Author Topic: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?  (Read 4595 times)

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Offline jdz101

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Re: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?
« Reply #60 on: February 16, 2013, 12:19:21 AM »
You're pretty far out there on this one, boss.

I'd recommend taking a look at minutes, ppg, fg%, rpg, apg, and any other particulars of mike dunleavy, martell webster, matt barnes, corey brewer and jeff green -- all very similar, though Green is bringing up the rear in the bunch. Then look at the length and size of their contracts.

Antagonism won't make you correct.
Mike Dunleavy was signed to a Jeff Green type of contract when he was Jeff Green's age (coincidentally, he also performed more or less similarly to what you may expect from Jeff Green when he's no longer our second best player's backup).

You're really not very good at this game  ;D

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dunlemi02.html

One team's mistakes don't justify those of others. Referring to how much Duvleavy was overpaid then, or how much Ilyasova is now, won't mean there aren't dozens of examples of far more productive players making less, nor will it mean you have a stong argument for Jeff Green's value. And it certainly won't remove the egg from your face in this discussion.

Name five far more productive players per 36 than Jeff Green that are on far less money but not on rookie contracts. Go.


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Offline ssspence

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Re: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?
« Reply #61 on: February 16, 2013, 12:21:38 AM »
His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages

OMG. Can we stop bringing up his career averages? Jesus Christ. His career averages and his potential deserve 9 mil

No they don't.
Sure. He should just play for the veteran minimum, because hey, his AVERAGES suck.

So I guess there is no salary that is between $9 million and the veteran minimum.  I had no idea.  Post of the year, kozlodev.  Your sarcasm here doesn't even make sense.  Do you even know what the veteran minimum is?  Do you know that we have multiple players that make less than $9 million and more than the veteran minimum?

I'd love to be an agent negotating with you.  As long as my player is better than the league minimum, you'd give me $9 million?  I didn't know Ernie Grunfeld (or Billy King?)posted on CelticsBlog.
I'd love to play this game with you. So what do you think is the going rate of starting forwards similar to Green in skill level? Some examples won't hurt.

I'll even give you a joker: here are some active players whose careers resemble Jeff Green's: Ersan Ilyasova, Danilo Gallinari, Taj Gibson. Why don't you check what they're signed for, and we can talk.

10 and 3. "skill level" wont change that, only better play.

Given playing time, he could easily, I repeat easily score 20ppg

Hard to average 20 when you can't accomplish it in a single game, which he hasn't yet this year.

Jeff green is averaging 24 minutes a game...

Is your idea of him proving his worth at 9mill/per that he scores a point per minute off the bench?

Not many guys score a point per minute, and the ones that come close are payed a whole bunch more than 9 million.

I'm not the one that argued he should average 20ppg, I'm the one who pointed out he hasn't done it even once in a game yet this year. For a guy who doesn't do much else well, Green's dollar earned per point scored absolutely sucks. Again, Webster, Brewer, Barnes and Dunleavy are all examples of guys scoring and rebounding better than Green as back-up SFs in almost precisely the same number of minutes per game for a fraction of the price.

Does Green have more potential than most of those guys? Sure. Is he "earning his paycheck"? Not yet.

Offline jdz101

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Re: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?
« Reply #62 on: February 16, 2013, 12:27:19 AM »
His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages

OMG. Can we stop bringing up his career averages? Jesus Christ. His career averages and his potential deserve 9 mil

No they don't.
Sure. He should just play for the veteran minimum, because hey, his AVERAGES suck.

So I guess there is no salary that is between $9 million and the veteran minimum.  I had no idea.  Post of the year, kozlodev.  Your sarcasm here doesn't even make sense.  Do you even know what the veteran minimum is?  Do you know that we have multiple players that make less than $9 million and more than the veteran minimum?

I'd love to be an agent negotating with you.  As long as my player is better than the league minimum, you'd give me $9 million?  I didn't know Ernie Grunfeld (or Billy King?)posted on CelticsBlog.
I'd love to play this game with you. So what do you think is the going rate of starting forwards similar to Green in skill level? Some examples won't hurt.

I'll even give you a joker: here are some active players whose careers resemble Jeff Green's: Ersan Ilyasova, Danilo Gallinari, Taj Gibson. Why don't you check what they're signed for, and we can talk.

