Author Topic: We absolutely should trade KG and Pierce!!!!!  (Read 5233 times)

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Re: We absolutely should trade KG and Pierce!!!!!
« Reply #75 on: February 17, 2013, 06:04:20 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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Indeed they won't.

They don't have the bizarre fascination some board posters have with putting together a team of scrubs, and then posting incessantly trying to convince each other that said scrubs can actually play.

See 2006 and 2007 on this very blog.

Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the scrubs from 2007 enable the trades that led to 2008 - present?
People who believe we traded value for Garnett and Allen are living in a deep world of denial.

Danny was there when two HOFers were being shopped for pennies on the dollar.

Our pennies landed the day.

Re: We absolutely should trade KG and Pierce!!!!!
« Reply #76 on: February 17, 2013, 06:20:00 PM »

Offline CelticConcourse

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Indeed they won't.

They don't have the bizarre fascination some board posters have with putting together a team of scrubs, and then posting incessantly trying to convince each other that said scrubs can actually play.

See 2006 and 2007 on this very blog.

Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the scrubs from 2007 enable the trades that led to 2008 - present?
People who believe we traded value for Garnett and Allen are living in a deep world of denial.

Danny was there when two HOFers were being shopped for pennies on the dollar.

Our pennies landed the day.

This is now... what if it hadn't all worked out? Mmmm?
Jeff Green - Top 5 SF

[Kevin Garnett]
"I've always said J. Green is going to be one of the best players to ever play this game"

Re: We absolutely should trade KG and Pierce!!!!!th
« Reply #77 on: February 17, 2013, 06:22:16 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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never take my Captain away......


Re: We absolutely should trade KG and Pierce!!!!!
« Reply #78 on: February 17, 2013, 07:13:12 PM »

Offline Bombastic Jones

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Other people have already mentioned that losing Bias, then losing Reggie, plus poor management was part of the Celtics down years.  I agree with that.  Let's also not forget that we traded AInge in 89 - after he was an all star the year before - and got back Ed Pickney and Joe Klein.  93 to 02 was really tough, but I don't think Chuck Person, Herb Williams, Steve Stipanovich, Detlef Schrempf and Sam Perkins was the magic wand to banner 17 in the early '90s.  In other words, trading talent does not guarantee fast rebuilding.

Re: We absolutely should trade KG and Pierce!!!!!
« Reply #79 on: February 17, 2013, 07:54:43 PM »

Offline TripleOT

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People who believe we traded value for Garnett and Allen are living in a deep world of denial.

Danny was there when two HOFers were being shopped for pennies on the dollar.

Our pennies landed the day.

In NBA history older HOF type players have been traded for similar packages.  I'd  say it's more the rule than the exception.  Allen, who plays a position not kind to older players, was seen as in decline, coming off an ankle operation.  Seattle got what were considered two solid rotation guys and a top 5 pick.

In the KG deal, Minny got one of the best young post players in the league.  The rest of the package, in hindsight, was garbage, but at the time, Green, Telfair and Gomes were considered NBA rotation players.  They got a 6th pick, and foolishly chose Jonny Flynn instead of Steph Curry.  Ellington at 28 was a decent pick. If Minny took Curry, as they should have, and stuck with Big Al and Ellington, their haul for KG would look better.  They got Kosta Koufos and two first for Al. 

Looking at past trades of declining HOFers, teams either get back the classic "two dimes for a quarter" (Barkley for Hornacek and Perry), or a combination of lesser players and first round draft picks. It's what you do with those players and draft picks that will determine if the trade was worth it. 

If Minny took Curry instead of Flynn, kept Koufos instead of trading him for Anthony Randolph and Eddy Curry, and did more with the draft picks they got for Big Al  (they could have had Chandler Parsons, Jared Sullinger and Nicola Mirotic, who could be a Dirk like player, amd will be in the NBA in the summer of 2014), they'd look differently at the KG trade.  Curry, Parsons, Sullinger and Mirotic for KG would look pretty good in a few years, added to the players they got with the high picks they "earned" when  losing post-KG. 

With the KG trade to the Clips, (a two dimes for a quarter trade) Boston already know what they're getting - two young guys with great potential.  DJ is already a solid player at a position difficult to fill, and Bledsoe looks to be a breakout performer. That's a good haul for an aging HOFer with only a few seasons left in the tank.           

