Author Topic: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?  (Read 5187 times)

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Re: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?
« Reply #75 on: February 16, 2013, 03:02:27 PM »

Offline Snakehead

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His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages

OMG. Can we stop bringing up his career averages? Jesus Christ. His career averages and his potential deserve 9 mil

No they don't.
Sure. He should just play for the veteran minimum, because hey, his AVERAGES suck.

So I guess there is no salary that is between $9 million and the veteran minimum.  I had no idea.  Post of the year, kozlodev.  Your sarcasm here doesn't even make sense.  Do you even know what the veteran minimum is?  Do you know that we have multiple players that make less than $9 million and more than the veteran minimum?

I'd love to be an agent negotating with you.  As long as my player is better than the league minimum, you'd give me $9 million?  I didn't know Ernie Grunfeld (or Billy King?)posted on CelticsBlog.
I'd love to play this game with you. So what do you think is the going rate of starting forwards similar to Green in skill level? Some examples won't hurt.

I'll even give you a joker: here are some active players whose careers resemble Jeff Green's: Ersan Ilyasova, Danilo Gallinari, Taj Gibson. Why don't you check what they're signed for, and we can talk.

10 and 3. "skill level" wont change that, only better play.

Given playing time, he could easily, I repeat easily score 20ppg

Hard to average 20 when you can't accomplish it in a single game, which he hasn't yet this year.

Jeff green is averaging 24 minutes a game...

Is your idea of him proving his worth at 9mill/per that he scores a point per minute off the bench?

Not many guys score a point per minute, and the ones that come close are payed a whole bunch more than 9 million.

I'm not the one that argued he should average 20ppg, I'm the one who pointed out he hasn't done it even once in a game yet this year. For a guy who doesn't do much else well, Green's dollar earned per point scored absolutely sucks. Again, Webster, Brewer, Barnes and Dunleavy are all examples of guys scoring and rebounding better than Green as back-up SFs in almost precisely the same number of minutes per game for a fraction of the price.

Does Green have more potential than most of those guys? Sure. Is he "earning his paycheck"? Not yet.

Martell webster is a career 8 point 3 rebound player at a poor FG%.

Corey brewer is a career 9 point 3 rebound player at a poor FG%, who's numbers also benefit greatly from being on a massively run and gun outfit.

Matt barnes is a career 7 point 4 rebound player with an average FG%. He plays with the best point guard in the league.

Not even going to bother with dunleavy's stats as he has the toughness of my baby cousin and cant defend a stationary sack of oranges.

Two of those guys would not even see time for doc rivers. And green is considerably more talented and useful as an all-round player than the other two.

Nonetheless, all of them are as or more productive in the same minutes (and at better shooting percentages) than Green. So that doesn't say much about Green earning that money just yet, particularly when not one of them makes half what Green does.

Or maybe the question in the title of the thread has been forgotten?

I'm telling you that green is a considerably more talented player than those you have mentioned, and would absolutely wipe the floor with a couple of them, and you're saying "sure, but their numbers are stronger this season right now."

Green deserves more money because he is a better player. It's pretty simple.

Awesome. Next time I want to be paid twice what my peers are, I'll just tell my boss I'm considerably more talented and "better" than they are -- that i can wipe the floor with them, if you will -- regardless of what the hard data about my work demonstrates. Hopefully it will work for me as well as it has Green!

Or maybe, how this works, you go to your boss and say Company "X" will pay me salary "Y"... you are not offering me that salary.  People who do the same work I do get paid around salary "Y". Would you like to match that offer?

Then they can choose to pay you that salary or not.

The market dictates price.  You know that "absurd" thing called economics.


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Re: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?
« Reply #76 on: February 16, 2013, 03:11:51 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Danny Ainge understands what he has with Jeff Green.  He's a guy who can give you 15 points a game as a 3rd option (he's done it).  He's a guy who could give you 19 points a game as a 2nd or 1st option (he dropped 20+ consistently when Durant was out).   He's a guy who if he's backing up your 2nd best player and only getting 24 minutes off the bench, can give you double digits off the bench (both his seasons in Boston). 

Danny was militant in keeping Jeff Green, because he's a solid asset to have.  Very capable player.  He's young enough that he has another 6+ years where he can be a solid starter/trade asset.  Paul Pierce has only a couple years left in him.  You don't just let a guy like Jeff Green leave for nothing.  Green absolutely will be starting at some point in the future... it could be as soon as next week if Paul PIerce is moved... or later this season if Pierce gets injured.  Or next year if Pierce retires.  Or two years from now.   But the fact is, Jeff Green is a starter who temporarily has a limited role and we have him locked up until 2015... there is plenty of time for him to prove his actual worth either as a Celtic or a trade asset.

You really can't be disappointed in how Jeff Green is playing.  Paul Pierce is averaging 18 points in 34 minutes as our #1 option.  If you took away 10 of PIerce's minutes, made him the 6th option and had him come off the bench backing up Jeff Green, you wouldn't expect him to drop 20 a night either.  That's foolish.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 03:19:39 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?
« Reply #77 on: February 16, 2013, 03:28:26 PM »

Offline ssspence

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Danny Ainge understands what he has with Jeff Green.  He's a guy who can give you 15 points a game as a 3rd option (he's done it).  He's a guy who could give you 19 points a game as a 2nd or 1st option (he dropped 20+ consistently when Durant was out).   He's a guy who if he's backing up your 2nd best player and only getting 24 minutes off the bench, can give you double digits off the bench (both his seasons in Boston). 

