Author Topic: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?  (Read 13632 times)

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Offline BballTim

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PER rates Josh Smith higher.  WS rates Jeff Green higher (and, in fact, gives Josh Smith negative win shares).

Only gives him negative win shares offensively. Anyway you cut it, it was an off-year for Smith in general.

Quote
Who you like better as a player is probably related to which stat, PER or win shares, you like better.

Wrong, I like WS better, but I like Smith between the two players. Offensively he's had a bit of a rough year, especially with his FT shooting and 3pt shooting (as in he should take less 3's), but defensively he remained solid. It leads me to believe this is a role issue, not a performance issue.

   In terms of scoring efficiency last year was rougher than this year. I think the issue is his shot selection, and I'd say that's at least as much on him as his being asked to do things he shouldn't.

Offline nickagneta

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PER rates Josh Smith higher.  WS rates Jeff Green higher (and, in fact, gives Josh Smith negative win shares).

Only gives him negative win shares offensively. Anyway you cut it, it was an off-year for Smith in general.

Quote
Who you like better as a player is probably related to which stat, PER or win shares, you like better.

Wrong, I like WS better, but I like Smith between the two players. Offensively he's had a bit of a rough year, especially with his FT shooting and 3pt shooting (as in he should take less 3's), but defensively he remained solid. It leads me to believe this is a role issue, not a performance issue.

   In terms of scoring efficiency last year was rougher than this year. I think the issue is his shot selection, and I'd say that's at least as much on him as his being asked to do things he shouldn't.
I think its all role. He misses Joe Johnson, or anyone else(Crawford, Bibby), being THAT guy on offense. He just isn't a capable number one scoring option and neither is Horford. Put Smith in a different role and his offense will bounce back or maybe even get better.

Offline SparzWizard

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Can both be in Celtic green next year?  ;D


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Offline BballTim

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PER rates Josh Smith higher.  WS rates Jeff Green higher (and, in fact, gives Josh Smith negative win shares).

Only gives him negative win shares offensively. Anyway you cut it, it was an off-year for Smith in general.

Quote
Who you like better as a player is probably related to which stat, PER or win shares, you like better.

Wrong, I like WS better, but I like Smith between the two players. Offensively he's had a bit of a rough year, especially with his FT shooting and 3pt shooting (as in he should take less 3's), but defensively he remained solid. It leads me to believe this is a role issue, not a performance issue.

   In terms of scoring efficiency last year was rougher than this year. I think the issue is his shot selection, and I'd say that's at least as much on him as his being asked to do things he shouldn't.
I think its all role. He misses Joe Johnson, or anyone else(Crawford, Bibby), being THAT guy on offense. He just isn't a capable number one scoring option and neither is Horford. Put Smith in a different role and his offense will bounce back or maybe even get better.

  Johnson was there last year, Smith was taking more shots than Joe. I don't think he wants that lesser role.

Offline nickagneta

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PER rates Josh Smith higher.  WS rates Jeff Green higher (and, in fact, gives Josh Smith negative win shares).

Only gives him negative win shares offensively. Anyway you cut it, it was an off-year for Smith in general.

Quote
Who you like better as a player is probably related to which stat, PER or win shares, you like better.

Wrong, I like WS better, but I like Smith between the two players. Offensively he's had a bit of a rough year, especially with his FT shooting and 3pt shooting (as in he should take less 3's), but defensively he remained solid. It leads me to believe this is a role issue, not a performance issue.

   In terms of scoring efficiency last year was rougher than this year. I think the issue is his shot selection, and I'd say that's at least as much on him as his being asked to do things he shouldn't.
I think its all role. He misses Joe Johnson, or anyone else(Crawford, Bibby), being THAT guy on offense. He just isn't a capable number one scoring option and neither is Horford. Put Smith in a different role and his offense will bounce back or maybe even get better.

  Johnson was there last year, Smith was taking more shots than Joe. I don't think he wants that lesser role.
Also a very large problem and another reason I wouldn't trade Jeff Green for him and why I would never want him wearing the Green.

Is it fair to call him "dumb" in a basketball sense? I know its a word a used a lot when I watched Antoine Walker and a word I used a lot when watching Smith in a bunch of Hawk playoff games. I also happen to find a lot of other similarities in their games and personality on the court sometimes.

Offline LooseCannon

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If the Celtics acquire Josh Smith, can we look forward to Doc Rivers playing him as the center in a smallball lineup?  If you find that idea abhorrent, do you count that as a reason against trying to acquire Smith?

Atlanta used Josh Smith as the center position quite a bit last season while Al Horford was out and a small bit this season too. It's not an ideal option but it is workable.

I expect Doc would be willing to use Smith there at times if the Celtics had a lack of quality alternatives at the five spot. I don't think Doc would do so otherwise.

Would it bother you if Doc went with Smith as center in the smallball unit if he had a Darko-level alternative that he refused to even experiment with?
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Offline LooseCannon

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Is it fair to call him "dumb" in a basketball sense? I know its a word a used a lot when I watched Antoine Walker and a word I used a lot when watching Smith in a bunch of Hawk playoff games. I also happen to find a lot of other similarities in their games and personality on the court sometimes.

I'd say Smith and Walker both seem like intelligent players who lack...let's call it wisdom.  Maybe also common sense.
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If the Celtics acquire Josh Smith, can we look forward to Doc Rivers playing him as the center in a smallball lineup?  If you find that idea abhorrent, do you count that as a reason against trying to acquire Smith?

Atlanta used Josh Smith as the center position quite a bit last season while Al Horford was out and a small bit this season too. It's not an ideal option but it is workable.

