Author Topic: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead  (Read 2809 times)

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Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2013, 02:36:35 PM »

Online Eddie20

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  "Jumpy officers guarding one of his targets in Torrance on Thursday shot and injured two women delivering newspapers because they mistook their pickup truck for Dorner's."

  Yikes.

They also shot a third person later for driving a truck in the same spot.  Thing is, neither truck really resembled Dorner's, other than being a truck.  Dorner had a grey Titan - here's the truck the two women had:



To be fair, the likelihood of him operating his registered vehicle while being sought out in state wide manhunt is extremely remote.  Hence as to why he was in a stolen car.

And in the photo of the shot up vehicle you simply can't see inside due to darkened tints. I wasn't there to say why the officers shot, but when given the totality of the facts I would doubt if you, Monday morning QB, would calmly have walked up to the vehicle like it was a Sunday stroll in the park.

Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2013, 02:45:50 PM »

Online slamtheking

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  "Jumpy officers guarding one of his targets in Torrance on Thursday shot and injured two women delivering newspapers because they mistook their pickup truck for Dorner's."

  Yikes.

They also shot a third person later for driving a truck in the same spot.  Thing is, neither truck really resembled Dorner's, other than being a truck.  Dorner had a grey Titan - here's the truck the two women had:



  That's quite a few bullets, too bad those guys didn't have a rocket launcher or something. And is it a little odd that the bullet holes are in the back of the truck? Where were they guarding the family from?

Don't know specifics but my guess is they were in a concealed position, came out fast behind the truck, maybe the driver panicked and started to take off so they shot it up good.  Very fortunate those women are still alive because that looks like a pretty vicious mix of incompetence and overkill.

Judging by the number of bullet holes visible, overkill certainly is an apt term in this situation.  Yikes.

This is unbelievable.
lawyers must be lined up around the block to represent those women in what would appear to be a real slam-dunk case.  Cops firing that barrage of bullets not only at the wrong vehicle, but the wrong number of people in it, wrong gender and people actually performing a visible, legitimate act in the area (delivering papers).  Why bother to find out who your shooting at first or even bother to try to detain them before shooting?  not with the good old LAPD. 

7-figure settlement apiece at least.

Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2013, 02:59:40 PM »

Offline foulweatherfan

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  "Jumpy officers guarding one of his targets in Torrance on Thursday shot and injured two women delivering newspapers because they mistook their pickup truck for Dorner's."

  Yikes.

They also shot a third person later for driving a truck in the same spot.  Thing is, neither truck really resembled Dorner's, other than being a truck.  Dorner had a grey Titan - here's the truck the two women had:



To be fair, the likelihood of him operating his registered vehicle while being sought out in state wide manhunt is extremely remote.  Hence as to why he was in a stolen car.

Except that shortly after this incident they found Dorner's burned-out truck, in the area where he was eventually apprehended.  So perhaps the odds were not as remote as you're categorically stating them to be.  Not to mention the police specifically cited the similarity of the vehicle as a rationale for firing.

Quote
And in the photo of the shot up vehicle you simply can't see inside due to darkened tints. I wasn't there to say why the officers shot, but when given the totality of the facts I would doubt if you, Monday morning QB, would calmly have walked up to the vehicle like it was a Sunday stroll in the park.

I'd say there's a pretty robust middle ground between "calmly walk up to the vehicle whistling a merry tune" and "fire dozens of rounds into a vehicle with no positive ID and no indication of threat other than stopping near the residence of a police officer".  Especially considering they did the same thing again shortly later in the same area.

It's certainly possible there were unreported circumstances that mitigated this, but they would have to be pretty extraordinary to consider this an appropriate response by the police, and simply assuming they were present is just Monday morning quarterbacking in the opposite direction.

Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2013, 03:24:34 PM »

Online Eddie20

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  "Jumpy officers guarding one of his targets in Torrance on Thursday shot and injured two women delivering newspapers because they mistook their pickup truck for Dorner's."

  Yikes.

They also shot a third person later for driving a truck in the same spot.  Thing is, neither truck really resembled Dorner's, other than being a truck.  Dorner had a grey Titan - here's the truck the two women had:



To be fair, the likelihood of him operating his registered vehicle while being sought out in state wide manhunt is extremely remote.  Hence as to why he was in a stolen car.