Re: We absolutely should trade KG and Pierce!!!!!
« Reply #80 on: February 17, 2013, 07:59:42 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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They got a 6th pick, and foolishly chose Jonny Flynn instead of Steph Curry.  Ellington at 28 was a decent pick. If Minny took Curry, as they should have, and stuck with Big Al and Ellington, their haul for KG would look better.     

The Twolves actually didn't get that pick from us.  The pick we traded back to them was lottery protected, and couldn't come to us until two years after the Twolves conveyed their 1st rounder to the Clips.

Long story short, that first rounder eventually became a second rounder.


D. Cousins / I. Mahinmi / P. Antic
D. West / R. Anderson / C. Copeland
L. Deng / K. Singler / D. Rudez
A. Iguodala / V. Carter / B. Gordon / C.J. Wilcox
K. Irving / S. Livingston / S. Blake

Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat.  CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012

Re: We absolutely should trade KG and Pierce!!!!!
« Reply #81 on: February 17, 2013, 08:03:34 PM »

Offline TripleOT

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They got a 6th pick, and foolishly chose Jonny Flynn instead of Steph Curry.  Ellington at 28 was a decent pick. If Minny took Curry, as they should have, and stuck with Big Al and Ellington, their haul for KG would look better.     

The Twolves actually didn't get that pick from us.  The pick we traded back to them was lottery protected, and couldn't come to us until two years after the Twolves conveyed their 1st rounder to the Clips.

Long story short, that first rounder eventually became a second rounder.

If that's the case, http://www.prosportstransactions.com is wrong.  From that site, here's what they have Minny getting for KG:

Quote
Al Jefferson, Gerald Green, Theo Ratliff, Ryan Gomes, Sebastian Telfair, 2009 protected first round pick (top 3 in 2009, top 2 in 2010, top 2 in 2011, unprotected in 2012) (#6-Jonny Flynn / Johnny Flynn), conditional first round pick (2009 #28-Wayne Ellington), cash

Re: We absolutely should trade KG and Pierce!!!!!
« Reply #82 on: February 17, 2013, 08:05:32 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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They got a 6th pick, and foolishly chose Jonny Flynn instead of Steph Curry.  Ellington at 28 was a decent pick. If Minny took Curry, as they should have, and stuck with Big Al and Ellington, their haul for KG would look better.     

The Twolves actually didn't get that pick from us.  The pick we traded back to them was lottery protected, and couldn't come to us until two years after the Twolves conveyed their 1st rounder to the Clips.

Long story short, that first rounder eventually became a second rounder.

If that's the case, http://www.prosportstransactions.com is wrong.  From that site, here's what they have Minny getting for KG:

Quote
Al Jefferson, Gerald Green, Theo Ratliff, Ryan Gomes, Sebastian Telfair, 2009 protected first round pick (top 3 in 2009, top 2 in 2010, top 2 in 2011, unprotected in 2012) (#6-Jonny Flynn / Johnny Flynn), conditional first round pick (2009 #28-Wayne Ellington), cash

Yes, they're wrong.


D. Cousins / I. Mahinmi / P. Antic
D. West / R. Anderson / C. Copeland
L. Deng / K. Singler / D. Rudez
A. Iguodala / V. Carter / B. Gordon / C.J. Wilcox
K. Irving / S. Livingston / S. Blake

Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat.  CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012

Re: We absolutely should trade KG and Pierce!!!!!
« Reply #83 on: February 17, 2013, 08:10:34 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Quote
Aside from our own picks, the Celtics are likely entitled to receive a future first-round pick from the Minnesota Timberwolves. Due to a league rule prohibiting teams from ever placing themselves in a situation where two consecutive future first-round picks have been traded away, the Celtics cannot receive the first round pick the Timberwolves owe from the Ricky Davis/Wally Szczerbiak trade until two years after the Timberwolves send a pick to the Clippers (from the Sam Cassell/Marko Jaric trade). However, because the Clippers trade involved top 10 "protection," Minnesota only has to send the pick to the Clippers if the pick falls outside the top 10 picks in the draft. Therefore, in future years, Celtics fans should be rooting for Minnesota to win (when, of course, they're not playing against the Celtics) until the Timberwolves finish a season out of the bottom ten, and send their pick to the Clippers. Two years after this occurs, the Timberwolves will send their first-round pick to the Celtics, subject to some "protection" which decreases annually after the first year in which we could receive the pick.*

        The situation is further complicated by a league rule that prevents any deals being made involving drafts more than 7 drafts into the future; as a result the Celtics cannot receive Minnesota's pick after the 2012 draft, since the Ricky/Wally trade was made before the 2006 draft. Therefore, if the Timberwolves do not send a pick to the Clippers by the end of the 2010 draft, the Celtics will be unable to receive the Timberwolves' first-round pick in 2012, and will instead receive a second-round pick in 2012.

