Author Topic: Pick 2: Draft Order (order for Coaches round posted on pg 204)  (Read 130800 times)

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Re: Pick 2: Draft Order for teams and picks
« Reply #810 on: February 17, 2013, 06:53:23 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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So that you new guys know, it is an unwritten rule during these drafts not to talk about players that haven't been drafted or picked.

Fair enough, makes sense.

I could easily see people trying to intentionally play down a players value to cause them to fall in the draft.  Or on the other hand, talk up a players value, tricking someone else into drafting a player too soon.

A little underhanded I suppose.

The tricky thing about playing down a player's value is that eventually, you might end up having to defend them. So if you play down a player's value (like for instance, if this draft were competitive, and I faced the Sixers in the first round of the playoffs with a team built around Kyrie Irving as its best player, I'd be pretty screwed.*


*For those new or forgetful, I dramatically played up Jrue Holiday's seemingly superman-like ability to defend Kyrie Irving this past summer in the CB Draft.

Then you better hold on to Tristian Thompson....

I'm a hundred percent sincere on Thompson. I think he's got a real chance at being a 16 and 10 guy on a good team, dirty-work kinda guy. I don't think he's got a chance to be a top 3 positional guy or anything, at least without a jumpshot that gets above 40% from 15 feet.

But look at this:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=thomptr01&y1=2013&p2=farieke01&y2=2013

Pretty close.

Very close but Faried has the FG% and an image of a workhouse and a flat out animal that puts him further over the top
Not to mention the stats being compared have no context. Faried is on a contender doing what he is doing, Thompson is on one of the worst teams in the league. Faried is one of the more limited offensive players and worse defensive players in the league and yet Thompson numbers are worse in those areas.

They are both young and have time to develop but I think Thompson is getting a bit of Jeff Green hype here. Big numbers on a bad team doesn't always equate to the same thing when put on good teams.

The numbers are close though.

Absolutely fair. Its too early to give the verdict on either guy, and caution is completely warranted when giving praise to any player on a rebuilding team.

The stats also don't really tell the whole story for Thompson there though either. If you look at how he's stepped up after (undrafted player) went down, his numbers are actually better scoring-wise (52.6% from the field, 55.5 TS%,  14.9 pts).

Thompson is getting his points through hustle, tough offensive rebounding, and elite level finishing around the rim. His defense and rebounding are both looking very, very good considering his age, and there is cause to think it can get better.

That's why I'm optimistic. He's finally caught his wave, so now he's riding it. That's why I'm hopeful. Can he do it on a contender? Who knows.
I love the way he has picked up his game since (undrafted player) went down. Very impressive.

I feel for you IP because if you didn't have to pick him, and given the state of the Cleveland team, you really did HAVE to pick him, he probably doesn't get picked until the 3rd round or later here.

I think the third round is a bit too late. If it went down like that..yikes. He's got the 14th best rebounding rate among 4's, 15th best PER among starting 4's, and the 15th best EWA among all power forwards. And that's factoring in his entire year, which started pretty slow. If a guy who is getting 15 and 10 over the last 2 months makes it to the 3rd round (which is really the 5th round), we're all doing something wrong.

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Re: Pick 2: Draft Order for teams and picks
« Reply #811 on: February 17, 2013, 06:55:19 PM »

Offline StartOrien

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You know last year I had Cleveland and picked Kyrie and Varejao and at the time, AV just went down for the season, but Cleveland had no one else worth picking.

Its not easy having a team where one of your picked players isn't even amongst the top 60 players in the league. You start off with a fairly decent handicap. For that reason I am not a big fan of the salary cap since many of these teams that have less than stellar second players also have the lowest cap to work with.

Then again this isn't a competitive exercise but still, it makes it tougher for 6-8 teams in the league.

At the same time, I think it gives teams another option.

Let's use IP as an example:

He's got one superstar, one young player, and a pick in each round that probably prevents him from getting another elite player by traditional means.

An option for him is to build around Irving and keep his salary number down for the future. Salary gives him another way to 'win' the exercise.
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Re: Pick 2: Draft Order for teams and picks
« Reply #812 on: February 17, 2013, 07:01:40 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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You know last year I had Cleveland and picked Kyrie and Varejao and at the time, AV just went down for the season, but Cleveland had no one else worth picking.

Its not easy having a team where one of your picked players isn't even amongst the top 60 players in the league. You start off with a fairly decent handicap. For that reason I am not a big fan of the salary cap since many of these teams that have less than stellar second players also have the lowest cap to work with.

Then again this isn't a competitive exercise but still, it makes it tougher for 6-8 teams in the league.

At the same time, I think it gives teams another option.

Let's use IP as an example:

He's got one superstar, one young player, and a pick in each round that probably prevents him from getting another elite player by traditional means.

