Author Topic: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward  (Read 3036 times)

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Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2013, 10:57:23 AM »

Offline LB3533

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I really like Bradley, but he cannot be a main type of guy that other teams prepare or gameplan for.

We need higher talent than that, IMO.

Bradley should be a guy that can sneak in and do damage. He should not be one of our primary offensive options.

Avery's greatest asset is that other teams will underestimate his abilities.

Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2013, 11:44:56 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Bradley has now officially morphed into a very frustrating offensive player. Mostly because he can't make a layup to save his life when there's someone within 3 feet of him, yet he insists to take it to the rack over and over.

While I can live with the unrepentant gunning from mid- and long-range (which for now appears to not fully correspond to his demonstrated shooting ability), but the overall shot selection remains poor this season -- which is extremely annoying.

Thank you. THANK YOU! I feel like I am the only one who notices this. Extremely frustrating. TP.

I'm noticing it a little bit, but I feel like they are shots that he can make.  I'm sure that's why he keeps doing it, because he feels the same way.  It's been sustaining for longer than I'd like, but I'm ok for it for now since we've been winning the majority of our games.  If it prolongs further or is happening while we are losing, then I'll be more annoyed.
I agree that in theory, going to the basket for an easy layup is a good thing, and these should mostly be makeable shots.

But it looks to me that when he takes it to a defender, Bradley always ends up with some sort of an off-balance, part-layup, part-floater, part-heave, which he's not very good at making (unlike, say, Rondo).

  Rondo's good at those shots but he really used to struggle with his floaters (through 2009 or so).

Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2013, 12:00:33 PM »

Online kozlodoev

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Rondo's good at those shots but he really used to struggle with his floaters (through 2009 or so).
Yeah, it's kind of bizarre -- he was great with floaters one year, and then absolutely terrible the next.
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Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2013, 12:16:21 PM »

Online pearljammer10

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Bradley has now officially morphed into a very frustrating offensive player. Mostly because he can't make a layup to save his life when there's someone within 3 feet of him, yet he insists to take it to the rack over and over.

While I can live with the unrepentant gunning from mid- and long-range (which for now appears to not fully correspond to his demonstrated shooting ability), but the overall shot selection remains poor this season -- which is extremely annoying.

Thank you. THANK YOU! I feel like I am the only one who notices this. Extremely frustrating. TP.

I'm noticing it a little bit, but I feel like they are shots that he can make.  I'm sure that's why he keeps doing it, because he feels the same way.  It's been sustaining for longer than I'd like, but I'm ok for it for now since we've been winning the majority of our games.  If it prolongs further or is happening while we are losing, then I'll be more annoyed.
I agree that in theory, going to the basket for an easy layup is a good thing, and these should mostly be makeable shots.

But it looks to me that when he takes it to a defender, Bradley always ends up with some sort of an off-balance, part-layup, part-floater, part-heave, which he's not very good at making (unlike, say, Rondo).

I too love seeing someone drive to the basket, I wish it was just someone other the Bradley. To me it seems that he tries to draw contact rather than focus on making the shot. It doing so he just gets swallowed up, throws the ball out of bounds, and just simply misses the easy bucket.
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Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2013, 12:25:29 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Rondo's good at those shots but he really used to struggle with his floaters (through 2009 or so).
Yeah, it's kind of bizarre -- he was great with floaters one year, and then absolutely terrible the next.

  I think some of that is that he didn't take enough of them to be consistent, part of it's sample size (a handful of makes over a season is the difference between woeful and average).

Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2013, 12:43:06 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I feel Bradley will be a PG moving foward or at least a combo type.  You can really see that his weakness is that he doesn't dribble with his left hand.  They now overplay him for that and essentially take the dribble away from him altogether.

I don't know if it is injury related or what but he will need to be able to dribble with his left hand if he intends to continue to rise.

Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2013, 12:47:02 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I feel Bradley will be a PG moving foward or at least a combo type.  You can really see that his weakness is that he doesn't dribble with his left hand.  They now overplay him for that and essentially take the dribble away from him altogether.

I don't know if it is injury related or what but he will need to be able to dribble with his left hand if he intends to continue to rise.

  He's not a great ball handler, not a great passer, not great at running an offense and not always the best decision maker.

  Not that that's really a slight, I probably said similar things about Ray when he was here, but right now Lee's more of our pg than Bradley.

Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2013, 01:17:27 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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I agree with all of your points LarBrd33.  It's not that I don't like Rondo -- I do -- but I just agree that we have a very good player in Bradley who is very worthy of NBA minutes right now and his best skill is defense, but can't do such as well as he can if he's guarding SGs instead of PGs.  So why not trade away the PG who can get us more back at other positions, which is Rondo, when Rondo's best skill has proved to not be necessary for a championship team.

Rondo's best skills--passing, defense, rebounding, scoring when he needs to, having the ability to take over big ball games like only a handful of players in the league can--have led our team to within a game of the NBA championship and to within a game of the Eastern Conference championship in the last three years. 