    * For those die-hard draft fans who want all the details, here's how the protection on this pick works: If the Timberwolves send a pick to the Clippers in 2007, we receive the Timberwolves' pick in 2009 if it falls outside of the top 14, in 2010 if it falls outside of the top 5, in 2011 if it falls outside of the top 3, or in 2012 unconditionally. If the Timberwolves send a pick to the Clippers in 2008, we receive the Timberwolves' pick in 2010 if it falls outside of the top 14, in 2011 if it falls outside of the top 5, or in 2012 unconditionally. If the Timberwolves send a pick to the Clippers in 2009, we receive the Timberwolves' pick in 2011 if it falls outside the top 14, or in 2012 unconditionally. Finally, if the Timberwolves send a pick to the Clippers in 2010, we receive the Timberwolves' pick in 2012 unconditionally.


http://www.nba.com/celtics/stats/inside-the-numbers/numbers042006.html

The Clippers didn't get the Twolves' pick until 2012 (which was traded to New Orleans in the CP3 deal, and became Austin Rivers).

Read the bolded part above:  we would have ended up with a second rounder in 2012.  That's the pick we traded back to Minnesota.  The Celtics never, ever had the right to a lottery pick.


D. Cousins / I. Mahinmi / P. Antic
D. West / R. Anderson / C. Copeland
L. Deng / K. Singler / D. Rudez
A. Iguodala / V. Carter / B. Gordon / C.J. Wilcox
K. Irving / S. Livingston / S. Blake

Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat.  CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012

Re: We absolutely should trade KG and Pierce!!!!!
« Reply #84 on: February 17, 2013, 08:17:31 PM »

Online BballTim

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Indeed they won't.

They don't have the bizarre fascination some board posters have with putting together a team of scrubs, and then posting incessantly trying to convince each other that said scrubs can actually play.

See 2006 and 2007 on this very blog.

Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the scrubs from 2007 enable the trades that led to 2008 - present?
People who believe we traded value for Garnett and Allen are living in a deep world of denial.

Danny was there when two HOFers were being shopped for pennies on the dollar.

Our pennies landed the day.

  More likely people who understand the money aspects of the trades and what it's worth to teams to get out from under contracts than people in denial. Consider that we paid a #6 pick to flip Raef's contract for Theo's shorter contract, figure out how much more money Seattle saved on the Ray deal than we did on the Raef deal and see that they got a top 5 draft pick on top of that. It's not the bad deal you think it is because you're missing much of what Seattle gained in the deal.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 09:23:30 PM by BballTim »

Re: We absolutely should trade KG and Pierce!!!!!
« Reply #85 on: February 17, 2013, 11:57:57 PM »

Offline EvilEmpire

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They got a 6th pick, and foolishly chose Jonny Flynn instead of Steph Curry.  Ellington at 28 was a decent pick. If Minny took Curry, as they should have, and stuck with Big Al and Ellington, their haul for KG would look better.     

The Twolves actually didn't get that pick from us.  The pick we traded back to them was lottery protected, and couldn't come to us until two years after the Twolves conveyed their 1st rounder to the Clips.

Long story short, that first rounder eventually became a second rounder.

If that's the case, http://www.prosportstransactions.com is wrong.  From that site, here's what they have Minny getting for KG:

Quote
Al Jefferson, Gerald Green, Theo Ratliff, Ryan Gomes, Sebastian Telfair, 2009 protected first round pick (top 3 in 2009, top 2 in 2010, top 2 in 2011, unprotected in 2012) (#6-Jonny Flynn / Johnny Flynn), conditional first round pick (2009 #28-Wayne Ellington), cash

Yes, they're wrong.