Danny was militant in keeping Jeff Green, because he's a solid asset to have.  Very capable player.  He's young enough that he has another 6+ years where he can be a solid starter/trade asset.  Paul Pierce has only a couple years left in him.  You don't just let a guy like Jeff Green leave for nothing.  Green absolutely will be starting at some point in the future... it could be as soon as next week if Paul PIerce is moved... or later this season if Pierce gets injured.  Or next year if Pierce retires.  Or two years from now.   But the fact is, Jeff Green is a starter who temporarily has a limited role and we have him locked up until 2015... there is plenty of time for him to prove his actual worth either as a Celtic or a trade asset.

You really can't be disappointed in how Jeff Green is playing.  Paul Pierce is averaging 18 points in 34 minutes as our #1 option.  If you took away 10 of PIerce's minutes, made him the 6th option and had him come off the bench backing up Jeff Green, you wouldn't expect him to drop 20 a night either.  That's foolish.

Well put. I believe Green is a solid asset, and can earn his price point when he's truly healthy, and he's a starter. And yes, he's been better of late. But he's been highly inconsistent at both ends of the floor in 2013, and his rebounding and passing remain well below par.

Even if the Cs understood they were overpaying to keep Green (which they did), he still needs to improve his productivity to justify his salary. But that past few weeks have certainly been a step in the correct direction.


Re: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?
« Reply #78 on: February 16, 2013, 03:46:35 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Danny Ainge understands what he has with Jeff Green.  He's a guy who can give you 15 points a game as a 3rd option (he's done it).  He's a guy who could give you 19 points a game as a 2nd or 1st option (he dropped 20+ consistently when Durant was out).   He's a guy who if he's backing up your 2nd best player and only getting 24 minutes off the bench, can give you double digits off the bench (both his seasons in Boston). 

Danny was militant in keeping Jeff Green, because he's a solid asset to have.  Very capable player.  He's young enough that he has another 6+ years where he can be a solid starter/trade asset.  Paul Pierce has only a couple years left in him.  You don't just let a guy like Jeff Green leave for nothing.  Green absolutely will be starting at some point in the future... it could be as soon as next week if Paul PIerce is moved... or later this season if Pierce gets injured.  Or next year if Pierce retires.  Or two years from now.   But the fact is, Jeff Green is a starter who temporarily has a limited role and we have him locked up until 2015... there is plenty of time for him to prove his actual worth either as a Celtic or a trade asset.

You really can't be disappointed in how Jeff Green is playing.  Paul Pierce is averaging 18 points in 34 minutes as our #1 option.  If you took away 10 of PIerce's minutes, made him the 6th option and had him come off the bench backing up Jeff Green, you wouldn't expect him to drop 20 a night either.  That's foolish.

Well put. I believe Green is a solid asset, and can earn his price point when he's truly healthy, and he's a starter. And yes, he's been better of late. But he's been highly inconsistent at both ends of the floor in 2013, and his rebounding and passing remain well below par.

Even if the Cs understood they were overpaying to keep Green (which they did), he still needs to improve his productivity to justify his salary. But that past few weeks have certainly been a step in the correct direction.
His increase in production is directly related to his increase in minutes and increase in role.  It's something that is out of his control.  You can't be surprised that he is doing more February (averaging 30 minutes) than he was in November (averaging 21 minutes).  It's not a hard concept to grasp.  He's an effective player and he's been effective all year with the minutes and role we have given him.  I promise you that Danny Ainge wasn't watching Jeff Green average 8.7 points in 21 minutes and thinking to himself, "Why isn't Jeff playing better?!"...   His per-minute numbers have been pretty darn consistent all year. 

Re: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?
« Reply #79 on: February 16, 2013, 04:52:35 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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If he can show you all these examples of players making that same range of money for similar numbers, THEN HE IS NOT OVERPAID.

If there is precedent in the market for that pay for that production, then it isn't a situation where the player is being overpaid.  I don't get what is so hard to understand.  The market sets its own prices.

Sometimes the market sets a bad price.
Well then you pay the bad price. Market determines price in America and the NBA

Ainge has been pretty smart in not paying the market price.  I agree with his decisions to not offer Posey an extra year, to not give Tony Allen a guaranteed third year, and to assume that he wasn't going to match the likely market value of Perkins as a free agent.

If the market sets a bad price, then you can be creative in looking for other solutions.  Slavishly following market trends is stupid.
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Re: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?
« Reply #80 on: February 16, 2013, 05:06:07 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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If he can show you all these examples of players making that same range of money for similar numbers, THEN HE IS NOT OVERPAID.

If there is precedent in the market for that pay for that production, then it isn't a situation where the player is being overpaid.  I don't get what is so hard to understand.  The market sets its own prices.

