Author Topic: Rumor: Rondo for Howard...?  (Read 11238 times)

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Offline CoachBo

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Re: Rumor: Rondo for Howard...?
« Reply #195 on: February 19, 2013, 09:48:44 AM »
Saying that Rondo's outside shooting doesn't stop him from being a good player = praising him like a deity, criticisms that don't mesh with any available stats are well constructed and based on reason and facts.
This conversation has long moved past Rondo's shooting (which has improved) and is now about his newly found love for dribbling the ball at the top of the key. And yes, there are stats for this, it seems.

I'm hard at work on a sabremetric to measure Rondo's "fiddlin' and diddlin'" as Johnny Most would put it.

I think I'll call it the BS Quotent.

For ball-stopping, of course.


Offline winsomme

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Re: Rumor: Rondo for Howard...?
« Reply #196 on: February 19, 2013, 10:09:56 AM »
Saying that Rondo's outside shooting doesn't stop him from being a good player = praising him like a deity, criticisms that don't mesh with any available stats are well constructed and based on reason and facts.
This conversation has long moved past Rondo's shooting (which has improved) and is now about his newly found love for dribbling the ball at the top of the key. And yes, there are stats for this, it seems.

We are also long past the idea that Rondo is not an elite PG, yet some people cling to it desperately...

If I had the energy I would be right there posting with Bball. Rondo is a tremendous player. It's not really even debatable anymore.

Offline CelticsFan9

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Re: Rumor: Rondo for Howard...?
« Reply #197 on: February 19, 2013, 10:15:55 AM »
Saying that Rondo's outside shooting doesn't stop him from being a good player = praising him like a deity, criticisms that don't mesh with any available stats are well constructed and based on reason and facts.
This conversation has long moved past Rondo's shooting (which has improved) and is now about his newly found love for dribbling the ball at the top of the key. And yes, there are stats for this, it seems.

We are also long past the idea that Rondo is not an elite PG, yet some people cling to it desperately...

If I had the energy I would be right there posting with Bball. Rondo is a tremendous player. It's not really even debatable anymore.

I don't think there's anyone who doesn't consider Rondo an elite PG.

The part where fans get split is HOW elite.  Like for instance, I gawk at people who say Rondo's better than Chris Paul and Derrick Rose (when healthy).  Personally, I feel those two are far and away better than Rondo.  Kyrie Irving is hot on his tail.  I think Rondo is the third best PG in the league, and others don't.

Unfortunately, some don't take criticism of Rondo lightly, and that leads to heated debates.

Offline BballTim

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Re: Rumor: Rondo for Howard...?
« Reply #198 on: February 19, 2013, 10:25:16 AM »
Saying that Rondo's outside shooting doesn't stop him from being a good player = praising him like a deity, criticisms that don't mesh with any available stats are well constructed and based on reason and facts.
This conversation has long moved past Rondo's shooting (which has improved) and is now about his newly found love for dribbling the ball at the top of the key. And yes, there are stats for this, it seems.

  Rondo dribbling the ball at the top of the key isn't a new thing, in fact we've had our best runs on offense when it's happened. Maybe part of the problem lately is that some of the other players weren't moving as much off the ball. Do you have stats about that? Or maybe you have stats that say we're playing at a faster pace now, or that we're taking fewer shots late in the shot clock without Rondo?

Offline winsomme

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Re: Rumor: Rondo for Howard...?
« Reply #199 on: February 19, 2013, 10:27:33 AM »
Saying that Rondo's outside shooting doesn't stop him from being a good player = praising him like a deity, criticisms that don't mesh with any available stats are well constructed and based on reason and facts.
This conversation has long moved past Rondo's shooting (which has improved) and is now about his newly found love for dribbling the ball at the top of the key. And yes, there are stats for this, it seems.

We are also long past the idea that Rondo is not an elite PG, yet some people cling to it desperately...

If I had the energy I would be right there posting with Bball. Rondo is a tremendous player. It's not really even debatable anymore.

I don't think there's anyone who doesn't consider Rondo an elite PG.

