Author Topic: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward  (Read 2935 times)

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I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« on: February 19, 2013, 11:38:55 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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If it was up to me, I'm thinking you either trade Rondo for a big (probably have to wait until the offseason when Rondo is closer to being healthy) or trade Bradley if he has value.  I don't think you can keep both.

I don't like the idea of Bradley as a starting shooting guard.  He's too small and he's not a good offensive player.  Sure he had 17 tonight, but he's a very inefficient scorer. He's shooting under 40% for the season.

I look at it like this... Rondo's a flawed point guard with an elite skill - passing (arguably... some might say he just gets lot of assists due to his system).   Bradley is a flawed point guard with an elite skill - defense. 

I look at the way this league is going... it's littered with great scoring point guards.   Point guards like Rose,  D-Will, Chris Paul, Westbrook, Steph Curry, Kyrie Irving... Tony Parker.   There's up and comers like Damian Lillard, Brandon Jennings, Jrue Holiday, Kemba Walker... it's just the way the league is going.  Half the league has a point guard who is dropping 15+ a night.

I mean most of these guys are in their early 20s.  They aren't going anywhere anytime soon.  It's a league flooded with scoring point guards.  It seems to me that unless you can land an elite scoring point guard yourself, the next best thing would to be to have an elite defensive point guard.  And that's what Bradley is.  He's point guard sized... he's a defensive role player.  And in a league dominated by scoring points, it would make sense counteract that some way.  Bradley can be a disruptive force for most of this league.

Now don't get me wrong.  I already admitted Bradley is a poor offensive player.  He's also not much of a passer.  Rondo unquestionably can run an offense better than Bradley.  Rondo is a Grade-A distributor.  But name me one recent champion who won a title, because of an "elite distributor".  It doesn't happen.  You need an elite big man and an elite scorer to win a title in this league... not someone who does a fine job at passing to shooters. 

And so, if it were up to me, I'd move Rondo to the highest bidder once he's healthy.  Try to get some chips so that eventually we can land an elite big man and an elite scorer to replace KG and Pierce.  If we maximize Rondo's trade value, we could get some assets to eventually fill one of those roles.  Meanwhile, just let Bradley stick around as the starting PG.  If we land an elite scorer, we don't have to worry about the ball flowing through Bradley.  It's not like the Heat rely much on Mario Chalmers. If we can't have a scoring PG... an elite defensive PG is the next best thing.

Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2013, 11:45:02 PM »

Offline rondohondo

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Bradley is not a pg, his handle is very suspect

Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2013, 11:46:10 PM »

Offline More Banners

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He sees to be what we hoped Banks was.

I agree with your reasoning on a defensive PG.  We got that; let's focus on the other positions.

Could Green be the scoring wing, leaving us only in need of the big (and scorer himself)?

I have to also agree with the notion that

Pierce + KG = Something special.

We should maximize this opportunity.  If we can get a big for Rondo now, then we got to go for it, IMO.  All-in, baby. 

We're the Celtics, for Red's sake!

Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2013, 11:47:46 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Bradley is not a pg, his handle is very suspect
he's not a SG either.  But at least at PG he is a better defensive matchup for a league flooded with scoring PGs.  There aren't a lot of elite SG's in this league anymore.  It's like Dwayne Wade, James Harden and that's pretty much it.

So either play Bradley as a starting PG... or trade him to some other team looking for a role player.  In this league you don't necessarily need a ball-dominant point guard anyways.  Most champions don't have one.

Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2013, 11:49:27 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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I like a Rondo/Bradley back court for the future.  Yes, they are undersized, but defensively they can really wreak havoc on the opposition.  I want to see them form the basis for a defensive minded, high turnover producing, up tempo team. 

Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2013, 11:50:04 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Hate Bradley as a PG. Too trigger happy for his own good, with suspect handles and decision making.

Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2013, 11:50:23 PM »

Offline CelticConcourse

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Bradley is not a pg, his handle is very suspect

Big TO tonight late in game
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Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2013, 11:53:48 PM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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He cant set up teammates for easy shots nor score at a high rate. If we have a 2 guard who can do both then I guess it shouldnt be a problem.

If its just his defense againts PG alone which is why Bradley should be PG, we're going to have a bad time offensively.
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Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2013, 11:54:50 PM »

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I like a Rondo/Bradley back court for the future.  Yes, they are undersized, but defensively they can really wreak havoc on the opposition.  I want to see them form the basis for a defensive minded, high turnover producing, up tempo team.

An up-tempo team doesn't need Rondo; they need to advance the ball with the pass.

And in the half-court, it doesn't matter who runs the offense.

Frankly, Bradley/Lee are probably no less potent as exactly the type of backcourt you're hoping for.

Yippee!  It's like a no-lose situation.  Gosh, Danny is good!

Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2013, 11:56:46 PM »

Offline Kane3387

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Bradley is not a pg, his handle is very suspect
he's not a SG either.  But at least at PG he is a better defensive matchup for a league flooded with scoring PGs.  There aren't a lot of elite SG's in this league anymore.  It's like Dwayne Wade, James Harden and that's pretty much it.