I expect Doc would be willing to use Smith there at times if the Celtics had a lack of quality alternatives at the five spot. I don't think Doc would do so otherwise.

Would it bother you if Doc went with Smith as center in the smallball unit if he had a Darko-level alternative that he refused to even experiment with?

Depends on the situation. On the other players in Boston's own lineups and their opponents lineup. In deciding which option I would prefer - Josh Smith at center or at forward alongside a Darko-like player.

I guess Doc refusing to experiment with means regardless of situation so yes that bother me but I am not concerned about Doc doing that.

Offline Sketch5

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It depends on really who else is on the team. Neither one is THE guy, but an other piece.

I think Green would be closer to be THE guy then Smith. Smith is better at defending and rebounding, but Greens offensive game if get can get consistent(still thing he's still recovering mentally) is better, not stat wise, but what he can do.

He can post well, hes a better ball handler. Smith is a good passer, maybe a little better than Green. Green is a better shooter at any spot on the floor.

Plus, how many clutch shots has Green made this season in the fourth. Not just game winners, but shots that keeps them in, or gets them the lead? And some of those are 3  point shots. Thats some thing Smith can't do very well.

So if you can put some one on the floor that can defend the paint and rebound with Green, I say trading him for Smith would be a bad move because you lose your diversity on the offensive end, and the ability to spread the floor.

I think I'd need to know who would be the SF, (and can't say PP since he's close to retiring) that you would have play with Smith.

Offline nickagneta

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Is it fair to call him "dumb" in a basketball sense? I know its a word a used a lot when I watched Antoine Walker and a word I used a lot when watching Smith in a bunch of Hawk playoff games. I also happen to find a lot of other similarities in their games and personality on the court sometimes.

I'd say Smith and Walker both seem like intelligent players who lack...let's call it wisdom.  Maybe also common sense.
I get this. I happen to think it was a lack of good coaching at an impressionable age(teens to early 20's). I think it causes a lot of problems like this in NBA players.

Unbelievable talent, fairly intelligent men, tremendous athleticism, just missing that.....something.....and wisdom makes sense. They weren't taught discipline and fundamentals at an impressionable enough age and then they became such experts in the game, they never learned any more.

Or their egos just got so massive that it never allowed them to see how flawed they are or were.

Or both.

Offline CelticConcourse

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Is it fair to call him "dumb" in a basketball sense? I know its a word a used a lot when I watched Antoine Walker and a word I used a lot when watching Smith in a bunch of Hawk playoff games. I also happen to find a lot of other similarities in their games and personality on the court sometimes.

I'd say Smith and Walker both seem like intelligent players who lack...let's call it wisdom.  Maybe also common sense.
I get this. I happen to think it was a lack of good coaching at an impressionable age(teens to early 20's). I think it causes a lot of problems like this in NBA players.

Unbelievable talent, fairly intelligent men, tremendous athleticism, just missing that.....something.....and wisdom makes sense. They weren't taught discipline and fundamentals at an impressionable enough age and then they became such experts in the game, they never learned any more.

Or their egos just got so massive that it never allowed them to see how flawed they are or were.

Or both.

They should learn to use their egos to their advantage, like Jordan Godford
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Offline Snakehead

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PER rates Josh Smith higher.  WS rates Jeff Green higher (and, in fact, gives Josh Smith negative win shares).

Only gives him negative win shares offensively. Anyway you cut it, it was an off-year for Smith in general.

Quote
Who you like better as a player is probably related to which stat, PER or win shares, you like better.

Wrong, I like WS better, but I like Smith between the two players. Offensively he's had a bit of a rough year, especially with his FT shooting and 3pt shooting (as in he should take less 3's), but defensively he remained solid. It leads me to believe this is a role issue, not a performance issue.

   In terms of scoring efficiency last year was rougher than this year. I think the issue is his shot selection, and I'd say that's at least as much on him as his being asked to do things he shouldn't.

I totally agree with this, it's part of the reason I'm not down on him.

If you think about the game against us, he was being asked to play a playmaker role against us at the end of the game.  That is all sorts of wrong.  Not that he can't make a nice pass or anything.

With us, in the pick and roll with Rondo, someone he trusts, that is a much better role for him where he is taking better shots.
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Offline Celtics18

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I've traditionally been fairly high on Josh Smith, but at this point I think I'd rather stick with Green.  I say this regardless of contract situation, purely looking at them as basketball players. 

As far as being an elite athlete (running, jumping, moving quickly), I think Jeff at least equals Smith in that category.

Smith seems a little more well rounded while Jeff seems smarter.  Smith is known for being an excellent defender, but I have really enjoyed Jeff's D of late.  I think that he will be known as a premier multi-position defender before too long.

Offensively, I think Green is a much better fit.  He's smoother, smarter with his shot selection, a better finisher, and a better jump shooter.

So, given the choice, I'll stick with Jeff Green at this point.
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Offline Fred Roberts

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I think in the 2013/14 NBA season, Jeff Green will at least be the equal of Josh Smith in terms of production, talent, etc. I think he will be more efficient and effective possibly.

He will be 60% of the price too. I like Jeff's game, and think he'll age better than Josh Smith in the next 4 years because he relies a bit less on athleticism and has a better shot.

Jeff Green 100% is my take.

Offline Moranis

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When looking at price I think you have to go with Green, but Smith is a better player than Green.  He is a better defender, much better rebounder, much better passer, and frankly they shoot about the same (Green a bit better from deep, Smith better from close - the line is a different situation though).  I think if Smith had a clear #1 scorer on his team, like a Pierce, he would be more efficient as well.

If price didn't matter you go with Smith, if price does matter and Smith gets near that max level, then you go with Green. 
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