The part where fans get split is HOW elite.  Like for instance, I gawk at people who say Rondo's better than Chris Paul and Derrick Rose (when healthy).  Personally, I feel those two are far and away better than Rondo.  Kyrie Irving is hot on his tail.  I think Rondo is the third best PG in the league, and others don't.

Unfortunately, some don't take criticism of Rondo lightly, and that leads to heated debates.

Well the problem, CF, is when you throw in terms like "far and away." If you truly felt that Rondo was "elite" then other top PGs would not be "far and away" better...better yes, but not far and away better.

It's that kind of inconsistency that reveals underlying distaste for Rondo that some here seem not able to get past. For some fans, it's like taking cough syrup to call Rondo elite. you can tell it's just tough for them to swallow because they have spent years saying he wasn't elite and still aren't really able acknowledge it..

Offline winsomme

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Re: Rumor: Rondo for Howard...?
« Reply #200 on: February 19, 2013, 10:31:28 AM »
Saying that Rondo's outside shooting doesn't stop him from being a good player = praising him like a deity, criticisms that don't mesh with any available stats are well constructed and based on reason and facts.
This conversation has long moved past Rondo's shooting (which has improved) and is now about his newly found love for dribbling the ball at the top of the key. And yes, there are stats for this, it seems.

  Rondo dribbling the ball at the top of the key isn't a new thing, in fact we've had our best runs on offense when it's happened. Maybe part of the problem lately is that some of the other players weren't moving as much off the ball. Do you have stats about that? Or maybe you have stats that say we're playing at a faster pace now, or that we're taking fewer shots late in the shot clock without Rondo?

Yeah Lee was completely unable to play off of Rondo.

And that style of play, by the way, is crunch-time playoff basketball. You need to be able to execute in slowed down half court sets to win in the playoffs, and that is why Rondo has been so valuable in our playoff runs.

Offline snowball

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Re: Rumor: Rondo for Howard...?
« Reply #201 on: February 19, 2013, 10:38:08 AM »
I would trade Rondo for Howard in a heartbeat.

Offline kozlodoev

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Re: Rumor: Rondo for Howard...?
« Reply #202 on: February 19, 2013, 10:44:56 AM »
Saying that Rondo's outside shooting doesn't stop him from being a good player = praising him like a deity, criticisms that don't mesh with any available stats are well constructed and based on reason and facts.
This conversation has long moved past Rondo's shooting (which has improved) and is now about his newly found love for dribbling the ball at the top of the key. And yes, there are stats for this, it seems.

I'm hard at work on a sabremetric to measure Rondo's "fiddlin' and diddlin'" as Johnny Most would put it.

I think I'll call it the BS Quotent.

For ball-stopping, of course.
You call and I oblige:

Quote
It’s no secret Boston’s offense had grown very Rondo-dominant, especially this season. The Celtics are one of 15 teams that have invested in fancy data-tracking cameras from STATS LLC, and the information from those cameras, provided exclusively to Grantland, backs up that notion. Rondo has dribbled the ball about 486 times per tracked game this season, the fourth-highest figure in the league for players on those 15 camera teams, and about 90 more dribbles per game than he averaged last season, according to the data. A larger percentage of his touches — 41 percent this season, 35.5 percent last season — have involved at least six dribbles.

This has naturally resulted in fewer touches, and shorter touches, for some of Boston’s secondary ball-handlers. Terry dribbles the ball twice on average every time he gets it, down from a three-dribble average last season, and a much higher percentage of his touches have lasted between zero and two seconds in Boston, the data show. Pierce’s stats have shifted in a similar way, and Terry is still on pace for a career-low usage rate — a measure of the percentage of Boston possessions that end with a Terry shot, drawn foul or turnover.

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/50099/are-the-celtics-really-this-good-without-rajon-rondo
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Offline CelticsFan9

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Re: Rumor: Rondo for Howard...?
« Reply #203 on: February 19, 2013, 11:30:47 AM »
Saying that Rondo's outside shooting doesn't stop him from being a good player = praising him like a deity, criticisms that don't mesh with any available stats are well constructed and based on reason and facts.
This conversation has long moved past Rondo's shooting (which has improved) and is now about his newly found love for dribbling the ball at the top of the key. And yes, there are stats for this, it seems.