He's being re-written as a one-trick pony around here lately.  This simply is not the case.  When you have an elite talent in the league at a bargain price, you keep him. 

Memories are awfully short on this forum these days.  People are acting like the 38 games that he played in to start this season (not all of them as awful as they are frequently made out to be, by the way) define what he's done for this team over the course of the last four seasons.

You are absolutely right, but I think I am too.  I said Rondo's "best skill has proved to not be necessary for a championship team".  I still think being a masterful passer is his best skill, not only skill, and I still think that's not necessary for a championship team.  As for his other skills, yes he is a very good defender, but not as good as the player he's being compared to in Bradley.  Rebounding, yes he's maybe the best for his position, but a team with excellent rebounding guards is not going to make you an excellent rebounding team.  Scoring is something he absolutely brings to the table.  The most overlooked part of his game is his ability to take over a game, like you mentioned.  So hard to quantify, but he's one of the best in the sport for his ability to do so.

I do realize that he is an "elite talent at a bargain price" which is exactly why I think he could fetch a lot in return.  A lot more than Bradley could.  It's not who I want more as a player - that answer is clearly Rondo, its whether or not Bradley + player acquired for Rondo is better than Rondo + player acquired for Bradley.

I guess we agree on all that then.  Apparently, where we disagree is that you would prefer not to have a Rondo/Bradley starting back court for the future of the Celtics while I think that back court can be really good for us.

We'll need help in the front court, but it's a start. 
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Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #53 on: February 20, 2013, 01:21:31 PM »

Online pearljammer10

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I feel Bradley will be a PG moving foward or at least a combo type.  You can really see that his weakness is that he doesn't dribble with his left hand.  They now overplay him for that and essentially take the dribble away from him altogether.

I don't know if it is injury related or what but he will need to be able to dribble with his left hand if he intends to continue to rise.

  He's not a great ball handler, not a great passer, not great at running an offense and not always the best decision maker.

  Not that that's really a slight, I probably said similar things about Ray when he was here, but right now Lee's more of our pg than Bradley.

I like Lee playing the PG role much more than Bradley. Things run much more smoothly.
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SG:Williams/Miller/Delladova
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PF:Green/Hill/Powell
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Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #54 on: February 20, 2013, 01:51:16 PM »

Offline gar

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Bradley is still not playing up to his pre-injury level; but that does not mean that his a starting PG - yet. Lee is just as capable as is T-Will and Jet. I like the fact that Danny got some guards who can play. Let them figure it out; but to say Bradley has distinguished himself already as "the guy" going forward is premature.

Bradley as "starting PG moving forward" means automatically that you are giving up on this season and building for 3-4 years down the road. There are better options out there. That is the problem with falling in love with Bradley as a player, he is not a Chauncy Billups. He is an undersized 2.

Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #55 on: February 20, 2013, 02:04:24 PM »

Offline scaryjerry

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I feel Bradley will be a PG moving foward or at least a combo type.  You can really see that his weakness is that he doesn't dribble with his left hand.  They now overplay him for that and essentially take the dribble away from him altogether.

I don't know if it is injury related or what but he will need to be able to dribble with his left hand if he intends to continue to rise.

  He's not a great ball handler, not a great passer, not great at running an offense and not always the best decision maker.

  Not that that's really a slight, I probably said similar things about Ray when he was here, but right now Lee's more of our pg than Bradley.

I guess I'm watching something different because I see Bradley being asked to carry more of the point guard duties then Lee..and for all the frustration over Bradley's game and ball handling..how many easy layups does Courtney miss? Where are all his great offensive weapons and ball handling skills? I like both players but I don't get the consensus some have that Lee is superior

Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #56 on: February 20, 2013, 02:06:02 PM »

Offline scaryjerry

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I feel Bradley will be a PG moving foward or at least a combo type.  You can really see that his weakness is that he doesn't dribble with his left hand.  They now overplay him for that and essentially take the dribble away from him altogether.

I don't know if it is injury related or what but he will need to be able to dribble with his left hand if he intends to continue to rise.

  He's not a great ball handler, not a great passer, not great at running an offense and not always the best decision maker.

  Not that that's really a slight, I probably said similar things about Ray when he was here, but right now Lee's more of our pg than Bradley.

I like Lee playing the PG role much more than Bradley. Things run much more smoothly.

So is doc just an idiot? Because clearly he disagrees

As a matter of fact don't see Lee playing any point at all, he brings the ball up occasionally...so does Jeff green, is he playing point then to? Contrary I see an attempt at Bradley being the point

Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #57 on: February 20, 2013, 02:33:25 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Two things that are slightly conflicting.