An option for him is to build around Irving and keep his salary number down for the future. Salary gives him another way to 'win' the exercise.

WEnt out, got Andrew Bynum. Shoot for the moon, you'll land among the stars.

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Re: Pick 2: Draft Order for teams and picks
« Reply #813 on: February 17, 2013, 07:10:35 PM »

Offline StartOrien

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You know last year I had Cleveland and picked Kyrie and Varejao and at the time, AV just went down for the season, but Cleveland had no one else worth picking.

Its not easy having a team where one of your picked players isn't even amongst the top 60 players in the league. You start off with a fairly decent handicap. For that reason I am not a big fan of the salary cap since many of these teams that have less than stellar second players also have the lowest cap to work with.

Then again this isn't a competitive exercise but still, it makes it tougher for 6-8 teams in the league.

At the same time, I think it gives teams another option.

Let's use IP as an example:

He's got one superstar, one young player, and a pick in each round that probably prevents him from getting another elite player by traditional means.

An option for him is to build around Irving and keep his salary number down for the future. Salary gives him another way to 'win' the exercise.

WEnt out, got Andrew Bynum. Shoot for the moon, you'll land among the stars.

-JD & The Straight Shot
TV Show Draft:
Property Bothers, Kitt form Knight Rider, Caroline Holden (Yasmine Bleeth)
Coach Eric Taylor, Gene Parmesan, Ron Swanson
"The Real Deal" Bill McNeil, Golddust

Re: Pick 2: Draft Order for teams and picks
« Reply #814 on: February 17, 2013, 07:13:53 PM »

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So that you new guys know, it is an unwritten rule during these drafts not to talk about players that haven't been drafted or picked.

Fair enough, makes sense.

I could easily see people trying to intentionally play down a players value to cause them to fall in the draft.  Or on the other hand, talk up a players value, tricking someone else into drafting a player too soon.

A little underhanded I suppose.

The tricky thing about playing down a player's value is that eventually, you might end up having to defend them. So if you play down a player's value (like for instance, if this draft were competitive, and I faced the Sixers in the first round of the playoffs with a team built around Kyrie Irving as its best player, I'd be pretty screwed.*


*For those new or forgetful, I dramatically played up Jrue Holiday's seemingly superman-like ability to defend Kyrie Irving this past summer in the CB Draft.

Then you better hold on to Tristian Thompson....

I'm a hundred percent sincere on Thompson. I think he's got a real chance at being a 16 and 10 guy on a good team, dirty-work kinda guy. I don't think he's got a chance to be a top 3 positional guy or anything, at least without a jumpshot that gets above 40% from 15 feet.

But look at this:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=thomptr01&y1=2013&p2=farieke01&y2=2013

Pretty close.

Very close but Faried has the FG% and an image of a workhouse and a flat out animal that puts him further over the top
Not to mention the stats being compared have no context. Faried is on a contender doing what he is doing, Thompson is on one of the worst teams in the league. Faried is one of the more limited offensive players and worse defensive players in the league and yet Thompson numbers are worse in those areas.

They are both young and have time to develop but I think Thompson is getting a bit of Jeff Green hype here. Big numbers on a bad team doesn't always equate to the same thing when put on good teams.

The numbers are close though.

Absolutely fair. Its too early to give the verdict on either guy, and caution is completely warranted when giving praise to any player on a rebuilding team.

The stats also don't really tell the whole story for Thompson there though either. If you look at how he's stepped up after (undrafted player) went down, his numbers are actually better scoring-wise (52.6% from the field, 55.5 TS%,  14.9 pts).

Thompson is getting his points through hustle, tough offensive rebounding, and elite level finishing around the rim. His defense and rebounding are both looking very, very good considering his age, and there is cause to think it can get better.

That's why I'm optimistic. He's finally caught his wave, so now he's riding it. That's why I'm hopeful. Can he do it on a contender? Who knows.
I love the way he has picked up his game since (undrafted player) went down. Very impressive.

I feel for you IP because if you didn't have to pick him, and given the state of the Cleveland team, you really did HAVE to pick him, he probably doesn't get picked until the 3rd round or later here.

I think the third round is a bit too late. If it went down like that..yikes. He's got the 14th best rebounding rate among 4's, 15th best PER among starting 4's, and the 15th best EWA among all power forwards. And that's factoring in his entire year, which started pretty slow. If a guy who is getting 15 and 10 over the last 2 months makes it to the 3rd round (which is really the 5th round), we're all doing something wrong.
So statistically, he's what you would consider around the 15th best PF. Let's be real. He isn't.

Still let's say he is.

Top 15 players at each position X 5 positions = 75 players.

Only 56 can be saved. Of those 56 there's probably 10 minimum(not including Thompson) that don't belong in the top 75 players.