We are also long past the idea that Rondo is not an elite PG, yet some people cling to it desperately...

If I had the energy I would be right there posting with Bball. Rondo is a tremendous player. It's not really even debatable anymore.

I don't think there's anyone who doesn't consider Rondo an elite PG.

The part where fans get split is HOW elite.  Like for instance, I gawk at people who say Rondo's better than Chris Paul and Derrick Rose (when healthy).  Personally, I feel those two are far and away better than Rondo.  Kyrie Irving is hot on his tail.  I think Rondo is the third best PG in the league, and others don't.

Unfortunately, some don't take criticism of Rondo lightly, and that leads to heated debates.

Well the problem, CF, is when you throw in terms like "far and away." If you truly felt that Rondo was "elite" then other top PGs would not be "far and away" better...better yes, but not far and away better.

It's that kind of inconsistency that reveals underlying distaste for Rondo that some here seem not able to get past. For some fans, it's like taking cough syrup to call Rondo elite. you can tell it's just tough for them to swallow because they have spent years saying he wasn't elite and still aren't really able acknowledge it..

True.  I probably shouldn't have used "far and away."  More like, "Rondo's really, really good, it's just that Rose and Paul are better."

I don't dislike Rondo at all.  I love Rondo.  He's my second favorite guy on the team behind KG.  I just feel Rondo needs to work on a couple facets of his game (consistency, primarily) and he can take. His game to whole new, SCARY level.

Offline BballTim

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Re: Rumor: Rondo for Howard...?
« Reply #204 on: February 19, 2013, 11:38:17 AM »
Saying that Rondo's outside shooting doesn't stop him from being a good player = praising him like a deity, criticisms that don't mesh with any available stats are well constructed and based on reason and facts.
This conversation has long moved past Rondo's shooting (which has improved) and is now about his newly found love for dribbling the ball at the top of the key. And yes, there are stats for this, it seems.

I'm hard at work on a sabremetric to measure Rondo's "fiddlin' and diddlin'" as Johnny Most would put it.

I think I'll call it the BS Quotent.

For ball-stopping, of course.
You call and I oblige:

Quote
It’s no secret Boston’s offense had grown very Rondo-dominant, especially this season. The Celtics are one of 15 teams that have invested in fancy data-tracking cameras from STATS LLC, and the information from those cameras, provided exclusively to Grantland, backs up that notion. Rondo has dribbled the ball about 486 times per tracked game this season, the fourth-highest figure in the league for players on those 15 camera teams, and about 90 more dribbles per game than he averaged last season, according to the data. A larger percentage of his touches — 41 percent this season, 35.5 percent last season — have involved at least six dribbles.

This has naturally resulted in fewer touches, and shorter touches, for some of Boston’s secondary ball-handlers. Terry dribbles the ball twice on average every time he gets it, down from a three-dribble average last season, and a much higher percentage of his touches have lasted between zero and two seconds in Boston, the data show. Pierce’s stats have shifted in a similar way, and Terry is still on pace for a career-low usage rate — a measure of the percentage of Boston possessions that end with a Terry shot, drawn foul or turnover.

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/50099/are-the-celtics-really-this-good-without-rajon-rondo

  I don't know that those numbers are as bad as people wish they were. If Rondo's 4th out of 15 teams in dribbles/game, he's probably 7th-8th in the nba. You'd think from this thread that he was the league leader by a significant margin. I don't see why a point guard who's a) on a team that plays at a slowish pace and b) leads the league in assists by a pretty good margin wouldn't be expected to be among the top 10 players in the league in dribbles per game.

  You'd expect players like Kobe, LeBron and Melo to be in the top 5 for dribbles per game. I wonder if you two could easily name the rest of the top 10 in the league, off the top of your heads and without consulting any stats. It must be awfully simple, seeing as it's apparently one of the most noticeable things that happen in a game. I'd also wonder whether you would have the same criticism of their games as you do for Rondo. Or whether this is just another overly large molehill.

