Author Topic: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward  (Read 3046 times)

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Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2013, 08:35:30 AM »

Offline dreamgreen

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Bradley is a nice player but that is where it ends, he is way over rated on this site. IMO he would be better as the third guard coming off the bench.

Question, what kind of contract is he going to be looking for?

Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2013, 08:46:21 AM »

Offline RJ87

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Even when Rondo was healthy, Bradley usually defended PGs and Rondo the off guard. Its a relatively small sample size (the latter half of last season and the few games this season) but that backcourt is as disruptive defensively as any in the league. On the other end, its also pretty effective. Bradley is a much more dynamic player when he's playing off the ball. People have short memories, but the Rondo + Bradley backcourt got Ray Allen benched - that's how effective it was.
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Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2013, 08:50:26 AM »

Offline scaryjerry

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Even when Rondo was healthy, Bradley usually defended PGs and Rondo the off guard. Its a relatively small sample size (the latter half of last season and the few games this season) but that backcourt is as disruptive defensively as any in the league. On the other end, its also pretty effective. Bradley is a much more dynamic player when he's playing off the ball. People have short memories, but the Rondo + Bradley backcourt got Ray Allen benched - that's how effective it was.


This. Rondo and Bradley fit perfectly, covered up each other's weaknesses and all.

I love how Lee is so much taller and a more natural 2  ::) ::)..oh wait when they stand next to each other there's like a half inch difference.

Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2013, 09:06:05 AM »

Offline ScottHow

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Bradley needs to get a lot better at his handle for me to feel comfortable.

If teams were smart they would pressure him like he does to them.

Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2013, 09:12:22 AM »

Offline triboy16f

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NO

AB is a shooting guard, part time PG. He was having a heck of a time against lawson yesterday again.

Lawson, Collison, Bledsoe and any other quick/intelligent pg's all give him problems. Its bc he doesn't think like a pg , that's the issue

But against, Kobe, Wade etc. He will give them hell bc he understands their ways better.
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Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2013, 09:45:39 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Bradley has now officially morphed into a very frustrating offensive player. Mostly because he can't make a layup to save his life when there's someone within 3 feet of him, yet he insists to take it to the rack over and over.

While I can live with the unrepentant gunning from mid- and long-range (which for now appears to not fully correspond to his demonstrated shooting ability), but the overall shot selection remains poor this season -- which is extremely annoying.
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Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2013, 09:58:58 AM »

Offline action781

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Can anybody look up what Bradley's career record is when starting at point guard?

I agree and admit the way he runs an offense always isn't pretty, but neither is Z-Bo's offensive game, Joakim Noah's free throw form, etc.  The effectiveness is more important than how pretty it is.
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Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2013, 10:05:32 AM »

Offline pearljammer10

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Bradley has now officially morphed into a very frustrating offensive player. Mostly because he can't make a layup to save his life when there's someone within 3 feet of him, yet he insists to take it to the rack over and over.

While I can live with the unrepentant gunning from mid- and long-range (which for now appears to not fully correspond to his demonstrated shooting ability), but the overall shot selection remains poor this season -- which is extremely annoying.

Thank you. THANK YOU! I feel like I am the only one who notices this. Extremely frustrating. TP.
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PG:Rondo/Udrih/Dinwiddle
SG:Williams/Miller/Delladova
SF:Afflalo/Young
PF:Green/Hill/Powell
C:Hibbert/Nurcik/Bynum

Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2013, 10:09:06 AM »

Offline action781

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I agree with all of your points LarBrd33.  It's not that I don't like Rondo -- I do -- but I just agree that we have a very good player in Bradley who is very worthy of NBA minutes right now and his best skill is defense, but can't do such as well as he can if he's guarding SGs instead of PGs.  So why not trade away the PG who can get us more back at other positions, which is Rondo, when Rondo's best skill has proved to not be necessary for a championship team.

Rondo's best skills--passing, defense, rebounding, scoring when he needs to, having the ability to take over big ball games like only a handful of players in the league can--have led our team to within a game of the NBA championship and to within a game of the Eastern Conference championship in the last three years. 

