes you stop them from doing what they want, sometimes you do other things well to offset what they're doing well.
Very true.  Given that this was a nationally televised game last night, there is a good likelihood that Rondo could have given us that last night too.
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Re: Is it time to admit Rondo meant so much to this team?
« Reply #72 on: February 21, 2013, 02:02:03 PM »

Online BballTim

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Rondo can't play center and guard Howard as effectively as Bass can.
Exactly.  When Dwight gets 7 offensive rebounds that lead to baskets, oh, there's the 14 points that we lost by.  I was really disappointed that Doc didn't play Jason Collins more last night.  More confused than disappointed actually.  I felt that was a no brainer.


Rondo is also a very good rebounder so that would've helped a lot but we've needed help in that department for a while
Rondo isn't going to keep Dwight from getting rebounds.


  While these may be true, we've won games before when Howard (or someone else) got a ton of rebounds. Sometimes you stop them from doing what they want, sometimes you do other things well to offset what they're doing well.
Very true.  Given that this was a nationally televised game last night, there is a good likelihood that Rondo could have given us that last night too.

  Yeah, as far as you know Rondo never plays well in games that aren't on national tv.

Re: Is it time to admit Rondo meant so much to this team?
« Reply #73 on: February 21, 2013, 02:42:51 PM »

Offline Clench123

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Yeah because, this team was playing so well when rondo was healthy.... ::) Listen, Rondo is a great player and will be missed come playoff time but lets not act like we weren't under 500 before the rondo injury.

Yea, like we didn't get to the conference finals last year with Rondo and a depleted...and years before that.  ::)

Short term memory here is killing me. 

Re: Is it time to admit Rondo meant so much to this team?
« Reply #74 on: February 21, 2013, 02:46:11 PM »

Offline OsirusCeltics

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Rondo's game is penetration and that's what we needed last night

Theory vs Practice

Rondo's attributes is good in theory, but not productive in practice

In theory he has freakishly long arms, big hands, athletic, fast, passing skills, can penetrate any defense, fire in the belly, hates losing

But in practice, like what he produces on the court, isn't anywhere near his attributes

Has long arms, but has horrible perimeter defense, lets his man drive the lane constantly
 
Has great passing skills, but causes too many turnovers and holds the ball stifling the offense

Can penetrate any defense, but where is this skill in the fourth quarter? Scared to attack the rim because he's scared of his bad free throw shooting

Fire in the belly, but has so much temper tantrums, which costs his team to lose games. I know everyone did not forget how he cost the Celtics to lose so many games because his best friend Perk was gone, and was "sad"

I like Rondo. But the thing about him is that he doesn't take advantage of his impressive skills, and way too inconsistent. I rather just have a less talented point guard who knows his role and increases the Celtics' winning totals

 

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