Offline kozlodoev

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Re: Rumor: Rondo for Howard...?
« Reply #205 on: February 19, 2013, 11:55:10 AM »
I don't know that those numbers are as bad as people wish they were. If Rondo's 4th out of 15 teams in dribbles/game, he's probably 7th-8th in the nba. You'd think from this thread that he was the league leader by a significant margin. I don't see why a point guard who's a) on a team that plays at a slowish pace and b) leads the league in assists by a pretty good margin wouldn't be expected to be among the top 10 players in the league in dribbles per game.
He managed to be all that last year with much less dribbling. Coincidentally, some of his teammates played much better, and so did the team as a whole.

I'm sure he wants to lead the team, I'm just not sure he knows how (hint: dribbling the ball until you can get someone a shot is not the best way to do this).

You'd expect players like Kobe, LeBron and Melo to be in the top 5 for dribbles per game. I wonder if you two could easily name the rest of the top 10 in the league, off the top of your heads and without consulting any stats. It must be awfully simple, seeing as it's apparently one of the most noticeable things that happen in a game. I'd also wonder whether you would have the same criticism of their games as you do for Rondo. Or whether this is just another overly large molehill.
I'm sure I could if I were watching every team in the league as much as I watch the Celtics. Except I don't.

But this is about Rondo, and the trends in Rondo's game. And is funny how the tune changes from "there's no evidence that this is true" to "this is not really an issue" when the evidence turns up. Boo-ya.
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Online bdm860

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Re: Rumor: Rondo for Howard...?
« Reply #206 on: February 19, 2013, 12:19:17 PM »
How about this, instead of Rondo for Howard, the C’s trade the Rondo for Kobe Bryant.

1.    Scared they’ll lose Dwight to free agency, Lakers choose to build around 27 year old Howard, instead of trying to rebuild around 34 year old Bryant.  Pretty much coming full circle from when they traded 32 year old Shaq, choosing to go with 26 year old Bryant.  Get rid of the players Dwight doesn’t like (Kobe), bring in players he does (Dwight and Rondo are buddies, right?), maybe Dwight signs an extension now if the Lakers make it clear it's Dwight’s team.

2.   Lakers have said they’re not trading Howard, said nothing about Kobe, wink, wink.  ;D

3.   While the salaries would have to be pretty close to make a trade work, shedding a $30m contract is a big step towards cutting costs.  Not that the Lakers are that concerned about cutting costs, but they don’t want to pay a $70m luxury tax next year for a dysfunctional team that can’t make the playoffs.  Getting several smaller contracts for a big one, they’ll be easier to move later for cost cutting purposes.  Or maybe a multi-team trade with Rondo and expirings going to Lakers.

4.   The Celtics choose to make one last veteran push, with Garnett, Pierce, and Kobe all off the books/unguaranteed after 2014.

Rondo/Green/Bass works, or perhaps a multi-team deal moving Green or Bass for expirings.  Maybe throw in Avery Bradley (since he won’t get as much time with Kobe).

Celtics:
Lee/Terry
Kobe/Terry
Pierce
?/Sullinger (next year).
Garnett
(? = Maybe the C’s swing another small deal for Dajuan Blair or some other serviceable big).

Lakers:
Get a core of Rondo/Howard (something a lot of us hoped for in the past), and maybe even Bradley/Green for very solid starting support.  (Or maybe it's Green/Bass/Bradley to ATL for Josh Smith, now the Lakers just put together the coveted Celticsblog dream team of Rondo/Smith/Howard!  :D)

Obviously we lose a lot of the depth we had left, but other minor deals  could probably be made to help patch some holes.

Think about it, if Danny was the GM of the Lakers, he probably would have already pulled the trigger on this thing, lol.

(Not really serious about this, so no need to waste your time poking holes or ridiculing it, just having some fun spit balling  :) ).


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Online Celtics4ever

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Re: Rumor: Rondo for Howard...?
« Reply #207 on: February 19, 2013, 12:20:37 PM »
Quote
You'd expect players like Kobe, LeBron and Melo to be in the top 5 for dribbles per game.

