Author Topic: Bass and green for josh smith? RUMORS.  (Read 5144 times)

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Re: Bass and green for josh smith? RUMORS.
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2013, 05:54:59 AM »

Offline steve

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one thing i have noticed about this forum is that people vastly over rate josh smith. I watch a ton of games on league pass and i dont understand what people are fawning over. Sometimes I think people just look at the stat sheets. I just dont get it.

Much like many Celtics fans do with Rondo - just look at the stat sheets?

Here are Smith's regular season averages (per 36 Min) for his career:

16.0 Pts
8.4 Reb
3.4 Ass
1.4 Stl
2.2 Blk
46% FG
29% 3PT
66% FT
2.6 TO

Looking at his stats this season, he is actually the only player in the NBA who is averaging at least:

* 17 PPG
* 8 RPG
* 4 APG
* 1 SPG
* 2 BPK

If you remove the blocks and steals, there are only two players in the league averaging at least 17 PPG, 8 RPG and 4 APG, and they are:

* Josh Smith
* Lebron James

Even if I bring the rebound average down by one point (17/7/4) and the list expands to also include:

* Kevin Durant
* Paul George

Bring the assist average dow by one (17/7/3) and the list increases to also include:

* David Lee
* Blake Griffin

You are still looking at some pretty impressive company there.

The only bad stat for Smith is turnovers (at 3 per game) but if you look at the turnover numbers for the othe guys on that list, they aren't much better:

* Lebron - 3.0
* Durant - 3.2
* George - 2.8
* Griffin - 2.7
* Lee - 2.4

It's very easy to see why Josh Smith is one of the better 'swiss army knife' type players in the league, and in the right system he certainly has the potential to be a 20/10/5 player...to achieve this he would need an extra 3 points, 1.5 rebounds and 1 assist per game so very achievable...and I believe only something like 9 players have done tht in NBA history (KG being one of them).

He might not be a superstar scorer, but there are is nobody in the league bar maybe Lebron, Durant and Rondo who can impact a game in so many ways on a nightly basis.

I would love to hear a rebuttle to this post? 

Hard to argue with numbers

Re: Bass and green for josh smith? RUMORS.
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2013, 06:11:28 AM »

Offline chambers

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I would rather give up Sully, Bass and Lee for Smith.
Money works, and the Hawks get two nice chips in Bass and Lee, and a great young stud in Sully. Throw in a pick or Melo if we must.

We need Green AND Smith to compete with Miami and OKC in my opinion.

Imagine the Heat trying to guard Pierce, Green and Smith...it would be a match up nightmare for every team-particularly with KG stretching the floor
Danny Ainge tried to get CP3 & David West to add to KG, Pierce and Ray Allen. Just Imagine if the stars had aligned...

Re: Bass and green for josh smith? RUMORS.
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2013, 06:29:51 AM »

Offline Birdman

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Yeah i think Atlanta would do a Sully, Bass, and Lee trade than a Green and Bass. I would to if I was the C's.

Re: Bass and green for josh smith? RUMORS.
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2013, 06:33:17 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I would rather give up Sully, Bass and Lee for Smith.
Money works, and the Hawks get two nice chips in Bass and Lee, and a great young stud in Sully. Throw in a pick or Melo if we must.

We need Green AND Smith to compete with Miami and OKC in my opinion.

Imagine the Heat trying to guard Pierce, Green and Smith...it would be a match up nightmare for every team-particularly with KG stretching the floor

Looking at that deal from Atlanta's perspective:

* Lee is nice defensively, but has been very inconsistent offensively.  He is currently on a long term contract and doesn't seem to have much potential beyond what you see now. 

* Bass is a pure jumpshooter who OCCASIONALLY rebounds decently and plays some decent defense - but rarely.  He has very bad hands and low basketball IQ, but he plays hard.  He is currently on a long term contract and doesn't seem to have much potential beyond what you see now.

* Sullinger is a talented young rookie who looks to have a lot of upside, but he was passed on in the draft (despite his obvious talents) due to concerns over his back. He's currently out for the season getting back surgery - his back issue is no longer a rumour and is now a proven concern, and there is no way for other teams to know whether he will recover from it well or not.