Except that shortly after this incident they found Dorner's burned-out truck, in the area where he was eventually apprehended.  So perhaps the odds were not as remote as you're categorically stating them to be.  Not to mention the police specifically cited the similarity of the vehicle as a rationale for firing.

Quote
And in the photo of the shot up vehicle you simply can't see inside due to darkened tints. I wasn't there to say why the officers shot, but when given the totality of the facts I would doubt if you, Monday morning QB, would calmly have walked up to the vehicle like it was a Sunday stroll in the park.

I'd say there's a pretty robust middle ground between "calmly walk up to the vehicle whistling a merry tune" and "fire dozens of rounds into a vehicle with no positive ID and no indication of threat other than stopping near the residence of a police officer".  Especially considering they did the same thing again shortly later in the same area.

It's certainly possible there were unreported circumstances that mitigated this, but they would have to be pretty extraordinary to consider this an appropriate response by the police, and simply assuming they were present is just Monday morning quarterbacking in the opposite direction.

Finding his truck and him actually driving his truck are two different things. Tactically speaking that would be the worst thing he could do. So if he's an untrained idiot, without any sense of tactical training and/or experience, then yes he might be in his own vehicle. However, considering his experience in both military and law enforcement, it would be extremely remote.

I'm not Monday morning QB'ing the situation. I'm just saying that in this specific case there are factors that you didn't point out and factors that are still unknown. You stated that the vehicle didn't match, which was completely irrelevant.

And the "dozens of rounds" usually happens when multiple officers are involved in a shooting. It's almost an impossibility to differentiate where the rounds are coming from, so you often get a bunch of rounds fired.

Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2013, 03:30:39 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I'm not Monday morning QB'ing the situation. I'm just saying that in this specific case there are factors that you didn't point out and factors that are still unknown. You stated that the vehicle didn't match, which was completely irrelevant.

Is there any reasonable set of facts that could justify that many bullets being fired into a truck without a positive ID?

I'm sympathetic to the cops.  Working for LAPD is a high enough stress job already, without the ramped up tension of this manhunt.  If any reasonable office heard a report that the suspect may be heading my way, and then a truck approached without its headlines on, I'm sure they'd suspect the worst. 

However, this isn't the wild west.  Cops aren't supposed to shoot on sight.  They're not assassins, they're officers sworn to uphold the law.  Seven officers firing dozens of shots at a vehicle without knowing who is inside is the height of irresponsibility.


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Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2013, 03:49:29 PM »

Online Eddie20

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I'm not Monday morning QB'ing the situation. I'm just saying that in this specific case there are factors that you didn't point out and factors that are still unknown. You stated that the vehicle didn't match, which was completely irrelevant.

Is there any reasonable set of facts that could justify that many bullets being fired into a truck without a positive ID?

Absolutely.

Quote
Sources said the Los Angeles police detectives involved in the Torrance shooting were on protective detail for a police official named in the suspect's supposed manifesto, which was posted on what authorities believe is his Facebook page.

That's the background. I can also assure you they were likely in plain clothes and an unmarked vehicle where they have a clear vantage point of the residence. Vehicle drives slowly and subsequently stops at a couple of residences. In hindsight it's known that they're delivering papers, but at the moment you're probably thinking it's Dorner looking for the address. Not only is it dark (which I assume considering the hour of the day), but the windows are also tinted so you don't have a clear vantage point of the occupants.  Not certain if they approached in the vehicle, but I will say that if it were indeed Dorner it would be tactful to exit the vehicle and approach by foot rather than activate your lights and make Dorner aware of your presence. The element of surprise being key. So you approach and the delivery people are startled and make some sudden movement. 1 officer shoots, the other officer simply hearing shots, fires into the vehicle as well. End result is a bunch of rounds into a vehicle, but as long as the officers can articulate their actions they will be fine. At worst, the department, and the two detectives are sued civilly, which often results in an out of court settlement dependent on the demands of the plaintiffs.

Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2013, 03:51:23 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Ugh, great write up of crappy police work and how likely it is they won't be punished for it.

But hey the city will have a nice big insurance claim to deal with when they pay out a settlement/judgment.

Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2013, 04:10:01 PM »

Online blink

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Here's the story from the LA times:
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/feb/08/local/la-me-torrance-shooting-20130209

I live in orange county ca.  The manhunt story has been on basically 24/7 over the last day or so.  There hasn't been hardly any coverage about the mistaken identity shooting though.

I don't see what those two older hispanic ladies could have done to justify the gunfire into their vehicle.  I don't buy the "You stated that the vehicle didn't match, which was completely irrelevant." argument.  There are millions of autos in so cal, does that give the police the right to shoot up any of them they want? 

Yes, it was a edgy time for so cal law enforcement, but that doesn't mean you throw the law out the window and just start firing guns at people whose identity you haven't even confirmed yet.  This is the US.  It isn't a war zone.

Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2013, 04:13:11 PM »

Offline foulweatherfan

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To be fair, the likelihood of him operating his registered vehicle while being sought out in state wide manhunt is extremely remote.  Hence as to why he was in a stolen car.

Except that shortly after this incident they found Dorner's burned-out truck, in the area where he was eventually apprehended.  So perhaps the odds were not as remote as you're categorically stating them to be.  Not to mention the police specifically cited the similarity of the vehicle as a rationale for firing.

Quote
And in the photo of the shot up vehicle you simply can't see inside due to darkened tints. I wasn't there to say why the officers shot, but when given the totality of the facts I would doubt if you, Monday morning QB, would calmly have walked up to the vehicle like it was a Sunday stroll in the park.

I'd say there's a pretty robust middle ground between "calmly walk up to the vehicle whistling a merry tune" and "fire dozens of rounds into a vehicle with no positive ID and no indication of threat other than stopping near the residence of a police officer".  Especially considering they did the same thing again shortly later in the same area.

It's certainly possible there were unreported circumstances that mitigated this, but they would have to be pretty extraordinary to consider this an appropriate response by the police, and simply assuming they were present is just Monday morning quarterbacking in the opposite direction.

Finding his truck and him actually driving his truck are two different things. Tactically speaking that would be the worst thing he could do. So if he's an untrained idiot, without any sense of tactical training and/or experience, then yes he might be in his own vehicle. However, considering his experience in both military and law enforcement, it would be extremely remote.

Wait, are you arguing that his truck was found in Big Bear, he was (later) found in Big Bear, but he didn't drive his truck to Big Bear?  That seems extremely unlikely.  What's the tactical decision here - he towed his truck there to fool the police into searching for him where he was?

I'm not Monday morning QB'ing the situation. I'm just saying that in this specific case there are factors that you didn't point out and factors that are still unknown. You stated that the vehicle didn't match, which was completely irrelevant.

How is it completely irrelevant when the police specifically cited the similarity of the vehicle as their rationale for believing both of the trucks to be Dorner?

Quote
A team of Los Angeles police officers protecting the home of a high-ranking officer in the 19500 block of Redbeam Avenue believed a pickup truck that stopped in front of the house matched Dorner's blue Nissan Titan.

Quote
...at that point, a driver in another pickup truck that look similar to Dorner's drove toward them on Flagler Lane near Beryl Street.  Officers, suspecting it was Dorner, purposely collided with the truck and shot at him.

http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_22544264/police-suspecting-christopher-dorners-arrival-shoot-3-innocent
 
It sounds like you've independently decided Dorner must have abandoned his vehicle and are flatly denying all the evidence that he was actually in his truck, the police expected him to be in his truck, and they were, at that time, right to assume so. 

Like Roy, I'm sympathetic to the cops; it's a tough job on an ordinary day and this was no ordinary day.  Don't envy them being in that position one bit.  But that doesn't give them carte blanche to open fire on innocent people in multiple situations based on a superficial resemblance to the guy they were looking for. 

Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2013, 04:15:02 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Freaking unbeliebavble!

LAPD deserves every bad thing ever said about them.  This doesn't even seem like a incident where the indentity was mistaken.  The dang truck wasn't even the same color or make/model.  Incompetence in it's worst form is what this is.  Innocent people almost died as a result.

The Dorner guy got what he deserved, although I still think there is something going on under the surface with his alleged "cover-up" claims.  Again, the LAPD is widely know for being the most corrupt police department in the nation.  I think ther needs to be a real, and impartial investigation into what really went on, as it pertains to Dorner's dismissal.

 

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