Sometimes the market sets a bad price.
Well then you pay the bad price. Market determines price in America and the NBA

Ainge has been pretty smart in not paying the market price.  I agree with his decisions to not offer Posey an extra year, to not give Tony Allen a guaranteed third year, and to assume that he wasn't going to match the likely market value of Perkins as a free agent.

If the market sets a bad price, then you can be creative in looking for other solutions.  Slavishly following market trends is stupid.
No, actually he's pretty smart about paying players before their market price goes up. He did it with Perkins, and he did it with Rondo.

A price can never be bad in vacuum. A price can only be bad compared to what the alternatives are. And frankly, people who would rather have Dunleavy, Brewer, or Barnes don't quite understand what the team is doing here.
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Re: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?
« Reply #81 on: February 16, 2013, 05:16:32 PM »

Offline Snakehead

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If he can show you all these examples of players making that same range of money for similar numbers, THEN HE IS NOT OVERPAID.

If there is precedent in the market for that pay for that production, then it isn't a situation where the player is being overpaid.  I don't get what is so hard to understand.  The market sets its own prices.

Sometimes the market sets a bad price.
Well then you pay the bad price. Market determines price in America and the NBA

Ainge has been pretty smart in not paying the market price.  I agree with his decisions to not offer Posey an extra year, to not give Tony Allen a guaranteed third year, and to assume that he wasn't going to match the likely market value of Perkins as a free agent.

If the market sets a bad price, then you can be creative in looking for other solutions.  Slavishly following market trends is stupid.
No, actually he's pretty smart about paying players before their market price goes up. He did it with Perkins, and he did it with Rondo.

A price can never be bad in vacuum. A price can only be bad compared to what the alternatives are. And frankly, people who would rather have Dunleavy, Brewer, or Barnes don't quite understand what the team is doing here.

Right on here.

I was bringing up the market price earlier through this, and I certainly would never suggest there haven't been bad contracts.

As kozlodoev says, these salaries don't come out of a vacuum.  Alternatives have to be considered and what else was going on at the same time.

Everything is relative.  You can only say something is bad if you have relative comparisons for what could have been had otherwise.


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Re: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?
« Reply #82 on: February 16, 2013, 05:57:00 PM »

Offline get_banners

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Btw, Jackie Mac has an awesome piece on Jeff up on ESPN right now: http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/8949730/jeff-green-flourishing-boston-celtics-harness-energy. One thing I didn't know is that doctors have said it will take 2 full years for Green to be recovered from the surgery. Might have something to do with why he's been inconsistent at times with his energy (granted, he has had some issues with this throughout his career, but given his focus on being aggressive this year and getting regular minutes, I don't think its a lack of effort on his part).

Re: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?
« Reply #83 on: February 17, 2013, 02:03:08 AM »

Online LB3533

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Maybe it takes Jeff Green's body only 1 year or 1 year and half to make a full recover? Not everyone heals or recovers at the same rate.

Look at Adrian Peterson.

Hopefully Rondo recovers well and fast too.

Re: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?
« Reply #84 on: February 17, 2013, 02:39:22 AM »

Offline LooseCannon

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I'm starting to think that if you are a GM who believed in Jeff Green after his surgery, then the smart thing to do would have been to give him a long-term contract so that he doesn't feel the pressure to force himself to recover faster than he is physically able to and the worst thing you could have done would have been to try to sign him to a one-year deal and ask him to prove he is healthy.
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Re: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?
« Reply #85 on: February 17, 2013, 07:09:39 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Absolutely he is.

Over his last 10 games (in 30 MPG) Green is averaging:

- 14 PPG
- 4 RPG
- 1.3 APG
- 51% FG
- 40% 3PT
- 89% FT

The 4 rebounds and 1.3 assists is nothing spectacular, but his offensive efficiency off the bench combined with his outstanding defense over the past month or two have been worthy of his contract.

To put it into perspective both Terry and Harden averated around 15 PPG to 16 PPG in similar minutes when they were playing 6MOTY basketball.  If Green plays at this pace for the rest of the season he will play himself well into 6MOTY contention, no doubt about it.

Looking at the money Terry was making in Dallas, Green is pretty much earning that contact as long as he continues to play '6MOTY' calibre basketball for our second unit.

Re: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?
« Reply #86 on: February 17, 2013, 08:54:18 AM »

Offline relja

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Absolutely he is.

Over his last 10 games (in 30 MPG) Green is averaging:

- 14 PPG
- 4 RPG
- 1.3 APG
- 51% FG
- 40% 3PT
- 89% FT

The 4 rebounds and 1.3 assists is nothing spectacular, but his offensive efficiency off the bench combined with his outstanding defense over the past month or two have been worthy of his contract.

To put it into perspective both Terry and Harden averated around 15 PPG to 16 PPG in similar minutes when they were playing 6MOTY basketball.  If Green plays at this pace for the rest of the season he will play himself well into 6MOTY contention, no doubt about it.

Looking at the money Terry was making in Dallas, Green is pretty much earning that contact as long as he continues to play '6MOTY' calibre basketball for our second unit.

IMO, Jarret Jack and Jamal have a better shot at it.

 

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