10 and 3. "skill level" wont change that, only better play.

Given playing time, he could easily, I repeat easily score 20ppg

Hard to average 20 when you can't accomplish it in a single game, which he hasn't yet this year.

Jeff green is averaging 24 minutes a game...

Is your idea of him proving his worth at 9mill/per that he scores a point per minute off the bench?

Not many guys score a point per minute, and the ones that come close are payed a whole bunch more than 9 million.

I'm not the one that argued he should average 20ppg, I'm the one who pointed out he hasn't done it even once in a game yet this year. For a guy who doesn't do much else well, Green's dollar earned per point scored absolutely sucks. Again, Webster, Brewer, Barnes and Dunleavy are all examples of guys scoring and rebounding better than Green as back-up SFs in almost precisely the same number of minutes per game for a fraction of the price.

Does Green have more potential than most of those guys? Sure. Is he "earning his paycheck"? Not yet.

Martell webster is a career 8 point 3 rebound player at a poor FG%.

Corey brewer is a career 9 point 3 rebound player at a poor FG%, who's numbers also benefit greatly from being on a massively run and gun outfit.

Matt barnes is a career 7 point 4 rebound player with an average FG%. He plays with the best point guard in the league.

Not even going to bother with dunleavy's stats as he has the toughness of my baby cousin and cant defend a stationary sack of oranges.

Two of those guys would not even see time for doc rivers. And green is considerably more talented and useful as an all-round player than the other two.


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Offline ssspence

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Re: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?
« Reply #63 on: February 16, 2013, 12:37:39 AM »
His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages

OMG. Can we stop bringing up his career averages? Jesus Christ. His career averages and his potential deserve 9 mil

No they don't.
Sure. He should just play for the veteran minimum, because hey, his AVERAGES suck.

So I guess there is no salary that is between $9 million and the veteran minimum.  I had no idea.  Post of the year, kozlodev.  Your sarcasm here doesn't even make sense.  Do you even know what the veteran minimum is?  Do you know that we have multiple players that make less than $9 million and more than the veteran minimum?

I'd love to be an agent negotating with you.  As long as my player is better than the league minimum, you'd give me $9 million?  I didn't know Ernie Grunfeld (or Billy King?)posted on CelticsBlog.
I'd love to play this game with you. So what do you think is the going rate of starting forwards similar to Green in skill level? Some examples won't hurt.

I'll even give you a joker: here are some active players whose careers resemble Jeff Green's: Ersan Ilyasova, Danilo Gallinari, Taj Gibson. Why don't you check what they're signed for, and we can talk.

10 and 3. "skill level" wont change that, only better play.

Given playing time, he could easily, I repeat easily score 20ppg

Hard to average 20 when you can't accomplish it in a single game, which he hasn't yet this year.

Jeff green is averaging 24 minutes a game...

Is your idea of him proving his worth at 9mill/per that he scores a point per minute off the bench?

Not many guys score a point per minute, and the ones that come close are payed a whole bunch more than 9 million.

I'm not the one that argued he should average 20ppg, I'm the one who pointed out he hasn't done it even once in a game yet this year. For a guy who doesn't do much else well, Green's dollar earned per point scored absolutely sucks. Again, Webster, Brewer, Barnes and Dunleavy are all examples of guys scoring and rebounding better than Green as back-up SFs in almost precisely the same number of minutes per game for a fraction of the price.

Does Green have more potential than most of those guys? Sure. Is he "earning his paycheck"? Not yet.

Martell webster is a career 8 point 3 rebound player at a poor FG%.

Corey brewer is a career 9 point 3 rebound player at a poor FG%, who's numbers also benefit greatly from being on a massively run and gun outfit.

Matt barnes is a career 7 point 4 rebound player with an average FG%. He plays with the best point guard in the league.

Not even going to bother with dunleavy's stats as he has the toughness of my baby cousin and cant defend a stationary sack of oranges.

Two of those guys would not even see time for doc rivers. And green is considerably more talented and useful as an all-round player than the other two.

Nonetheless, all of them are as or more productive in the same minutes (and at better shooting percentages) than Green. So that doesn't say much about Green earning that money just yet, particularly when not one of them makes half what Green does.

