Author Topic: The RONDO bashing has got to stop  (Read 4564 times)

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Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #75 on: February 11, 2013, 01:31:16 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Yes, it was. Our best offense *this year* (and it's not even close) was early in the year when Rondo was getting 13 assists a game. We were top 10 in efficiency and top 5 in efg% right before December. Let me know when the post-Rondo offense gets to that level, or maybe just explain further how our current offense is superior to that.
It has already gotten to that level. And beyond it.

And yes, our offense is superior: people actually get to touch the ball multiple times, which - believe it or not - leads to better shots.

Does it not trouble you that when our alleged team leader, who's allegedly one of top floor generals in the NBA goes down, goes down, three key rotation players coincidentally start playing better?

And it's not "playing-over-their-head" better, it's simply playing at a level at which we know they could when we signed them. Now you can blame people for not stepping up early in the season -- but I don't think Rondo's leadership and ability to put other people in position to win (all reportedly key qualities of what people around here like to refer to as "true PGs") can come out of this without a dent.

  It's obviously not a coincidence that some of the rotation players started playing better when we had some injuries. There are multiple reasons for this. Rondo being out means, obviously, that other players will have a bigger role in the offense. That's better for the individual players productivity. Doc's also simplified the offense.

  Also, these guys now have more consistent roles on the team and more consistent minutes. We haven't really had set rotations or lineups all year. Sometimes Lee (for instance) would play 10 minutes, sometimes he would play 30. Sometimes he's playing with Rondo, sometimes he's not, and his role would vary based on that.
 
  It's difficult for players to excel without steady roles and steady minutes and it's difficult for teams to play well with constantly changing lineups. Doc would have resolved this issue late in the season (as he has in the past) where he tightens up his rotations to 8-9 players instead of 12 or so. We probably would have seen much of the gelling we're seeing now after that happened.
I thought so. There are multiple reasons, and neither of them is Rondo pounding the ball. Marvelous.

  I can see why you're looking for it as it's the only reason that ever occurred to you. I would have thought that Doc changing the offense and them having a bigger role on the offense would have covered whatever you think the "Rondo effect" on them was.

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #76 on: February 11, 2013, 01:46:12 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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I'm guessing the Rondo bashing will stop around the same time the Rondacolytes cease chasing people across threads that say anything that could possily be construed as Rondo criticism.

Amen bro

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #77 on: February 11, 2013, 01:53:49 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I can see why you're looking for it as it's the only reason that ever occurred to you. I would have thought that Doc changing the offense and them having a bigger role on the offense would have covered whatever you think the "Rondo effect" on them was.
What I said was that I don't think Rondo's leadership and ability to put other people in position to win can come out of this without a dent.

This statement doesn't imply that what you call the "Rondo effect" is the only or even the major reason for what's going on. But it is a part of it, whether you like it or not.

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Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #78 on: February 11, 2013, 02:03:36 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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It does seem strange the type of argumentative tactics Ive seen being used here when criticizing Rondo. We went (I think) 10-1 without KG, but we never thought we were better without KG, and bought that faith wholesale because of back credit accumulated. But we never brought up KG's lackluster games for parts of the 08 playoffs, never used the recent success as justification that KG was expendable or holding the team back, because he's Kevin Garnett, and we knew he was a critical leader who was the very bedrock of the team.

Rondo doesn't have KG's spotless reputation or his MVP pedigree, Rondo's a unique player whose game and reputation does have worts, and maybe that's why we're so quick to use this win streak as a justification. But the parrellels are there; Rondo is argumentably our most talented player, is indisputably a critical leader in the lockerroom, and is an important piece to the very bedrock of the current incarnation of the franchise. He's earned that.

And the reason why the argument is flawed is the same; the team has seen too much greatness, too much success with Rondo, and he's been so good that a 7 game win streak is a paltry sample size as proof positive that the team is 'better off without Rondo'. It should be dismissed out of hand, and no amount of wins between now and the All-star break can tip the scales to justify trading Rondo for anything other than his full value. As Chuck was once wont to say, 'Anything else, would be uncivilized'.