Not me, I would expect a PG who advances the ball but then I played basketball and know the positions.   I also, know a pass is faster than a dribble but I would expect PG's to dribble the most.

Offline Celtics18

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Re: Rumor: Rondo for Howard...?
« Reply #208 on: February 19, 2013, 12:28:55 PM »
I don't know that those numbers are as bad as people wish they were. If Rondo's 4th out of 15 teams in dribbles/game, he's probably 7th-8th in the nba. You'd think from this thread that he was the league leader by a significant margin. I don't see why a point guard who's a) on a team that plays at a slowish pace and b) leads the league in assists by a pretty good margin wouldn't be expected to be among the top 10 players in the league in dribbles per game.
He managed to be all that last year with much less dribbling. Coincidentally, some of his teammates played much better, and so did the team as a whole.

I'm sure he wants to lead the team, I'm just not sure he knows how (hint: dribbling the ball until you can get someone a shot is not the best way to do this).

You'd expect players like Kobe, LeBron and Melo to be in the top 5 for dribbles per game. I wonder if you two could easily name the rest of the top 10 in the league, off the top of your heads and without consulting any stats. It must be awfully simple, seeing as it's apparently one of the most noticeable things that happen in a game. I'd also wonder whether you would have the same criticism of their games as you do for Rondo. Or whether this is just another overly large molehill.
I'm sure I could if I were watching every team in the league as much as I watch the Celtics. Except I don't.

But this is about Rondo, and the trends in Rondo's game. And is funny how the tune changes from "there's no evidence that this is true" to "this is not really an issue" when the evidence turns up. Boo-ya.

Sorry, but your evidence is almost completely meaningless.  There's no context whatsoever.  I'd love to see a complete list of the 15 teams that track dribbles per possession, and a list of how many dribbles per possession each player on those teams takes.  My guess is that some of the best players on the best teams, like Chris Paul,  Lebron James, Kevin Durant, and Tony Parker, are among the league leaders in dribbles per possession. 

You'd have to show me way more than what's in that short, vague paragraph that you posted to be able to make any correlations about anything. 
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Offline BballTim

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Re: Rumor: Rondo for Howard...?
« Reply #209 on: February 19, 2013, 12:35:36 PM »
I don't know that those numbers are as bad as people wish they were. If Rondo's 4th out of 15 teams in dribbles/game, he's probably 7th-8th in the nba. You'd think from this thread that he was the league leader by a significant margin. I don't see why a point guard who's a) on a team that plays at a slowish pace and b) leads the league in assists by a pretty good margin wouldn't be expected to be among the top 10 players in the league in dribbles per game.
He managed to be all that last year with much less dribbling. Coincidentally, some of his teammates played much better, and so did the team as a whole.

  And how much of the issue do you blame on Rondo and how much on the team as a whole? Hint: all on Rondo.

I'm sure he wants to lead the team, I'm just not sure he knows how (hint: dribbling the ball until you can get someone a shot is not the best way to do this).

  Hint: He's been one of the leaders of the team for at least a few years, assuming the coaches and players are in more of a position to judge such things than you are.

You'd expect players like Kobe, LeBron and Melo to be in the top 5 for dribbles per game. I wonder if you two could easily name the rest of the top 10 in the league, off the top of your heads and without consulting any stats. It must be awfully simple, seeing as it's apparently one of the most noticeable things that happen in a game. I'd also wonder whether you would have the same criticism of their games as you do for Rondo. Or whether this is just another overly large molehill.
I'm sure I could if I were watching every team in the league as much as I watch the Celtics. Except I don't.

  I thought as much.

But this is about Rondo, and the trends in Rondo's game. And is funny how the tune changes from "there's no evidence that this is true" to "this is not really an issue" when the evidence turns up. Boo-ya.

  My point of view has always been about whether this is the issue for the team that people claim that it is. I've been talking about the team's pace with and without Rondo, how many late in the shot clock shots we take compared to other teams and how we're still getting a lot of jumpers late in the shot clock despite our ball movement, and that we're normally a good offense when Rondo controls the ball. And I was discussing all of those topics well before someone stumbled upon that "proof". So, double boo-ya right back atcha.

 

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