Or maybe the question in the title of the thread has been forgotten?

Offline jdz101

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Re: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?
« Reply #64 on: February 16, 2013, 06:38:06 AM »
His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages

OMG. Can we stop bringing up his career averages? Jesus Christ. His career averages and his potential deserve 9 mil

No they don't.
Sure. He should just play for the veteran minimum, because hey, his AVERAGES suck.

So I guess there is no salary that is between $9 million and the veteran minimum.  I had no idea.  Post of the year, kozlodev.  Your sarcasm here doesn't even make sense.  Do you even know what the veteran minimum is?  Do you know that we have multiple players that make less than $9 million and more than the veteran minimum?

I'd love to be an agent negotating with you.  As long as my player is better than the league minimum, you'd give me $9 million?  I didn't know Ernie Grunfeld (or Billy King?)posted on CelticsBlog.
I'd love to play this game with you. So what do you think is the going rate of starting forwards similar to Green in skill level? Some examples won't hurt.

I'll even give you a joker: here are some active players whose careers resemble Jeff Green's: Ersan Ilyasova, Danilo Gallinari, Taj Gibson. Why don't you check what they're signed for, and we can talk.

10 and 3. "skill level" wont change that, only better play.

Given playing time, he could easily, I repeat easily score 20ppg

Hard to average 20 when you can't accomplish it in a single game, which he hasn't yet this year.

Jeff green is averaging 24 minutes a game...

Is your idea of him proving his worth at 9mill/per that he scores a point per minute off the bench?

Not many guys score a point per minute, and the ones that come close are payed a whole bunch more than 9 million.

I'm not the one that argued he should average 20ppg, I'm the one who pointed out he hasn't done it even once in a game yet this year. For a guy who doesn't do much else well, Green's dollar earned per point scored absolutely sucks. Again, Webster, Brewer, Barnes and Dunleavy are all examples of guys scoring and rebounding better than Green as back-up SFs in almost precisely the same number of minutes per game for a fraction of the price.

Does Green have more potential than most of those guys? Sure. Is he "earning his paycheck"? Not yet.

Martell webster is a career 8 point 3 rebound player at a poor FG%.

Corey brewer is a career 9 point 3 rebound player at a poor FG%, who's numbers also benefit greatly from being on a massively run and gun outfit.

Matt barnes is a career 7 point 4 rebound player with an average FG%. He plays with the best point guard in the league.

Not even going to bother with dunleavy's stats as he has the toughness of my baby cousin and cant defend a stationary sack of oranges.

Two of those guys would not even see time for doc rivers. And green is considerably more talented and useful as an all-round player than the other two.

Nonetheless, all of them are as or more productive in the same minutes (and at better shooting percentages) than Green. So that doesn't say much about Green earning that money just yet, particularly when not one of them makes half what Green does.

Or maybe the question in the title of the thread has been forgotten?

I'm telling you that green is a considerably more talented player than those you have mentioned, and would absolutely wipe the floor with a couple of them, and you're saying "sure, but their numbers are stronger this season right now."

Green deserves more money because he is a better player. It's pretty simple.


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Offline kozlodoev

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Re: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?
« Reply #65 on: February 16, 2013, 10:26:19 AM »
Nonetheless, all of them are as or more productive in the same minutes (and at better shooting percentages) than Green. So that doesn't say much about Green earning that money just yet, particularly when not one of them makes half what Green does.
No, not really.

Webster and Barnes have never been as productive on a per-minute basis as Green. Corey Brewer has never played more than 20 minutes a game. Neither of them have ever started or played major minutes in the starting lineup of a winning team.

Oh, and also, neither of them is coming off of heart surgery. I know it's very convenient to discuss Jeff Green in the context of his overall season contribution -- but when people say "starting to earn", they really mean what we're seeing in recent weeks.

This "argument" is so patently knee-jerk it's unbelievable that it drew as much discussion as it did.
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Offline Snakehead

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Re: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?
« Reply #66 on: February 16, 2013, 10:36:04 AM »
You're pretty far out there on this one, boss.