You can't compare losing KG to losing rondo. KG is heads and shoulders more important to the celtics than rondo will ever be. Also its not just the win streak its how we've played during it. This particular team has looked better without rondo than with him. Not talking about last years team or the one before that. I'm talking about this particular group of guys. I'm just calling it how i see it.

And why can't you compare them? Because KG is KG? Rondo's absence caused players who had been underperforming to play harder, the team gelled around the weakness, like a herd of Buffalo protecting an injured member. The same thing happened with Kg. glen Davis was kind of a big deal for a while there, and ultimately you can easily point to 2009 as the year that made BBD resent the 'shadow' he was playing under. Courtney Lee, similarly, was reported to be unhappy with his role wih Rondo, and Jason Terry hadnt yet found his rhythm.

It's the same thing, just one guy is unimpeachable because he's Kevin Garnett.

And the conclusion should be the same; even if the team can come together and play inspired ball for stretches, it doesn't mean we're better off without Rondo. It might just mean some guys needed a kick in the arse to play up to their ability.

Boston has always had a tendency to win without Rondo, because our scorers step up.  Instead of having 4 scorers and a passer, you have 5 scorers.  The impact hasn't historically been that great.

I'm a little annoyed by so many people bringing up 2009 as an example of how Boston played "great" without KG.  It's forgetting the fact that Paul Pierce and Ray Allen were still allstar players at the time.  Rondo was coming into his own.  Perkins was at the height of his defensive powers.  We won games in spite of Glen Davis not because of him (I was extremely vocal about that at the time... Davis was the beneficiary of his teammates... KG's teammates were the beneficiary of him).  And in the playoffs, the loss of KG was brutal.  It took mighty otherworldly performances from Ray Allen and Rondo to even knock off the young Bulls in 7 games (including multiple overtime games)... a team that we DESTROYED the next year when we played them in the regular season with KG (28 point blowout on October 30th... 26 point blowout on December 12th)....  Despite the fact we had Ray and Pierce just shy of their prime, KG was the difference between being an pesky little playoff team who could barely scrape by a young Chicago team... to a legit contender that lost the championship by 4 points.

KG is integral to the success of this team... especially at this point where we are deprived of bigs and our defense revolves around his skillset.  Losing KG at this point would be catastrophic.  Losing Rondo is mostly just annoying.   Any other year, losing Rondo would be more difficult... but this team is stacked with guards and all of them are better scorers/shooters than Rondo.
In 09 the C's lost to an inferior magic team.  The next year we dominated them with KG.  It's high comedy to think that we were in any way shape or form better without KG.

In this case, we just need to see what happens over the 38 games without rondo.  Let's not overreact one way or the other.

People can call 8-0 a small sample size and it is... but the phenomena of Boston winning games without Rondo isn't really new.  I've been bringing it up for a couple years now.  Pierce generally was the one who stepped up.

There was an 8 game stretch a while back with Rondo out and Pierce stepped up:

1/20 (LOSS) 12 points, 6 assists, 3 rebounds, 2 steals, 2 blocks
1/22 (Win) 34 points, 10 assists, 8 rebounds, 3 steals
1/23 (win) 19 points, 7 assists, 5 rebounds
1/26 (win) 24 points, 10 assists, 6 rebounds, 1 block
1/27 (win) 28 points, 8 assists, 10 rebounds, 3 steals,2  blocks
1/29 (loss) 18 points, 5 assists, 6 rebounds
1/31 (win) 20 points, 6 assists, 4 rebounds, 3 steals
2/1 (win) 17 points, 8 assists, 6 rebounds, 1 steal, 1 block
4/18 (win) 29 points, 14 assists, 5 rebounds, 2 steals

            Pierce usually steps up his game with Rondo out... which makes sense since the ball pretty much flowed through him his entire career up until late 2009.