So either play Bradley as a starting PG... or trade him to some other team looking for a role player.  In this league you don't necessarily need a ball-dominant point guard anyways.  Most champions don't have one.

When is the last time a team did?

SA against Cleveland?

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Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2013, 12:17:26 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Two things that are slightly conflicting.

#1 - Is there a position more overrated in this league than point guard?  You clearly don't need an elite point guard to win a championship.  In fact, I just went back year-by-year to see if there was a single team that won a title due to having an "Elite Distributor".  SHocking... none of them do.  I had to go back to 1990 to find a single champion who had a PG averaging over 8 assists... and not surprisingly that was Isiah Thomas (who also happened to be the Pistons leading scorer):

2012 - Mario Chalmers - 11 points, 4 assists
2011 - Washed up 37 year old Jason Kidd - 9 points 7 assists
2010 - Derek Fisher - 10 points, 2.5 assists
2009 - Derek Fisher - 10 points, 2.8 assists
2008 - 4th wheel 22 year old rondo - 11 points, 7 assists
2007 - Parker - 20 points, 5.5 assists
2006 - J-Will - 9 points, 4 assists
2005 - Parker - 17 points, 4 assists
2004 - Billups - 16 points, 6 assists
2003 - Parker - 15 points, 3.5 assists
2002 - Fisher - 10 points, 3 assists
2001 - Fisher - 13 points, 3 assists
2000 - Ron Harper, I guess -   8 points 3 assists
1999 - Avery Johnson  - 12 points, 7.4 assists
1998 - Ron Harper  6 points 2 assists
1997 - Ron Harper -  7 points, 3 assists
1996 - Ron Harper - 7 points, 3 assists
1995 - Kenny Smith - 10 points 4 assists
1994 - Kenny Smith - 10 points, 4 assists
1993 - BJ Armstrong - 11 points 3 assists
1992 - John Paxson - 8 points, 3 assists
1991 - John Paxson - 8 points, 3 assists
1990 - Isiah Thomas - 20.5 points, 8 assists

... So traditional point guards don't mean crap in this league.   What's also not surprising about that list is that essentially EVERY SINGLE TEAM had an elite scorer and an elite big man... or in some instances just an elite big man.   Whether it's Dirk + Tyson Chandler... or KG + Pierce... or Shaq + Kobe.  Or Hakeem + Drexler.  Wade + Shaq.  Duncan + Parker/Ginoboli.  Kobe + Pau.   Even last year, you have to count Bosh as an elite Big to go with LeBron.  That is, if you aren't just counting LeBron... who is 6'9 and 270... qualifies as a big most decades. 

You want to talk about that flukey Pistons team?  Fine... they had two elite bigs (Wallace Brothers)... don't forget that Ben Wallace averaged 14 boards, 2.3 blocks and 2 steals in the playoffs.  Rip Hamilton averaged 22 points in the playoffs... Billups was important, but bigs and scoring win titles.

Even the freakin Chicago Bulls... yes, they had two of the greatest players of all time (Jordan and Pippen), but they won their first 3 with all-star big man Horace Grant... and they won their next 3 with Dennis Rodman.  Certainly not a traditional "big man", but Rodman was a two time defensive player of the year at the PF position and the best rebounder in the league.  What more do you need to qualify as an "elite big".




#2 -  Conflicting with above is the fact that the league is evolving into a small-man's game.  Scoring point guards are all over the place.  You may in fact have a team win a title with a Derrick Rose leading the way... or a Russell Westbrook as a key scorer.  Clearly this year TOny Parker is a driving force for the Spurs offense (averaging 21 points).  Chris Paul is a mighty distributor, but he's also his team's 1st or 2nd option on offense.  Kyrie Irving is the hottest young star in the league (dropping 24 a night).    If you cant go out and get one of those dynamic scoring point guards, it seems a solid defensive point guard would be nice to have in your arsenal.  I like Bradley as our starting PG.  Sure, we probably aren't winning a title unless he's our 5th best starter, but I'm comfortable focusing on the other positions.  Trade Rondo when the package is right.

Side note:  I'm sure Ainge realizes this.  Part of the reason he's been trying to trade Rondo every single year.


« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 12:23:26 AM by LarBrd33 »

Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2013, 12:36:56 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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Two things that are slightly conflicting.