I'd recommend taking a look at minutes, ppg, fg%, rpg, apg, and any other particulars of mike dunleavy, martell webster, matt barnes, corey brewer and jeff green -- all very similar, though Green is bringing up the rear in the bunch. Then look at the length and size of their contracts.

Antagonism won't make you correct.
Mike Dunleavy was signed to a Jeff Green type of contract when he was Jeff Green's age (coincidentally, he also performed more or less similarly to what you may expect from Jeff Green when he's no longer our second best player's backup).

You're really not very good at this game  ;D

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dunlemi02.html

One team's mistakes don't justify those of others. Referring to how much Duvleavy was overpaid then, or how much Ilyasova is now, won't mean there aren't dozens of examples of far more productive players making less, nor will it mean you have a stong argument for Jeff Green's value. And it certainly won't remove the egg from your face in this discussion.

If he can show you all these examples of players making that same range of money for similar numbers, THEN HE IS NOT OVERPAID.

If there is precedent in the market for that pay for that production, then it isn't a situation where the player is being overpaid.  I don't get what is so hard to understand.  The market sets its own prices.

When people talk about players being overpaid, it's as if they have some imaginary scale that they set up in their head they are comparing against.  How about we look at the realities of the market?


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Online LooseCannon

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Re: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?
« Reply #67 on: February 16, 2013, 10:38:03 AM »
If he can show you all these examples of players making that same range of money for similar numbers, THEN HE IS NOT OVERPAID.

If there is precedent in the market for that pay for that production, then it isn't a situation where the player is being overpaid.  I don't get what is so hard to understand.  The market sets its own prices.

Sometimes the market sets a bad price.
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Offline Snakehead

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Re: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?
« Reply #68 on: February 16, 2013, 10:40:45 AM »
If he can show you all these examples of players making that same range of money for similar numbers, THEN HE IS NOT OVERPAID.

If there is precedent in the market for that pay for that production, then it isn't a situation where the player is being overpaid.  I don't get what is so hard to understand.  The market sets its own prices.

Sometimes the market sets a bad price.

A bad price for a certain team?  Sure.

And a bad price for a certain player?  Sure.

But if we can find all these similar players making similar money, then that is just the market price.

It's the same with big men, any big man who isn't a star making 10 million or so gets called overpaid by everyone.  Yet there are many of these players at this pay range now.  So it's just the market.

Maybe you don't want to pay that, so you make your choice not to, like Ainge has and he tries to draft young bigs (like Fab) and get by with smaller bigs.  That's your decision as a GM. But if you want that 7 footer with that level of production, you are paying that price.  It's the established price on the market.

Batum makes the same money as Green, they signed their contracts in the same offseason and they have virtually the same production.  This isn't a coincidence.


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Offline ssspence

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Re: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?
« Reply #69 on: February 16, 2013, 02:50:07 PM »
If he can show you all these examples of players making that same range of money for similar numbers, THEN HE IS NOT OVERPAID.

If there is precedent in the market for that pay for that production, then it isn't a situation where the player is being overpaid.  I don't get what is so hard to understand.  The market sets its own prices.

Sometimes the market sets a bad price.

A bad price for a certain team?  Sure.

And a bad price for a certain player?  Sure.

But if we can find all these similar players making similar money, then that is just the market price.

It's the same with big men, any big man who isn't a star making 10 million or so gets called overpaid by everyone.  Yet there are many of these players at this pay range now.  So it's just the market.

Maybe you don't want to pay that, so you make your choice not to, like Ainge has and he tries to draft young bigs (like Fab) and get by with smaller bigs.  That's your decision as a GM. But if you want that 7 footer with that level of production, you are paying that price.  It's the established price on the market.

Batum makes the same money as Green, they signed their contracts in the same offseason and they have virtually the same production.  This isn't a coincidence.

Gentlemen, this is bording on ridiculous. The 'egg on face' poster compared Green to Taj Gibson, whose game has absolutely nothing to do with Green's; Danillo Gallinari, who leads his team in scoring and nearly doubles up Green in most major categories, and Ilyasova. So basically we're comparing Green to one guy -- Ilyasova -- a classic fluke rule guy who to anyone with two eyes is also guaranteed too much money for too long.