Another example: 5/1 (win) 36 points, 14 rebounds, 4 assists.

... anyone surprised that Pierce put up 27 points, 14 rebounds and 14 assists vs Denver?  He's always been our 2nd more important player.  KG has always been our MVP.  And Rondo has always been a fantastic player who was incredibly overrated by some of Boston's fans.  He's got a great skillset and he's a bonified all-star... but our offense survives without him.  He's not as integral to this team as KG or Pierce.  And this year we have the added benefit of additional scorers like Lee, Terry and Barbosa who can ease the blow of losing Rondo... not to mention the defensive improvement of a Lee and Bradley back-court.  It makes sense why we are holding down the fort without our 3rd best player.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 02:14:42 PM by LarBrd33 »

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #79 on: February 11, 2013, 02:11:29 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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The labeling of reasonable or constructive criticisms and opinions as "Bashing" or "Hatred" has got to stop.

TP.

Really sad how many people worry more about Rondo than they do the Celtic franchise.

And revealing.

It may be that Rondo's game and its vagaries are a poor fit on this basketball team.

Doesn't mean the guy isn't talented. Means the guy's game - its strengths and its substantial warts, whether some of you want to admit it or not - doesn't fit with Pierce, KG, et al anymore.

As some of us have been saying for awhile.
I'm just going to cut and paste what I said about this last year: 

I've been called a "hater" by many ignorant fans on this forum.  I love Rondo.  He's my 2nd favorite player to watch... but I agree people have an unrealistic perception of him.  He's a fantastic player, but there are better point guards in this league.  Chris Paul is better, for example.  I don't even feel it's debatable.  Still... by taking this stance, my fellow Celtic fans think I'm a traitor. 

I was reading an article on the HBO series "Girls" the other day.  It's a good show.  It has made me laugh several times.  It's not perfect, but I appreciate it.  There's been a ton of internet backlash about it.  A lot of the backlash revolves around some ridiculous nepotism claims.  A lot of people "hate" it for petty reasons.  I was reading the comments section in the article and a user named Homo_Erectus really summed up the culture behind this mentality:

Quote

Haven’t seen the episode yet, though it’s DVR’d. But I’ll tell you why there’s a backlash…

Because this is THE AGE OF HYPERBOLE. The internet has ushered in an era where everything is the “best”, “worst”, “greatest”, “stupidest”, “genius”, “most moronic”, etc.

If we aren’t totally in love with something then we must hate it, right?

Few have any self moderation, and too many have absolutely NO sense of perspective. “You said it was awesome and I watched it and it wasn’t awesome, therefore it’s terrible!”

I think he absolutely hit the nail on the head here.  We live in "THE AGE OF HYPERBOLE".  If I don't think Rondo is the "best" that must mean I think he's the "worst", right?  That kind of thinking needs to end.  I love Pierce, but at no point did I consider him as good as LeBron James.  That doesn't mean I'm a Pierce hater.  Have some perspective.

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #80 on: February 11, 2013, 02:21:42 PM »

Online foulweatherfan

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I was reading an article on the HBO series "Girls" the other day.  It's a good show.  It has made me laugh several times.  It's not perfect, but I appreciate it.  There's been a ton of internet backlash about it.  A lot of the backlash revolves around some ridiculous nepotism claims.  A lot of people "hate" it for petty reasons.  I was reading the comments section in the article and a user named Homo_Erectus really summed up the culture behind this mentality:

Quote

Haven’t seen the episode yet, though it’s DVR’d. But I’ll tell you why there’s a backlash…

Because this is THE AGE OF HYPERBOLE. The internet has ushered in an era where everything is the “best”, “worst”, “greatest”, “stupidest”, “genius”, “most moronic”, etc.

If we aren’t totally in love with something then we must hate it, right?

Few have any self moderation, and too many have absolutely NO sense of perspective. “You said it was awesome and I watched it and it wasn’t awesome, therefore it’s terrible!”