#1 - Is there a position more overrated in this league than point guard?  You clearly don't need an elite point guard to win a championship.  In fact, I just went back year-by-year to see if there was a single team that won a title due to having an "Elite Distributor".  SHocking... none of them do.  I had to go back to 1990 to find a single champion who had a PG averaging over 8 assists... and not surprisingly that was Isiah Thomas (who also happened to be the Pistons leading scorer):

2012 - Mario Chalmers - 11 points, 4 assists
2011 - Washed up 37 year old Jason Kidd - 9 points 7 assists
2010 - Derek Fisher - 10 points, 2.5 assists
2009 - Derek Fisher - 10 points, 2.8 assists
2008 - 4th wheel 22 year old rondo - 11 points, 7 assists
2007 - Parker - 20 points, 5.5 assists
2006 - J-Will - 9 points, 4 assists
2005 - Parker - 17 points, 4 assists
2004 - Billups - 16 points, 6 assists
2003 - Parker - 15 points, 3.5 assists
2002 - Fisher - 10 points, 3 assists
2001 - Fisher - 13 points, 3 assists
2000 - Ron Harper, I guess -   8 points 3 assists
1999 - Avery Johnson  - 12 points, 7.4 assists
1998 - Ron Harper  6 points 2 assists
1997 - Ron Harper -  7 points, 3 assists
1996 - Ron Harper - 7 points, 3 assists
1995 - Kenny Smith - 10 points 4 assists
1994 - Kenny Smith - 10 points, 4 assists
1993 - BJ Armstrong - 11 points 3 assists
1992 - John Paxson - 8 points, 3 assists
1991 - John Paxson - 8 points, 3 assists
1990 - Isiah Thomas - 20.5 points, 8 assists

  If Rondo (or Ray or Perk) had been healthier in the finals we'd have won the title in 2010. Obviously we can win a title with Rondo. Since we have him and we've seen we can be contenders with him the question you should be asking is whether we're more  likely to win a title with that "2010 model" around Rondo or to win a title by getting the Jordan/LeBron/TD/Hakeem/Shaq/Kobe type of player that those teams had. Because, sure, if you can get one of those players then I'd agree we don't need Rondo.
We can win a title with Rondo (we have), but not because of Rondo (we haven't).  Elite big men (KG) and elite scorers (Ray and Pierce) win titles in this league.  Not guys who can get a lot of assists.

Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #58 on: February 20, 2013, 02:36:10 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Bradley is not a PG, so it's really doesn't matter what you like.  Doc tried this last year and it was brutal but he became a player at SG.
If you look at my list, you'll find that several champions won titles without a conventional point guard.  Was Fisher much of a passer, ball handler?  How about Ron Harper?  Was Ron Harper even a point guard?

Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #59 on: February 20, 2013, 02:43:13 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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Two things that are slightly conflicting.

#1 - Is there a position more overrated in this league than point guard?  You clearly don't need an elite point guard to win a championship.  In fact, I just went back year-by-year to see if there was a single team that won a title due to having an "Elite Distributor".  SHocking... none of them do.  I had to go back to 1990 to find a single champion who had a PG averaging over 8 assists... and not surprisingly that was Isiah Thomas (who also happened to be the Pistons leading scorer):

2012 - Mario Chalmers - 11 points, 4 assists
2011 - Washed up 37 year old Jason Kidd - 9 points 7 assists
2010 - Derek Fisher - 10 points, 2.5 assists
2009 - Derek Fisher - 10 points, 2.8 assists
2008 - 4th wheel 22 year old rondo - 11 points, 7 assists
2007 - Parker - 20 points, 5.5 assists
2006 - J-Will - 9 points, 4 assists
2005 - Parker - 17 points, 4 assists
2004 - Billups - 16 points, 6 assists
2003 - Parker - 15 points, 3.5 assists
2002 - Fisher - 10 points, 3 assists
2001 - Fisher - 13 points, 3 assists
2000 - Ron Harper, I guess -   8 points 3 assists
1999 - Avery Johnson  - 12 points, 7.4 assists
1998 - Ron Harper  6 points 2 assists
1997 - Ron Harper -  7 points, 3 assists
1996 - Ron Harper - 7 points, 3 assists
1995 - Kenny Smith - 10 points 4 assists
1994 - Kenny Smith - 10 points, 4 assists
1993 - BJ Armstrong - 11 points 3 assists
1992 - John Paxson - 8 points, 3 assists
1991 - John Paxson - 8 points, 3 assists
1990 - Isiah Thomas - 20.5 points, 8 assists

  If Rondo (or Ray or Perk) had been healthier in the finals we'd have won the title in 2010. Obviously we can win a title with Rondo. Since we have him and we've seen we can be contenders with him the question you should be asking is whether we're more  likely to win a title with that "2010 model" around Rondo or to win a title by getting the Jordan/LeBron/TD/Hakeem/Shaq/Kobe type of player that those teams had. Because, sure, if you can get one of those players then I'd agree we don't need Rondo.
We can win a title with Rondo (we have), but not because of Rondo (we haven't).  Elite big men (KG) and elite scorers (Ray and Pierce) win titles in this league.  Not guys who can get a lot of assists.

But, we have gotten to a game seven of the finals and game  seven of the ECF against the best team in the league because of Rondo.
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