Instead of this absurd rationalization about 'the market' through selective choice of a few arbitrary players, look at Green's peers, just as I did above. They demonstrate that Green is -- thus far -- overpriced.

Offline CelticConcourse

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Re: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?
« Reply #70 on: February 16, 2013, 02:51:44 PM »
If he can show you all these examples of players making that same range of money for similar numbers, THEN HE IS NOT OVERPAID.

If there is precedent in the market for that pay for that production, then it isn't a situation where the player is being overpaid.  I don't get what is so hard to understand.  The market sets its own prices.

Sometimes the market sets a bad price.
Well then you pay the bad price. Market determines price in America and the NBA
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Offline Snakehead

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Re: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?
« Reply #71 on: February 16, 2013, 02:54:45 PM »
If he can show you all these examples of players making that same range of money for similar numbers, THEN HE IS NOT OVERPAID.

If there is precedent in the market for that pay for that production, then it isn't a situation where the player is being overpaid.  I don't get what is so hard to understand.  The market sets its own prices.

Sometimes the market sets a bad price.

A bad price for a certain team?  Sure.

And a bad price for a certain player?  Sure.

But if we can find all these similar players making similar money, then that is just the market price.

It's the same with big men, any big man who isn't a star making 10 million or so gets called overpaid by everyone.  Yet there are many of these players at this pay range now.  So it's just the market.

Maybe you don't want to pay that, so you make your choice not to, like Ainge has and he tries to draft young bigs (like Fab) and get by with smaller bigs.  That's your decision as a GM. But if you want that 7 footer with that level of production, you are paying that price.  It's the established price on the market.

Batum makes the same money as Green, they signed their contracts in the same offseason and they have virtually the same production.  This isn't a coincidence.

Gentlemen, this is bording on ridiculous. The 'egg on face' poster compared Green to Taj Gibson, whose game has absolutely nothing to do with Green's; Danillo Gallinari, who leads his team in scoring and nearly doubles up Green in most major categories, and Ilyasova. So basically we're comparing Green to one guy -- Ilyasova -- a classic fluke rule guy who to anyone with two eyes is also guaranteed too much money for too long.

Instead of this absurd rationalization about 'the market' through selective choice of a few arbitrary players, look at Green's peers, just as I did above. They demonstrate that Green is -- thus far -- overpriced.

You think a market setting prices is "absurd"?  I think you should study economics.  That's how these things work.  The salaries are not just made up.  If we could pay Jeff Green $5 mill per we would.  The market dictates price.

And why did you ignore the best comparison?  As I put forth, that is Batum.  They have almost identical numbers, age range, and signed the same off season.

It's really funny here you say my justification was absurd, then you just use different comparisons with players to state your angle... what are you getting at?  That makes no sense.


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Offline LarBrd33

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Re: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?
« Reply #72 on: February 16, 2013, 02:56:15 PM »
Jeff Green's per-minute averages are about even with what they have always been.  Really, he's pretty darn consistent.  The difference is that in OKC he was averaging 37 minutes and in Boston he's averaging 25 minutes.   At no point has my opinion of Jeff ever changed.  I feel the same way about him now as I did at the start of the season... as I did last season... as I did when he played for OKC... as I did when he was a rookie in Seattle.

He's a guy who if he was the 1st or 2nd option, he could come close to scoring 20 points a night (probably on a lotto team).  At most he'll be a fringe allstar.  Someone who could give you a season averaging 19 points, 6 rebounds, 1 block and a steal.  Probably will never make an actual allstar game, though.  He's a solid player who should be starting.  Unfortunately, he plays the same position as our 2nd best player and there's no way he'll just start getting 37 minutes a night unless he plays out of position or we trade Pierce.

As far as earning his paycheck... his pay is close to appropriate for how he plays.  His role isn't appropriate though.  You don't pay a backup SF 9 million a year.  But Jeff Green is a starting SF playing backup.

Offline ssspence

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Re: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?
« Reply #73 on: February 16, 2013, 02:59:12 PM »
His numbers for the year are now up to exactly his career averages

OMG. Can we stop bringing up his career averages? Jesus Christ. His career averages and his potential deserve 9 mil

No they don't.
Sure. He should just play for the veteran minimum, because hey, his AVERAGES suck.