So you are asking Atlanta to give up a highly talented young stud (who is also highly valued by about 6-8 teams right now) in return for two borderline starters with little potential (and little trade value, and long term contracts), and a young guy with a bad back.

You really think they will take that?

There is no point at all in trading Sully.  He's never averaged more than 6/6 in the NBA (so his potential is possible, but not certain), he has a history of back issues, and he is out for the season.  Nobody is going to give up anything of value for a guy when they have no certainty if he will ever get healthy, and no certaintly on whether he will ever become a starting calibre player post-injury.  He is far more valuable to us because we already have him, so we aren't taking any risk by keeping him and evaluating him next season.

Bass has very little trade value (outside of simply to match salaries) unless it's for a team that desperately needs a PF with a good midrange game, or a solid backup PF with a good work ethic.  Teams that need such niche (and relatively minor) things are unlikely to give up anything of huge value in return.

DA reportedly tried trading Lee earlier in the season in return for Demarcus Cousins, and apparently was turned down because they wanted AB instead.  Lee is a support player who is athletic, plays good defense and can occasioanally score (probably not more than 10-13 points per 36 minutes).  He's the type of guy a lot of teams would like to add to their rosters, but he's still a role player...and nobody would give up more than a role player in return.

The only guys on our team who have any real trade value are:

1. Rondo - even injured, he could still net a good return
2. Pierce - a contender would offer a decent (not great)  return
3. KG - as with Pierce
4. Terry - as with Pierce and KG
5. AB - would net nice talent in return
6. Green - his play lately may raise an eyebrow or two

If we want to do any deal that will bring back an asset of any value, one of those guys would need to go out.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 06:45:53 AM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Bass and green for josh smith? RUMORS.
« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2013, 06:45:51 AM »

Offline chambers

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I would rather give up Sully, Bass and Lee for Smith.
Money works, and the Hawks get two nice chips in Bass and Lee, and a great young stud in Sully. Throw in a pick or Melo if we must.

We need Green AND Smith to compete with Miami and OKC in my opinion.

Imagine the Heat trying to guard Pierce, Green and Smith...it would be a match up nightmare for every team-particularly with KG stretching the floor

Looking at that deal from Atlanta's perspective:

* Lee is nice defensively, but has been very inconsistent offensively.  He is currently on a long term contract and doesn't seem to have much potential beyond what you see now. 

* Bass is a pure jumpshooter who OCCASIONALLY rebounds decently and plays some decent defense - but rarely.  He has very bad hands and low basketball IQ, but he plays hard.  He is currently on a long term contract and doesn't seem to have much potential beyond what you see now.

* Sullinger is a talented young rookie who looks to have a lot of upside, but he was passed on in the draft (despite his obvious talents) due to concerns over his back. He's currently out for the season getting back surgery - his back issue is no longer a rumour and is now a proven concern, and there is no way for other teams to know whether he will recover from it well or not.

So you are asking Atlanta to give up a highly talented young stud (who is also highly valued by about 6-8 teams right now) in return for two borderline starters with little potential (and little trade value, and long term contracts), and a young guy with a bad back.

You really think they will take that?

It's not what they want, it's what teams will give them and that the Celtics are one of the only teams that Smith would agree to a sign and trade with.
He ain't interested in the Bucks or Bobcats. He wants to play with Rondo and KG.
Sully is still potentially a great player. Lee and Bass are good trade chips down the line for Ferry to use to acquire some first round picks. He can play them as starters and boost their stats for a season if need be, or keep them as cheap, reliable veterans on a young squad. I mean he's got two Celtics starters for 10 million which is pretty good and he's got Melo and or a pick.
Pretty good haul to me for a guy that's walking in a few months.
Danny Ainge tried to get CP3 & David West to add to KG, Pierce and Ray Allen. Just Imagine if the stars had aligned...

Re: Bass and green for josh smith? RUMORS.
« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2013, 06:46:12 AM »

Offline Birdman

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Smith isnt going to resign with Atlanta so they better trade him and get something rather than nothing

Re: Bass and green for josh smith? RUMORS.
« Reply #51 on: February 17, 2013, 06:50:03 AM »

Offline henr1k

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It has been reported that Hawks would like a center back if they traded Smith, to pair him with Horford.
Combining rumors, something like this could make sense if Danny actually decided to trade KG.

