Author Topic: Former NBA GM Says to replace Jordan with Odom's expiring in a KG deal  (Read 3030 times)

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Re: Former NBA GM Says to replace Joran with Odom's expiring in a KG deal
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2013, 02:07:05 PM »

Offline ssspence

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A Clippers pick is worth next to nothing, given that it's unlikely to be better than the mid 20s.


Simply untrue, particularly considering the new CBA.
Care to explain?

Sure.

The part about late 1st being worthless is a poor generalization. Sully was taken past the lottery. Rondo was taken past the lottery. Bledsoe was taken past the lottery. Jordan was taken in the 2nd round. Perk and Barbosa were taken back-to-back at 27 and 28. All picks are valuable to teams, particularly ones rebuilding. Ainge has commented this year that it's become more difficult to get picks in trade or sale. IMO, this in part due to situations like Rondo from Phoenix where the selling team looks utterly stupid for doing so, but also based on the value of low salaried players vis-a-vis the CBA.

My comment about the new CBA stems from less financial flexibility. Rookie contracts allow teams to fill the back end of their roster with solid role players -- in many cases experienced 4-year college or international guys, either when they're ready or beforehand to stash for a couple of years. San Antonio in particular has mastered this, though other very good organizations like the Celtics have done pretty well late in the 1st (save Giddens). Basically, it's hard to find any quality player for around $1mil a year, and every team needs them.

If late 1st were worth next to nothing, a valuable guy like Redick would have been traded weeks ago. We'll see whether the Magic can pry one away for him before the deadline. 


Re: Former NBA GM Says to replace Jordan with Odom's expiring in a KG deal
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2013, 02:14:46 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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Taking on Odom's expiring makes no sense. With KG gone and everyone else here we still have 10 players, 1 draft slot, and 1 minimum slot plus a bunch of cap holds that put us over the cap.

So what good is an expiring contract?

It makes perfect sense.  Trading KG signals an intent to not put a contender on the floor next season.  So the idea would be to only trade for players who would be under contract beyond next season if they are being paid according to the rookie scale.  And if you are not going to contend, then why not save on payroll so you are more willing to dip into the luxury tax if necessary in a future season?
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Re: Former NBA GM Says to replace Joran with Odom's expiring in a KG deal
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2013, 02:19:11 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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A Clippers pick is worth next to nothing, given that it's unlikely to be better than the mid 20s.


Simply untrue, particularly considering the new CBA.
Care to explain?

Sure.

The part about late 1st being worthless is a poor generalization. Sully was taken past the lottery. Rondo was taken past the lottery. Bledsoe was taken past the lottery. Jordan was taken in the 2nd round. All picks are valuable to teams, particularly ones rebuilding. Ainge has commented this year that it's become more difficult to get picks in trade or sale. IMO, this in part due to situations like Rondo from Phoenix where the selling team looks utterly stupid for doing so, but also based on the value of low salaried players vis-a-vis the CBA.

My comment about the new CBA stems from less financial flexibility. Rookie contracts allow teams to fill the back end of their roster with solid role players -- in many cases experienced 4-year college or international guys, either when they're ready or beforehand to stash for a couple of years. San Antonio in particular has mastered this, though other very good organizations like the Celtics have done pretty well late in the 1st (save Giddens). Basically, it's hard to find any quality player for around $1mil a year, and every team needs them.

If late 1st were worth next to nothing, a valuable guy like Redick would have been traded weeks ago. We'll see whether the Magic can pry one away for him before the deadline.
I didn't say it's "worthless". I said it's "worth next to nothing". I'm a little baffled by your argument, since it's logical continuation is to say that we should trade out of the draft every season because guys like Gilbert Arenas and Ben Wallace went undrafted.

You surely _can_ get a good player in the end of the first or even the second round -- that's the nature of the draft. But the chance you'd get anything more than a solid role player is low, not to mention you're almost guaranteed not to have a shot at what's perceived as top talent in the draft. And there's also the issue about when they'll be ready to contribute, even if they have considerable college pedigree.

I understand the ability of a team to lock serviceable players into long and cheap contract, but are you really saying that the ability to have the next Courtney Lee for $2m instead of $5m a year is that important? Sure, it's nice to have, but...

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Re: Former NBA GM Says to replace Joran with Odom's expiring in a KG deal
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2013, 02:35:27 PM »

Offline ssspence

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A Clippers pick is worth next to nothing, given that it's unlikely to be better than the mid 20s.


Simply untrue, particularly considering the new CBA.
Care to explain?

Sure.

The part about late 1st being worthless is a poor generalization. Sully was taken past the lottery. Rondo was taken past the lottery. Bledsoe was taken past the lottery. Jordan was taken in the 2nd round. All picks are valuable to teams, particularly ones rebuilding. Ainge has commented this year that it's become more difficult to get picks in trade or sale. IMO, this in part due to situations like Rondo from Phoenix where the selling team looks utterly stupid for doing so, but also based on the value of low salaried players vis-a-vis the CBA.