#1 - Is there a position more overrated in this league than point guard?  You clearly don't need an elite point guard to win a championship.  In fact, I just went back year-by-year to see if there was a single team that won a title due to having an "Elite Distributor".  SHocking... none of them do.  I had to go back to 1990 to find a single champion who had a PG averaging over 8 assists... and not surprisingly that was Isiah Thomas (who also happened to be the Pistons leading scorer):

2012 - Mario Chalmers - 11 points, 4 assists
2011 - Washed up 37 year old Jason Kidd - 9 points 7 assists
2010 - Derek Fisher - 10 points, 2.5 assists
2009 - Derek Fisher - 10 points, 2.8 assists
2008 - 4th wheel 22 year old rondo - 11 points, 7 assists
2007 - Parker - 20 points, 5.5 assists
2006 - J-Will - 9 points, 4 assists
2005 - Parker - 17 points, 4 assists
2004 - Billups - 16 points, 6 assists
2003 - Parker - 15 points, 3.5 assists
2002 - Fisher - 10 points, 3 assists
2001 - Fisher - 13 points, 3 assists
2000 - Ron Harper, I guess -   8 points 3 assists
1999 - Avery Johnson  - 12 points, 7.4 assists
1998 - Ron Harper  6 points 2 assists
1997 - Ron Harper -  7 points, 3 assists
1996 - Ron Harper - 7 points, 3 assists
1995 - Kenny Smith - 10 points 4 assists
1994 - Kenny Smith - 10 points, 4 assists
1993 - BJ Armstrong - 11 points 3 assists
1992 - John Paxson - 8 points, 3 assists
1991 - John Paxson - 8 points, 3 assists
1990 - Isiah Thomas - 20.5 points, 8 assists

... So traditional point guards don't mean crap in this league.   What's also not surprising about that list is that essentially EVERY SINGLE TEAM had an elite scorer and an elite big man... or in some instances just an elite big man.   Whether it's Dirk + Tyson Chandler... or KG + Pierce... or Shaq + Kobe.  Or Hakeem + Drexler.  Wade + Shaq.  Duncan + Parker/Ginoboli.  Kobe + Pau.   Even last year, you have to count Bosh as an elite Big to go with LeBron.  That is, if you aren't just counting LeBron... who is 6'9 and 270... qualifies as a big most decades. 

You want to talk about that flukey Pistons team?  Fine... they had two elite bigs (Wallace Brothers)... don't forget that Ben Wallace averaged 14 boards, 2.3 blocks and 2 steals in the playoffs.  Rip Hamilton averaged 22 points in the playoffs... Billups was important, but bigs and scoring win titles.

Even the freakin Chicago Bulls... yes, they had two of the greatest players of all time (Jordan and Pippen), but they won their first 3 with all-star big man Horace Grant... and they won their next 3 with Dennis Rodman.  Certainly not a traditional "big man", but Rodman was a two time defensive player of the year at the PF position and the best rebounder in the league.  What more do you need to qualify as an "elite big".




#2 -  Conflicting with above is the fact that the league is evolving into a small-man's game.  Scoring point guards are all over the place.  You may in fact have a team win a title with a Derrick Rose leading the way... or a Russell Westbrook as a key scorer.  Clearly this year TOny Parker is a driving force for the Spurs offense (averaging 21 points).  Chris Paul is a mighty distributor, but he's also his team's 1st or 2nd option on offense.  Kyrie Irving is the hottest young star in the league (dropping 24 a night).    If you cant go out and get one of those dynamic scoring point guards, it seems a solid defensive point guard would be nice to have in your arsenal.  I like Bradley as our starting PG.  Sure, we probably aren't winning a title unless he's our 5th best starter, but I'm comfortable focusing on the other positions.  Trade Rondo when the package is right.

Side note:  I'm sure Ainge realizes this.  Part of the reason he's been trying to trade Rondo every single year.

You're right that over the past 23 years, a vast majority of championship teams haven't been led by great point guards--the only exceptions being the Spurs with Tony Parker, Isiah's Piston's back in 1990, and Billups (sort of) for the 2004 Pistons. 

I think you have hit on something with point #2, though; with the league being so point guard dominant right now, that seems bound to change some time in the near future.  Luckily, we already have an elite point guard. 
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 07:41:41 AM by Celtics18 »

Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2013, 12:45:42 AM »

Offline action781

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I agree with all of your points LarBrd33.  It's not that I don't like Rondo -- I do -- but I just agree that we have a very good player in Bradley who is very worthy of NBA minutes right now and his best skill is defense, but can't do such as well as he can if he's guarding SGs instead of PGs.  So why not trade away the PG who can get us more back at other positions, which is Rondo, when Rondo's best skill has proved to not be necessary for a championship team.
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Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2013, 12:52:05 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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Bradley is fine as a starting PG if you've got a wing player e.g. Iguodala, LeBron, Wade etc to set up others.  Right now Pierce has been playing that role, and Lee and Terry also pick up some of the ball-handling duties.

Bradley is a shooting guard who defends opposing point guards.

So ideally you need a point guard who is big enough to defend opposing shooting guards.
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Re: I like Bradley as a starting PG moving forward
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2013, 12:53:17 AM »

Offline action781

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Bradley is fine as a starting PG if you've got a wing player e.g. Iguodala, LeBron, Wade etc to set up others.  Right now Pierce has been playing that role, and Lee and Terry also pick up some of the ball-handling duties.

Bradley is a shooting guard who defends opposing point guards.

So ideally you need a point guard who is big enough to defend opposing shooting guards.

Or a shooting guard who is big enough to defend opposing shooting guards.

And a player at some position that you can run an offense through.
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