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine/?tradeId=d6pxwvg

Boston In:

Josh Smith
Eric Bledsoe
Anthony Tolliver

Boston Out:

Kevin Garnett
Fab Melo
Leandro Barbosa

Atlanta In:

DeAndre Jordan
Fab Melo
Leandro Barbosa

Atlanta Out:

Josh Smith
Anthony Tolliver

Clippers In:

Kevin Garnett

Clippers Out:

Eric Bledsoe
DeAndre Jordan

Re: Bass and green for josh smith? RUMORS.
« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2013, 06:55:56 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I would rather give up Sully, Bass and Lee for Smith.
Money works, and the Hawks get two nice chips in Bass and Lee, and a great young stud in Sully. Throw in a pick or Melo if we must.

We need Green AND Smith to compete with Miami and OKC in my opinion.

Imagine the Heat trying to guard Pierce, Green and Smith...it would be a match up nightmare for every team-particularly with KG stretching the floor

Looking at that deal from Atlanta's perspective:

* Lee is nice defensively, but has been very inconsistent offensively.  He is currently on a long term contract and doesn't seem to have much potential beyond what you see now. 

* Bass is a pure jumpshooter who OCCASIONALLY rebounds decently and plays some decent defense - but rarely.  He has very bad hands and low basketball IQ, but he plays hard.  He is currently on a long term contract and doesn't seem to have much potential beyond what you see now.

* Sullinger is a talented young rookie who looks to have a lot of upside, but he was passed on in the draft (despite his obvious talents) due to concerns over his back. He's currently out for the season getting back surgery - his back issue is no longer a rumour and is now a proven concern, and there is no way for other teams to know whether he will recover from it well or not.

So you are asking Atlanta to give up a highly talented young stud (who is also highly valued by about 6-8 teams right now) in return for two borderline starters with little potential (and little trade value, and long term contracts), and a young guy with a bad back.

You really think they will take that?

It's not what they want, it's what teams will give them and that the Celtics are one of the only teams that Smith would agree to a sign and trade with.
He ain't interested in the Bucks or Bobcats. He wants to play with Rondo and KG.
Sully is still potentially a great player. Lee and Bass are good trade chips down the line for Ferry to use to acquire some first round picks. He can play them as starters and boost their stats for a season if need be, or keep them as cheap, reliable veterans on a young squad. I mean he's got two Celtics starters for 10 million which is pretty good and he's got Melo and or a pick.
Pretty good haul to me for a guy that's walking in a few months.

Howard wanted to go to NJ and said it was the only team he'd re-sign with, but the Magic sent him to the Lakers, against his will.

This is a business, teams will do what ever gets them the best return - if they feel they cannot get anything decent in return, they may well keep him and try to get him to re-sign (we won't have the cap space to sign him postseason). 

Agreed he doesn't want to go to the bobcats, but the Nets? Maybe he would accept that.  Chris Humphries is a more attractive piece than anyone in that Lee/Bass/Sully deal, and NJ are stacked with depth so they have plenty of guys they could throw in (such as Blatche, who is on a min contract and would be a nice sweetener). 

A combination of Bass + Hortford makes Atlanta a very small team up front, and Atlanta stands to give up about 7 points, 2 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 block and 1 steal per game if they replace Josh with Bass.

Humphries on the other hand gives them a potential 12/10 guy who can (along with Hortford) can give them a dominant rebounding front line, and who can score probably at least as well as Bass.

Lee gives them a guy who is somewhere between a mediocre starter and a solid bench player.  Not sure he's THAT valueable to Atlanta.

Sully once again has very little value right now until teams know more about his back.  He'd be much more valuable as a trade asset once he comes back from surgery - if he still plays effectively and shows no back issues, he will be strongly desired...but until then he's a big risk for a playoff team like Atlanta that would probably rather have an asset that helps them right now, rather than one that MIGHT (or might not) help them next year. 