He's being re-written as a one-trick pony around here lately.  This simply is not the case.  When you have an elite talent in the league at a bargain price, you keep him. 

Memories are awfully short on this forum these days.  People are acting like the 38 games that he played in to start this season (not all of them as awful as they are frequently made out to be, by the way) define what he's done for this team over the course of the last four seasons.

You are absolutely right, but I think I am too.  I said Rondo's "best skill has proved to not be necessary for a championship team".  I still think being a masterful passer is his best skill, not only skill, and I still think that's not necessary for a championship team.  As for his other skills, yes he is a very good defender, but not as good as the player he's being compared to in Bradley.  Rebounding, yes he's maybe the best for his position, but a team with excellent rebounding guards is not going to make you an excellent rebounding team.  Scoring is something he absolutely brings to the table.  The most overlooked part of his game is his ability to take over a game, like you mentioned.  So hard to quantify, but he's one of the best in the sport for his ability to do so.

I do realize that he is an "elite talent at a bargain price" which is exactly why I think he could fetch a lot in return.  A lot more than Bradley could.  It's not who I want more as a player - that answer is clearly Rondo, its whether or not Bradley + player acquired for Rondo is better than Rondo + player acquired for Bradley.
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Tony Parker, Courtney Lee, Rudy Gay, Zach Randolph, Marc Gasol
Jeff Teague, Paul George, Trevor Ariza, Chuck Hayes, Channing Frye
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Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2013, 10:14:41 AM »

Offline action781

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Bradley has now officially morphed into a very frustrating offensive player. Mostly because he can't make a layup to save his life when there's someone within 3 feet of him, yet he insists to take it to the rack over and over.

While I can live with the unrepentant gunning from mid- and long-range (which for now appears to not fully correspond to his demonstrated shooting ability), but the overall shot selection remains poor this season -- which is extremely annoying.

Thank you. THANK YOU! I feel like I am the only one who notices this. Extremely frustrating. TP.

I'm noticing it a little bit, but I feel like they are shots that he can make.  I'm sure that's why he keeps doing it, because he feels the same way.  It's been sustaining for longer than I'd like, but I'm ok for it for now since we've been winning the majority of our games.  If it prolongs further or is happening while we are losing, then I'll be more annoyed.
.................to the
Assistant ^ General Manager for the Pawnee Pacers

Tony Parker, Courtney Lee, Rudy Gay, Zach Randolph, Marc Gasol
Jeff Teague, Paul George, Trevor Ariza, Chuck Hayes, Channing Frye
Kemba Walker, Andres Nocioni, Jason Collins

Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2013, 10:23:46 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Two things that are slightly conflicting.

#1 - Is there a position more overrated in this league than point guard?  You clearly don't need an elite point guard to win a championship.  In fact, I just went back year-by-year to see if there was a single team that won a title due to having an "Elite Distributor".  SHocking... none of them do.  I had to go back to 1990 to find a single champion who had a PG averaging over 8 assists... and not surprisingly that was Isiah Thomas (who also happened to be the Pistons leading scorer):

2012 - Mario Chalmers - 11 points, 4 assists
2011 - Washed up 37 year old Jason Kidd - 9 points 7 assists
2010 - Derek Fisher - 10 points, 2.5 assists
2009 - Derek Fisher - 10 points, 2.8 assists
2008 - 4th wheel 22 year old rondo - 11 points, 7 assists
2007 - Parker - 20 points, 5.5 assists
2006 - J-Will - 9 points, 4 assists
2005 - Parker - 17 points, 4 assists
2004 - Billups - 16 points, 6 assists
2003 - Parker - 15 points, 3.5 assists
2002 - Fisher - 10 points, 3 assists
2001 - Fisher - 13 points, 3 assists
2000 - Ron Harper, I guess -   8 points 3 assists
1999 - Avery Johnson  - 12 points, 7.4 assists
1998 - Ron Harper  6 points 2 assists
1997 - Ron Harper -  7 points, 3 assists
1996 - Ron Harper - 7 points, 3 assists
1995 - Kenny Smith - 10 points 4 assists
1994 - Kenny Smith - 10 points, 4 assists
1993 - BJ Armstrong - 11 points 3 assists
1992 - John Paxson - 8 points, 3 assists
1991 - John Paxson - 8 points, 3 assists
1990 - Isiah Thomas - 20.5 points, 8 assists