So I guess there is no salary that is between $9 million and the veteran minimum.  I had no idea.  Post of the year, kozlodev.  Your sarcasm here doesn't even make sense.  Do you even know what the veteran minimum is?  Do you know that we have multiple players that make less than $9 million and more than the veteran minimum?

I'd love to be an agent negotating with you.  As long as my player is better than the league minimum, you'd give me $9 million?  I didn't know Ernie Grunfeld (or Billy King?)posted on CelticsBlog.
I'd love to play this game with you. So what do you think is the going rate of starting forwards similar to Green in skill level? Some examples won't hurt.

I'll even give you a joker: here are some active players whose careers resemble Jeff Green's: Ersan Ilyasova, Danilo Gallinari, Taj Gibson. Why don't you check what they're signed for, and we can talk.

10 and 3. "skill level" wont change that, only better play.

Given playing time, he could easily, I repeat easily score 20ppg

Hard to average 20 when you can't accomplish it in a single game, which he hasn't yet this year.

Jeff green is averaging 24 minutes a game...

Is your idea of him proving his worth at 9mill/per that he scores a point per minute off the bench?

Not many guys score a point per minute, and the ones that come close are payed a whole bunch more than 9 million.

I'm not the one that argued he should average 20ppg, I'm the one who pointed out he hasn't done it even once in a game yet this year. For a guy who doesn't do much else well, Green's dollar earned per point scored absolutely sucks. Again, Webster, Brewer, Barnes and Dunleavy are all examples of guys scoring and rebounding better than Green as back-up SFs in almost precisely the same number of minutes per game for a fraction of the price.

Does Green have more potential than most of those guys? Sure. Is he "earning his paycheck"? Not yet.

Martell webster is a career 8 point 3 rebound player at a poor FG%.

Corey brewer is a career 9 point 3 rebound player at a poor FG%, who's numbers also benefit greatly from being on a massively run and gun outfit.

Matt barnes is a career 7 point 4 rebound player with an average FG%. He plays with the best point guard in the league.

Not even going to bother with dunleavy's stats as he has the toughness of my baby cousin and cant defend a stationary sack of oranges.

Two of those guys would not even see time for doc rivers. And green is considerably more talented and useful as an all-round player than the other two.

Nonetheless, all of them are as or more productive in the same minutes (and at better shooting percentages) than Green. So that doesn't say much about Green earning that money just yet, particularly when not one of them makes half what Green does.

Or maybe the question in the title of the thread has been forgotten?

I'm telling you that green is a considerably more talented player than those you have mentioned, and would absolutely wipe the floor with a couple of them, and you're saying "sure, but their numbers are stronger this season right now."

Green deserves more money because he is a better player. It's pretty simple.

Awesome. Next time I want to be paid twice what my peers are, I'll just tell my boss I'm considerably more talented and "better" than they are -- that i can wipe the floor with them, if you will -- regardless of what the hard data about my work demonstrates. Hopefully it will work for me as well as it has Green!

« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 03:16:44 PM by ssspence »

Offline CelticConcourse

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Re: Is Green starting to earn his paycheck?
« Reply #74 on: February 16, 2013, 03:00:27 PM »
Jeff Green's per-minute averages are about even with what they have always been.  Really, he's pretty darn consistent.  The difference is that in OKC he was averaging 37 minutes and in Boston he's averaging 25 minutes.   At no point has my opinion of Jeff ever changed.  I feel the same way about him now as I did at the start of the season... as I did last season... as I did when he played for OKC... as I did when he was a rookie in Seattle.

He's a guy who if he was the 1st or 2nd option, he could come close to scoring 20 points a night (probably on a lotto team).  At most he'll be a fringe allstar.  Someone who could give you a season averaging 19 points, 6 rebounds, 1 block and a steal.  Probably will never make an actual allstar game, though.  He's a solid player who should be starting.  Unfortunately, he plays the same position as our 2nd best player and there's no way he'll just start getting 37 minutes a night unless he plays out of position or we trade Pierce.

Yep. Fringe All-Star is where I've got him
Jeff Green - Top 5 SF

[Kevin Garnett]
"I've always said J. Green is going to be one of the best players to ever play this game"

 

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