My comment about the new CBA stems from less financial flexibility. Rookie contracts allow teams to fill the back end of their roster with solid role players -- in many cases experienced 4-year college or international guys, either when they're ready or beforehand to stash for a couple of years. San Antonio in particular has mastered this, though other very good organizations like the Celtics have done pretty well late in the 1st (save Giddens). Basically, it's hard to find any quality player for around $1mil a year, and every team needs them.

If late 1st were worth next to nothing, a valuable guy like Redick would have been traded weeks ago. We'll see whether the Magic can pry one away for him before the deadline.
I didn't say it's "worthless". I said it's "worth next to nothing". I'm a little baffled by your argument, since it's logical continuation is to say that we should trade out of the draft every season because guys like Gilbert Arenas and Ben Wallace went undrafted.

You surely _can_ get a good player in the end of the first or even the second round -- that's the nature of the draft. But the chance you'd get anything more than a solid role player is low, not to mention you're almost guaranteed not to have a shot at what's perceived as top talent in the draft. And there's also the issue about when they'll be ready to contribute, even if they have considerable college pedigree.

I understand the ability of a team to lock serviceable players into long and cheap contract, but are you really saying that the ability to have the next Courtney Lee for $2m instead of $5m a year is that important? Sure, it's nice to have, but...

Arenas was drafted early in the 2nd round.

I don't buy an argument that's based around a team's lack of confidence in its ability to draft. Surely the Cs believe they can find talent in the draft, or instead of drafting Bradley or Sullinger or Perk they'd just sell or trade their picks every year.

And yes, finding a Courtney Lee for $1mil per instead of $5mil per is very valuable to teams. Just ask the Spurs -- outside of Tim Duncan and Kahwi Leonard (taken 15th), their rotation is built exclusively on players taken in the late first and second rounds. And they have the best record in the NBA.

 

Re: Former NBA GM Says to replace Jordan with Odom's expiring in a KG deal
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2013, 03:17:53 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Taking on Odom's expiring makes no sense. With KG gone and everyone else here we still have 10 players, 1 draft slot, and 1 minimum slot plus a bunch of cap holds that put us over the cap.

So what good is an expiring contract?

It makes perfect sense.  Trading KG signals an intent to not put a contender on the floor next season.  So the idea would be to only trade for players who would be under contract beyond next season if they are being paid according to the rookie scale.  And if you are not going to contend, then why not save on payroll so you are more willing to dip into the luxury tax if necessary in a future season?
They are not in the luxury tax. And just dumping KG's salary doesn't do anything to help you rebuild it just lessens your payroll.

It makes zero sense to trade KG for an expiring. Danny will try to use the salary he has to rebuild on the fly keeping the team just under the luxury line. He won't scale everything down to get cap room.

Re: Former NBA GM Says to replace Jordan with Odom's expiring in a KG deal
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2013, 03:31:04 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Taking on Odom's expiring makes no sense. With KG gone and everyone else here we still have 10 players, 1 draft slot, and 1 minimum slot plus a bunch of cap holds that put us over the cap.

So what good is an expiring contract?

It makes perfect sense.  Trading KG signals an intent to not put a contender on the floor next season.  So the idea would be to only trade for players who would be under contract beyond next season if they are being paid according to the rookie scale.  And if you are not going to contend, then why not save on payroll so you are more willing to dip into the luxury tax if necessary in a future season?
They are not in the luxury tax. And just dumping KG's salary doesn't do anything to help you rebuild it just lessens your payroll.

It makes zero sense to trade KG for an expiring. Danny will try to use the salary he has to rebuild on the fly keeping the team just under the luxury line. He won't scale everything down to get cap room.

The Celtics are currently in the luxury tax.  It is a small amount for the Celtics this year, but the issue is in future years.  Beginning in 2014, there is a repeater rate, which is applied if you paid the luxury tax in the previous 3 seasons.  In 2015, it is if you paid the tax in 3 of the previous 4 seasons.  That tax is 2.5 to 1 for every dollar you're over, and the rate increases every $5 million you're over.  While this year the tax is no obstacle, in future years it may be, so dropping below the tax line this year could save the team millions in tax dollars in the future, and that obviously would have real value.  In the new CBA, a well-run team should only pay the luxury tax when they're winning, and not go very far into it unless they're a legit championship contender, unless they're the Lakers, who have a huge media deal (and even then, paying a $60 million tax bill, as they might do next season, should be avoid when possible.)

Re: Former NBA GM Says to replace Jordan with Odom's expiring in a KG deal
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2013, 03:38:00 PM »

Offline Brendan

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Would this work?

http://espn.go.com/nba/trademachine?tradeId=av8m6ew
link doesn't work


That is bizarre.  I even still have the saved trade up with that link listed. 

It has KG and Collins to LA

Jordan to Atlanta (allows Hortford to be the PF)

Bledsoe and Smith to Boston.
The trade checker direct links havent been working for me today either.