Seems a lot of sources have it wrong. The pick the Celtics sent to the T-Wolves was actually the 28th pick in the 2009 draft, which was used on Wayne Ellington. The 5th pick in the draft Minnesota got from Washington and the 6th pick was their own.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_nba_draft#endnote_Note2b

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_nba_draft

Re: We absolutely should trade KG and Pierce!!!!!th
« Reply #86 on: February 18, 2013, 12:32:36 AM »

Offline OsirusCeltics

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never take my Captain away......

Cosign!

Re: We absolutely should trade KG and Pierce!!!!!
« Reply #87 on: February 18, 2013, 01:15:10 AM »

Offline TripleOT

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They got a 6th pick, and foolishly chose Jonny Flynn instead of Steph Curry.  Ellington at 28 was a decent pick. If Minny took Curry, as they should have, and stuck with Big Al and Ellington, their haul for KG would look better.     

The Twolves actually didn't get that pick from us.  The pick we traded back to them was lottery protected, and couldn't come to us until two years after the Twolves conveyed their 1st rounder to the Clips.

Long story short, that first rounder eventually became a second rounder.

If that's the case, http://www.prosportstransactions.com is wrong.  From that site, here's what they have Minny getting for KG:

Quote
Al Jefferson, Gerald Green, Theo Ratliff, Ryan Gomes, Sebastian Telfair, 2009 protected first round pick (top 3 in 2009, top 2 in 2010, top 2 in 2011, unprotected in 2012) (#6-Jonny Flynn / Johnny Flynn), conditional first round pick (2009 #28-Wayne Ellington), cash

Yes, they're wrong.

Seems a lot of sources have it wrong. The pick the Celtics sent to the T-Wolves was actually the 28th pick in the 2009 draft, which was used on Wayne Ellington. The 5th pick in the draft Minnesota got from Washington and the 6th pick was their own.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_nba_draft#endnote_Note2b

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_nba_draft

IIRC, part of the KG deal was that the Cs wouldn't take the pick at the Wolves owed them in the Wally trade.  That pick was the #6 pick that was used for Flynn. 

Re: We absolutely should trade KG and Pierce!!!!!
« Reply #88 on: February 18, 2013, 03:10:57 AM »

Offline PaulPierce34G

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All I will say is...

Pierce stuck with us throughout whole 9 yards....

KG put us back on the map...

Danny, don't trade them.

I know it is a business...but sometimes sentimentality has to outweigh the business....this is the case.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong...

Re: We absolutely should trade KG and Pierce!!!!!
« Reply #89 on: February 18, 2013, 03:20:34 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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They got a 6th pick, and foolishly chose Jonny Flynn instead of Steph Curry.  Ellington at 28 was a decent pick. If Minny took Curry, as they should have, and stuck with Big Al and Ellington, their haul for KG would look better.     

The Twolves actually didn't get that pick from us.  The pick we traded back to them was lottery protected, and couldn't come to us until two years after the Twolves conveyed their 1st rounder to the Clips.

Long story short, that first rounder eventually became a second rounder.

If that's the case, http://www.prosportstransactions.com is wrong.  From that site, here's what they have Minny getting for KG:

Quote
Al Jefferson, Gerald Green, Theo Ratliff, Ryan Gomes, Sebastian Telfair, 2009 protected first round pick (top 3 in 2009, top 2 in 2010, top 2 in 2011, unprotected in 2012) (#6-Jonny Flynn / Johnny Flynn), conditional first round pick (2009 #28-Wayne Ellington), cash

Yes, they're wrong.

Seems a lot of sources have it wrong. The pick the Celtics sent to the T-Wolves was actually the 28th pick in the 2009 draft, which was used on Wayne Ellington. The 5th pick in the draft Minnesota got from Washington and the 6th pick was their own.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_nba_draft#endnote_Note2b

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_nba_draft

IIRC, part of the KG deal was that the Cs wouldn't take the pick at the Wolves owed them in the Wally trade.  That pick was the #6 pick that was used for Flynn.

It's all wrong, from a semantics point. The Celtics traded the rights to a protected 1st, Minny's own. That protection would've prohibited us from receiving it for the Flynn pick, but because it was traded, the first available pick made protections or no was assigned to it, because there was no further obligation (due to us trading it back to Minny).

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