From our perspective, giving up Sully and Bass (even if Atl does agree to the deal) leaves us with only Wilcox as a true backup PF - a guy who has historically been injury prone.  Green can backup both SF and PF, but how effectively (in the long term) we still don't know. 

Re: Bass and green for josh smith? RUMORS.
« Reply #53 on: February 17, 2013, 07:02:06 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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It has been reported that Hawks would like a center back if they traded Smith, to pair him with Horford.
Combining rumors, something like this could make sense if Danny actually decided to trade KG.

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine/?tradeId=d6pxwvg

Boston In:

Josh Smith
Eric Bledsoe
Anthony Tolliver

Boston Out:

Kevin Garnett
Fab Melo
Leandro Barbosa

Atlanta In:

DeAndre Jordan
Fab Melo
Leandro Barbosa

Atlanta Out:

Josh Smith
Anthony Tolliver

Clippers In:

Kevin Garnett

Clippers Out:

Eric Bledsoe
DeAndre Jordan

If we have to trade KG out it makes a lot of sense to get Josh Smith in return  - he's a good rebounder and a versatile defender who is athletic enough to defend the pick and roll, but also a capable shot blocker who can defend the basket. He's also averating 17 PPG which (per minute) is pretty much dead on what KG is averaging right now, so we don't really lose anything in terms of scoring production.  Like KG he's also a very good passer for a big.

The problem is that KG is a 7 footer and can play center effectively, while Josh Smith (at 6'9") really only has the size to be a PF.  If we make this deal who starts at center - Wilcox, Collins? 

Wilcox doesn't seem to have the fitness right now to play starters minutes, and his injury history makes him a big risk.  Collins clearly is not a starting calibre center.  Neither Green nor Smith can really play center. We're pretty much screwed at center with this deal, but it helps us for the future. 

Re: Bass and green for josh smith? RUMORS.
« Reply #54 on: February 17, 2013, 07:19:46 AM »

Offline henr1k

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@crimson_stallion: Yes, you are right. There would obviously have to be another trade following this one to bring back a starting caliber center. It's easier to say that do though.

Pipe dream would obviously be Rondo for Howard but that seems highly unlikely.

Edit: But my point was that this makes sense for Hawks. They aren't trading Smith for Bass or Green's contract.

Re: Bass and green for josh smith? RUMORS.
« Reply #55 on: February 17, 2013, 04:23:43 PM »

Offline The Rondo Show

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Trading Green in a deal for J Smoove totally defeats the purpose of the trade IMO
DKC Suns

Re: Bass and green for josh smith? RUMORS.
« Reply #56 on: February 17, 2013, 04:27:36 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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1. Rondo - even injured, he could still net a good return
2. Pierce - a contender would offer a decent (not great)  return
3. KG - as with Pierce
4. Terry - as with Pierce and KG
5. AB - would net nice talent in return
6. Green - his play lately may raise an eyebrow or two
I think Celtics fans are seriously overvaluing Avery Bradley.
Managing Rilski Sportist to glory at http://www.buzzerbeater.com

Re: Bass and green for josh smith? RUMORS.
« Reply #57 on: February 17, 2013, 04:46:35 PM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

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1. Rondo - even injured, he could still net a good return
2. Pierce - a contender would offer a decent (not great)  return
3. KG - as with Pierce
4. Terry - as with Pierce and KG
5. AB - would net nice talent in return
6. Green - his play lately may raise an eyebrow or two
I think Celtics fans are seriously overvaluing Avery Bradley.

Lets not start this again..

Re: Bass and green for josh smith? RUMORS.
« Reply #58 on: February 17, 2013, 05:04:26 PM »

Offline Smokeeye123

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If we did this we'd have to be making another trade for some extra bodies...

Re: Bass and green for josh smith? RUMORS.
« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2013, 05:27:25 PM »

Offline jdz101

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I would continue to lowball them until the serious trade contenders show themselves.

Noone seems to want to give up a heap for this guy. Especially with the impression that he's leaving the hawks for free at the end of the year.

The hawks will get nervous on deadline day and if danny puts a lowball offer out there, they may just bite. If someone overpays for smith then let them do that.


how much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck was chris bosh?

 

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