I think he absolutely hit the nail on the head here.  We live in "THE AGE OF HYPERBOLE".  If I don't think Rondo is the "best" that must mean I think he's the "worst", right?  That kind of thinking needs to end.  I love Pierce, but at no point did I consider him as good as LeBron James.  That doesn't mean I'm a Pierce hater.  Have some perspective.

THE AGE OF HYPERBOLE is a hyperbolic statement itself.  People have always gravitated to extremes, because it's easier than nuance.  The adjective becomes the argument.  Only thing the internet's done is give us a forum to exchange our hyperbolic positions faster and to more people.  Maybe there's some element of oneupsmanship on top of that, but the tendency isn't remotely a new one.


On the main topic, I don't really like the labeling stuff either, not because of the negativity but because it polarizes everything.  Rondo doesn't have to be either the best point guard in the league or a self-centered ballhog who drags the team down.  Plenty of gray area there.

How about this - we aren't better off without Rondo, but we can sure learn some ways to be better off with him, and maybe win some games in the process.  Let's enjoy the ride while it lasts and hope we can lay the foundation for a better team when he returns.

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #81 on: February 11, 2013, 02:23:24 PM »

Offline OsirusCeltics

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Rondo criticism means rondo bashing? And why does it have to stop? If people feel like the celtics are better without rondo that's their opinion. I don't think we're better without him per say but I think we're better without him dominating the ball tho.

Sadly the only way that was going to stop was the exact way it did, by rondo going down with a season ending injury. That's more on doc than anything. He had the players to make it work, he just wasn't making it work. Another example of doc being overrated.

Wow almost verbatim of what I was gonna say
Thanks you saved me making a post, TP

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #82 on: February 11, 2013, 02:32:18 PM »

Offline snowball

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PFFF TO RONDO AND HIS ASSIST PADDING
NO MOMENTUM GAME

CELTICS BETTER WITHOUT HIM

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #83 on: February 11, 2013, 02:32:59 PM »

Offline RJ87

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I've said it before, and I'll say it again - I'm getting to a point now where I hope Rondo gets. I think he deserves to play for a fanbase that actually appreciates what he brings to the table at some point in his career. Things go wrong, its Rondo's fault.  Things go well, everyone else gets the credit. 

Some people here claim Rondo is "overrated" around here. The funny thing is, if you go to other SB Nation sites, his game is pretty well respected. Its mostly around CelticsBlog that he ges beat down and scapegoated so much.

Since he went down, certain guys have stepped up - namely Paul. If we had this version of Paul since the beginning of the season,  our record would be better than it is. Jeff Green has been more consistent. These things are not within Rondo's control, but he gets most of the blame.
Quote
Ainge had mentioned he expects Rondo to get paid 'star money.' On that subject, Rondo said, 'I'm making star money now, really. Its a pretty good living. I'll let my agent handle those terms.'

You have to be good before you can be great. Build a team instead of tearing it down.

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #84 on: February 11, 2013, 02:40:44 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Some people here claim Rondo is "overrated" around here. The funny thing is, if you go to other SB Nation sites, his game is pretty well respected. Its mostly around CelticsBlog that he ges beat down and scapegoated so much.
It's not funny. There are two things people don't understand:

(1) The fact that his game is respected around the league makes it possible to get some real value in a trade. As in, a player that's at least as good as Rondo (believe it or not, those exist in the NBA).

(2) The world (or the Boston Celtics) doesn't end if you trade Rondo.

So yeah, people who ignore (1) and think (2) is false clearly overrate Rondo.
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Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #85 on: February 11, 2013, 02:58:40 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I've said it before, and I'll say it again - I'm getting to a point now where I hope Rondo gets. I think he deserves to play for a fanbase that actually appreciates what he brings to the table at some point in his career.
Careful, now... there's nothing different happening here than what was happening with Ray Allen. Constant whining from the fanbase about his streaks.  Constant undermining of his importance to our offense.  Constant hypothetical trade threads.  Furthermore, the team was openly shopping him constantly and even thought they had traded him last year. 