... So traditional point guards don't mean crap in this league.   What's also not surprising about that list is that essentially EVERY SINGLE TEAM had an elite scorer and an elite big man... or in some instances just an elite big man.   Whether it's Dirk + Tyson Chandler... or KG + Pierce... or Shaq + Kobe.  Or Hakeem + Drexler.  Wade + Shaq.  Duncan + Parker/Ginoboli.  Kobe + Pau.   Even last year, you have to count Bosh as an elite Big to go with LeBron.  That is, if you aren't just counting LeBron... who is 6'9 and 270... qualifies as a big most decades. 

You want to talk about that flukey Pistons team?  Fine... they had two elite bigs (Wallace Brothers)... don't forget that Ben Wallace averaged 14 boards, 2.3 blocks and 2 steals in the playoffs.  Rip Hamilton averaged 22 points in the playoffs... Billups was important, but bigs and scoring win titles.

Even the freakin Chicago Bulls... yes, they had two of the greatest players of all time (Jordan and Pippen), but they won their first 3 with all-star big man Horace Grant... and they won their next 3 with Dennis Rodman.  Certainly not a traditional "big man", but Rodman was a two time defensive player of the year at the PF position and the best rebounder in the league.  What more do you need to qualify as an "elite big".




#2 -  Conflicting with above is the fact that the league is evolving into a small-man's game.  Scoring point guards are all over the place.  You may in fact have a team win a title with a Derrick Rose leading the way... or a Russell Westbrook as a key scorer.  Clearly this year TOny Parker is a driving force for the Spurs offense (averaging 21 points).  Chris Paul is a mighty distributor, but he's also his team's 1st or 2nd option on offense.  Kyrie Irving is the hottest young star in the league (dropping 24 a night).    If you cant go out and get one of those dynamic scoring point guards, it seems a solid defensive point guard would be nice to have in your arsenal.  I like Bradley as our starting PG.  Sure, we probably aren't winning a title unless he's our 5th best starter, but I'm comfortable focusing on the other positions.  Trade Rondo when the package is right.

Side note:  I'm sure Ainge realizes this.  Part of the reason he's been trying to trade Rondo every single year.

You're right that over the past 23 years, a vast majority of championship teams haven't been led by great point guards--the only exceptions being the Spurs with Tony Parker, Isiah's Piston's back in 1990, and Billups (sort of) for the 2004 Pistons. 

I think you have hit on something with point #2, though; with the league being so point guard dominant right now, that seems bound to change some time in the near future.  Luckily, we already have an elite point guard.
The league may be PG driven right now, but those PG driven teams still haven't won a title and the clear favorite this year is once again the Heat with Chalmers once again their PG.

  If you look at the league since 1980 there are a handful of players that have led their teams to multiple titles. Bird, Magic, Thomas, Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq and Kobe. Figure to add one or both of LeBron and Durant to that list soon. If you have a player like that you're on your way, just put enough talent around them and you're fairly likely to win a title.

  Analyzing the relative strength of the other players is a fairly meaningless exercise. Planning your roster based on that analysis is also meaningless. If you don't have a player on that level then trying to construct a supporting cast for one makes no sense, if you have one then surrounding them with talent is more important than trying to construct an exact replica of the roster that Shaq or Bird or Jordan had. If you don't have a player like that you should acquire as much talent as possible and try and sneak through, like the Pistons or the Mavs or like the Celts almost did in 2010.

Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2013, 10:28:01 AM »

Offline snowball

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I like Bradley over Rondo at PG also.
Rondo's value is in trade. The team
is going to need athletic powerful bigs.

Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2013, 10:33:25 AM »

Offline BballTim

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I agree with all of your points LarBrd33.  It's not that I don't like Rondo -- I do -- but I just agree that we have a very good player in Bradley who is very worthy of NBA minutes right now and his best skill is defense, but can't do such as well as he can if he's guarding SGs instead of PGs.  So why not trade away the PG who can get us more back at other positions, which is Rondo, when Rondo's best skill has proved to not be necessary for a championship team.

Rondo's best skills--passing, defense, rebounding, scoring when he needs to, having the ability to take over big ball games like only a handful of players in the league can--have led our team to within a game of the NBA championship and to within a game of the Eastern Conference championship in the last three years. 

He's being re-written as a one-trick pony around here lately.  This simply is not the case.  When you have an elite talent in the league at a bargain price, you keep him. 

Memories are awfully short on this forum these days.  People are acting like the 38 games that he played in to start this season (not all of them as awful as they are frequently made out to be, by the way) define what he's done for this team over the course of the last four seasons.

You are absolutely right, but I think I am too.  I said Rondo's "best skill has proved to not be necessary for a championship team".  I still think being a masterful passer is his best skill, not only skill, and I still think that's not necessary for a championship team.  As for his other skills, yes he is a very good defender, but not as good as the player he's being compared to in Bradley.  Rebounding, yes he's maybe the best for his position, but a team with excellent rebounding guards is not going to make you an excellent rebounding team.  Scoring is something he absolutely brings to the table.  The most overlooked part of his game is his ability to take over a game, like you mentioned.  So hard to quantify, but he's one of the best in the sport for his ability to do so.

  Coincidentally, players with the ability to take over games is one of the skills that are absolutely vital to championship teams. You'd be hard pressed to name champions that lacked such players.

Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2013, 10:40:13 AM »

Offline Kevin72790

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I like a Rondo/Bradley back court for the future.  Yes, they are undersized, but defensively they can really wreak havoc on the opposition.  I want to see them form the basis for a defensive minded, high turnover producing, up tempo team.

An up-tempo team doesn't need Rondo; they need to advance the ball with the pass.

And in the half-court, it doesn't matter who runs the offense.

Frankly, Bradley/Lee are probably no less potent as exactly the type of backcourt you're hoping for.

Yippee!  It's like a no-lose situation.  Gosh, Danny is good!
To the bolded part- Congrats, you don't know a lot about basketball and totally under appreciate what Rondo does. Here's a quote from Doc Rivers supporting my stance.

"I like the way we're playing, I like our vibe and spirit. We're playing selfless and free. That's how we have to be. Our pace has to stay. We're honestly not good enough ballhandlers to play half court. We can't get stuck in that. We don't have one guy that is good enough with the ball that is good enough to orchestrate our offense."

So, there. I hate to sound rude with the first comment but it really bugs me how so many people think we are better without Rondo.

Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2013, 10:55:12 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Bradley has now officially morphed into a very frustrating offensive player. Mostly because he can't make a layup to save his life when there's someone within 3 feet of him, yet he insists to take it to the rack over and over.

While I can live with the unrepentant gunning from mid- and long-range (which for now appears to not fully correspond to his demonstrated shooting ability), but the overall shot selection remains poor this season -- which is extremely annoying.

Thank you. THANK YOU! I feel like I am the only one who notices this. Extremely frustrating. TP.

I'm noticing it a little bit, but I feel like they are shots that he can make.  I'm sure that's why he keeps doing it, because he feels the same way.  It's been sustaining for longer than I'd like, but I'm ok for it for now since we've been winning the majority of our games.  If it prolongs further or is happening while we are losing, then I'll be more annoyed.
I agree that in theory, going to the basket for an easy layup is a good thing, and these should mostly be makeable shots.

But it looks to me that when he takes it to a defender, Bradley always ends up with some sort of an off-balance, part-layup, part-floater, part-heave, which he's not very good at making (unlike, say, Rondo).
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