That means 46 of the top 75 players were chosen leaving 29. If all those players are chosen ahead of Thompson, like they should be, then the best Thompson should be drafted would be top of the 2nd round.

I don't see that.

Name recognition, age, lack of experience, lack of decent sample size of quality performance,and horrible offensive inefficiency probably make him more what I thought: a 3rd rounder at best.

Now, if he does this the rest of the year and into next, I'll buy he's a top 100 or so player.

Re: Pick 2: Draft Order for teams and picks
« Reply #815 on: February 17, 2013, 07:26:35 PM »

Offline StartOrien

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I got 33 guys ahead of Thompson at PF
TV Show Draft:
Property Bothers, Kitt form Knight Rider, Caroline Holden (Yasmine Bleeth)
Coach Eric Taylor, Gene Parmesan, Ron Swanson
"The Real Deal" Bill McNeil, Golddust

Re: Pick 2: Draft Order for teams and picks
« Reply #816 on: February 17, 2013, 07:29:00 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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So that you new guys know, it is an unwritten rule during these drafts not to talk about players that haven't been drafted or picked.

Fair enough, makes sense.

I could easily see people trying to intentionally play down a players value to cause them to fall in the draft.  Or on the other hand, talk up a players value, tricking someone else into drafting a player too soon.

A little underhanded I suppose.

The tricky thing about playing down a player's value is that eventually, you might end up having to defend them. So if you play down a player's value (like for instance, if this draft were competitive, and I faced the Sixers in the first round of the playoffs with a team built around Kyrie Irving as its best player, I'd be pretty screwed.*


*For those new or forgetful, I dramatically played up Jrue Holiday's seemingly superman-like ability to defend Kyrie Irving this past summer in the CB Draft.

Then you better hold on to Tristian Thompson....

I'm a hundred percent sincere on Thompson. I think he's got a real chance at being a 16 and 10 guy on a good team, dirty-work kinda guy. I don't think he's got a chance to be a top 3 positional guy or anything, at least without a jumpshot that gets above 40% from 15 feet.

But look at this:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=thomptr01&y1=2013&p2=farieke01&y2=2013

Pretty close.

Very close but Faried has the FG% and an image of a workhouse and a flat out animal that puts him further over the top
Not to mention the stats being compared have no context. Faried is on a contender doing what he is doing, Thompson is on one of the worst teams in the league. Faried is one of the more limited offensive players and worse defensive players in the league and yet Thompson numbers are worse in those areas.

They are both young and have time to develop but I think Thompson is getting a bit of Jeff Green hype here. Big numbers on a bad team doesn't always equate to the same thing when put on good teams.

The numbers are close though.

Absolutely fair. Its too early to give the verdict on either guy, and caution is completely warranted when giving praise to any player on a rebuilding team.

The stats also don't really tell the whole story for Thompson there though either. If you look at how he's stepped up after (undrafted player) went down, his numbers are actually better scoring-wise (52.6% from the field, 55.5 TS%,  14.9 pts).

Thompson is getting his points through hustle, tough offensive rebounding, and elite level finishing around the rim. His defense and rebounding are both looking very, very good considering his age, and there is cause to think it can get better.

That's why I'm optimistic. He's finally caught his wave, so now he's riding it. That's why I'm hopeful. Can he do it on a contender? Who knows.
I love the way he has picked up his game since (undrafted player) went down. Very impressive.

I feel for you IP because if you didn't have to pick him, and given the state of the Cleveland team, you really did HAVE to pick him, he probably doesn't get picked until the 3rd round or later here.

I think the third round is a bit too late. If it went down like that..yikes. He's got the 14th best rebounding rate among 4's, 15th best PER among starting 4's, and the 15th best EWA among all power forwards. And that's factoring in his entire year, which started pretty slow. If a guy who is getting 15 and 10 over the last 2 months makes it to the 3rd round (which is really the 5th round), we're all doing something wrong.
So statistically, he's what you would consider around the 15th best PF. Let's be real. He isn't.

Still let's say he is.

Top 15 players at each position X 5 positions = 75 players.

Only 56 can be saved. Of those 56 there's probably 10 minimum(not including Thompson) that don't belong in the top 75 players.

That means 46 of the top 75 players were chosen leaving 29. If all those players are chosen ahead of Thompson, like they should be, then the best Thompson should be drafted would be top of the 2nd round.

I don't see that.

Name recognition, age, lack of experience, lack of decent sample size of quality performance,and horrible offensive inefficiency probably make him more what I thought: a 3rd rounder at best.

Now, if he does this the rest of the year and into next, I'll buy he's a top 100 or so player.

Horrible offensive inefficiency? Based on what kimosbe?

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Re: Pick 2: Draft Order for teams and picks
« Reply #817 on: February 17, 2013, 07:32:15 PM »

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I got 33 guys ahead of Thompson at PF
I would have 25 ahead of him, another 5-6 on the exact same level as Thompson.