I'd do that trade, and follow it up with the Rondo for Dwight trade.

Re: Former NBA GM Says to replace Jordan with Odom's expiring in a KG deal
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2013, 08:53:17 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Taking on Odom's expiring makes no sense. With KG gone and everyone else here we still have 10 players, 1 draft slot, and 1 minimum slot plus a bunch of cap holds that put us over the cap.

So what good is an expiring contract?

It makes perfect sense.  Trading KG signals an intent to not put a contender on the floor next season.  So the idea would be to only trade for players who would be under contract beyond next season if they are being paid according to the rookie scale.  And if you are not going to contend, then why not save on payroll so you are more willing to dip into the luxury tax if necessary in a future season?
They are not in the luxury tax. And just dumping KG's salary doesn't do anything to help you rebuild it just lessens your payroll.

It makes zero sense to trade KG for an expiring. Danny will try to use the salary he has to rebuild on the fly keeping the team just under the luxury line. He won't scale everything down to get cap room.

The Celtics are currently in the luxury tax.  It is a small amount for the Celtics this year, but the issue is in future years.  Beginning in 2014, there is a repeater rate, which is applied if you paid the luxury tax in the previous 3 seasons.  In 2015, it is if you paid the tax in 3 of the previous 4 seasons.  That tax is 2.5 to 1 for every dollar you're over, and the rate increases every $5 million you're over.  While this year the tax is no obstacle, in future years it may be, so dropping below the tax line this year could save the team millions in tax dollars in the future, and that obviously would have real value.  In the new CBA, a well-run team should only pay the luxury tax when they're winning, and not go very far into it unless they're a legit championship contender, unless they're the Lakers, who have a huge media deal (and even then, paying a $60 million tax bill, as they might do next season, should be avoid when possible.)
Thanks for the lesson I didn't need.

Here's one for you. When is the date that salaries are determined so that team's over the luxury tax have to pay their tax?

Answer: The last day of the regular season. The Celtics season isn't over and they can definitely get under the luxury tax with a trade.

So, they are not in the luxury tax and therefore, trading KG only to dump salary doesn't make sense. The team can make a trade to dump salary without getting rid of probably its most important asset.

Re: Former NBA GM Says to replace Jordan with Odom's expiring in a KG deal
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2013, 10:27:39 PM »

Offline CelticConcourse

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Adrian Wojnarowski of Yahoo Sports reports that the Clippers and Celtics have terminated trade talkins involving Kevin Garnett for now.
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Re: Former NBA GM Says to replace Jordan with Odom's expiring in a KG deal
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2013, 10:35:46 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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Here's one for you. When is the date that salaries are determined so that team's over the luxury tax have to pay their tax?

Answer: The last day of the regular season. The Celtics season isn't over and they can definitely get under the luxury tax with a trade.

Are you suggesting they can make a trade after the trade deadline?
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Re: Former NBA GM Says to replace Jordan with Odom's expiring in a KG deal
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2013, 11:06:42 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Here's one for you. When is the date that salaries are determined so that team's over the luxury tax have to pay their tax?

Answer: The last day of the regular season. The Celtics season isn't over and they can definitely get under the luxury tax with a trade.

Are you suggesting they can make a trade after the trade deadline?
Are you suggesting the trade deadline has passed?

Re: Former NBA GM Says to replace Jordan with Odom's expiring in a KG deal
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2013, 09:50:16 AM »

Offline vjcsmoke

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Would this work?

http://espn.go.com/nba/trademachine?tradeId=av8m6ew
link doesn't work


That is bizarre.  I even still have the saved trade up with that link listed. 

It has KG and Collins to LA

Jordan to Atlanta (allows Hortford to be the PF)

Bledsoe and Smith to Boston.
The trade checker direct links havent been working for me today either.

I'd do that trade, and follow it up with the Rondo for Dwight trade.

So you would send Rondo for Dwight Howard?  Would he even fit under the cap?  Assuming those two trades went down this would be the new Celtics roster:

1 Eric Bledsoe
2 Courtney Lee
3 Paul Pierce
4 Josh Smith
5 Dwight Howard

I guess I can live with that.   :)
We're getting two knuckleheads in Smith and Howard but paired together that would make possibly the strongest and most athletic defensive 4/5 in the NBA.

Re: Former NBA GM Says to replace Jordan with Odom's expiring in a KG deal
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2013, 09:57:13 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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So you would send Rondo for Dwight Howard?  Would he even fit under the cap?  Assuming those two trades went down this would be the new Celtics roster:

1 Eric Bledsoe
2 Courtney Lee
3 Paul Pierce
4 Josh Smith
5 Dwight Howard

I guess I can live with that.   :)
We're getting two knuckleheads in Smith and Howard but paired together that would make possibly the strongest and most athletic defensive 4/5 in the NBA.
This is less horrible than some of the others blow-it-up suggestions (mostly because keeping Pierce means having an important go-to guy).
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