Re: Pick 2: Draft Order for teams and picks
« Reply #818 on: February 17, 2013, 07:40:15 PM »

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Horrible offensive inefficiency? Based on what kimosbe?
How about a TS% below 50% for his career before that guy that got hurt went down? How about a FG% below 46% before that guy went down? How about a career FT% of 60%?

Anyone else want to label that horrible offensive efficiency for a 6'9" PF? He's a PF that takes nearly 10 shots a game to average 11 points!!!

Re: Pick 2: Draft Order for teams and picks
« Reply #819 on: February 17, 2013, 07:44:16 PM »

Offline StartOrien

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Horrible offensive inefficiency? Based on what kimosbe?
How about a TS% below 50% for his career before that guy that got hurt went down? How about a FG% below 46% before that guy went down? How about a career FT% of 60%?

Anyone else want to label that horrible offensive efficiency for a 6'9" PF? He's a PF that takes nearly 10 shots a game to average 11 points!!!

Get eeeeeemmmm
TV Show Draft:
Property Bothers, Kitt form Knight Rider, Caroline Holden (Yasmine Bleeth)
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"The Real Deal" Bill McNeil, Golddust

Re: Pick 2: Draft Order for teams and picks
« Reply #820 on: February 17, 2013, 08:07:33 PM »

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I got 33 guys ahead of Thompson at PF
I would have 25 ahead of him, another 5-6 on the exact same level as Thompson.

I have Thompson as a liability as a starting PF in all but a few situations, or, as a middle of the pack backup PF if used off the bench. 

I don't think Thompson would play well with Bynum. His scoring numbers have gone up lately because he plays with a jump-shooting center freeing up space in the paint for Thompson as a finisher. Take away that space and make him play more time 10-15 feet from the basket and his scoring efficiency will go back down again. Spacing is going to be difficult for the team as a whole with those two on the floor together.

I would bench him (15mpg backup) or trade him.

Re: Pick 2: Draft Order for teams and picks
« Reply #821 on: February 17, 2013, 08:16:54 PM »

Offline airbelinelli

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Things have gotten eerily quiet on the boards... Big things in the works or everyone willing to hold out until tomorrows picks??

Re: Pick 2: Draft Order for teams and picks
« Reply #822 on: February 17, 2013, 08:21:24 PM »

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I got 33 guys ahead of Thompson at PF
I would have 25 ahead of him, another 5-6 on the exact same level as Thompson.

I have Thompson as a liability as a starting PF in all but a few situations, or, as a middle of the pack backup PF if used off the bench. 

I don't think Thompson would play well with Bynum. His scoring numbers have gone up lately because he plays with a jump-shooting center freeing up space in the paint for Thompson as a finisher. Take away that space and make him play more time 10-15 feet from the basket and his scoring efficiency will go back down again. Spacing is going to be difficult for the team as a whole with those two on the floor together.

I would bench him (15mpg backup) or trade him.
Yeah, I wasn't even considering what having others around him would do to his play. I agree that he isn't a good match with Bynum. He would match up much better with a KG type, strong inside defensively but a stretch big on offense.

I was actually discussing a trade for a young PF that rebounds well and has mostly inside offensive game and then considered he probably would be a bad match for Howard and pulled out.

Although, having Irving, one of the two or three best overall shooters in the game, as a PG really mitigates having to have a stretch 4 next to Bynum for spacing, as defenses would have to guard against Irving walking up and taking a bunch of open jumpers if they closed in on the bigs. Its possible to have two down low offensive guys if you have good shooters in your three other positions and Irving at PG is probably the best shooting PG you can find.

Re: Pick 2: Draft Order for teams and picks
« Reply #823 on: February 17, 2013, 08:29:37 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Horrible offensive inefficiency? Based on what kimosbe?
How about a TS% below 50% for his career before that guy that got hurt went down? How about a FG% below 46% before that guy went down? How about a career FT% of 60%?

Anyone else want to label that horrible offensive efficiency for a 6'9" PF? He's a PF that takes nearly 10 shots a game to average 11 points!!!

Ha. So you're excluding all the games where the team demanded that he step up his level of play and elevate his game.

Hmmm...now I see the type of analysis that led you to trade for Deron Williams and keep Howard over Kobe..

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Re: Pick 2: Draft Order for teams and picks
« Reply #824 on: February 17, 2013, 08:34:50 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Hmmm...now I see the type of analysis that led you to trade for Deron Williams and keep Howard over Kobe..

The knives are out...


D. Cousins / F. Ezeli / P. Antic
D. West / R. Anderson / C. Copeland
L. Deng / V. Carter / D. Rudez
A. Iguodala / M. Ginobil / B. Gordon
K. Irving / S. Livingston / S. Blake

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