Then after we benched him for an unproven guard, signed Jason Terry and Courtney Lee and effectively eliminated his role... he decides to play in a contender who needs him and half this forum acts like he's the biggest snake in the world.  If Rondo bails on us for a team that "appreciates" him more (sounds like the Lakers covet him), hopefully you forgive him as much as fans here forgave Ray Ray.

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #86 on: February 11, 2013, 03:22:14 PM »

Offline RJ87

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I've said it before, and I'll say it again - I'm getting to a point now where I hope Rondo gets. I think he deserves to play for a fanbase that actually appreciates what he brings to the table at some point in his career.
Careful, now... there's nothing different happening here than what was happening with Ray Allen. Constant whining from the fanbase about his streaks.  Constant undermining of his importance to our offense.  Constant hypothetical trade threads.  Furthermore, the team was openly shopping him constantly and even thought they had traded him last year. 

Then after we benched him for an unproven guard, signed Jason Terry and Courtney Lee and effectively eliminated his role... he decides to play in a contender who needs him and half this forum acts like he's the biggest snake in the world.  If Rondo bails on us for a team that "appreciates" him more (sounds like the Lakers covet him), hopefully you forgive him as much as fans here forgave Ray Ray.

He's already disliked by a nice portion of his own fanbase, so I already forgive the guy for when he decides to leave Boston.
Quote
Ainge had mentioned he expects Rondo to get paid 'star money.' On that subject, Rondo said, 'I'm making star money now, really. Its a pretty good living. I'll let my agent handle those terms.'

You have to be good before you can be great. Build a team instead of tearing it down.

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #87 on: February 11, 2013, 03:26:52 PM »

Offline StartOrien

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Rondo bashing has brought me to the other side of the pendulum.

Used to be someone who thought Rondo was a little overrated, or a 'hater' in chatroom terms.

Now people have gone too far. And treating him like he's an average point guard, and not a guy who was outright murderous in the playoffs.

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #88 on: February 11, 2013, 03:27:49 PM »

Offline RJ87

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Some people here claim Rondo is "overrated" around here. The funny thing is, if you go to other SB Nation sites, his game is pretty well respected. Its mostly around CelticsBlog that he ges beat down and scapegoated so much.
It's not funny. There are two things people don't understand:

(1) The fact that his game is respected around the league makes it possible to get some real value in a trade. As in, a player that's at least as good as Rondo (believe it or not, those exist in the NBA).

(2) The world (or the Boston Celtics) doesn't end if you trade Rondo.

So yeah, people who ignore (1) and think (2) is false clearly overrate Rondo.

"Believe it or not, those exist in the NBA."

I can't really respond the way I want because it will probably get me banned, but I will say this - you're pretty condescending and its unnecessary.
Quote
Ainge had mentioned he expects Rondo to get paid 'star money.' On that subject, Rondo said, 'I'm making star money now, really. Its a pretty good living. I'll let my agent handle those terms.'

You have to be good before you can be great. Build a team instead of tearing it down.

Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
« Reply #89 on: February 11, 2013, 03:41:29 PM »

Offline RJ87

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Rondo bashing has brought me to the other side of the pendulum.

Used to be someone who thought Rondo was a little overrated, or a 'hater' in chatroom terms.

Now people have gone too far. And treating him like he's an average point guard, and not a guy who was outright murderous in the playoffs.

And I think that's the heart of the "Rondo's overrated" claim. Are there people who overvalue him? Yes. That can be said for a lot of players. If you calmly and respectfully talk to Rondo fans, a lot of them - such as myself - don't think he's perfect. As I've said myself, I believe he's a great building block, but not good enough to be the centerpiece of rebuild. But there's an overwhelming sense of negativity towards him so it makes a lot of people defensive.  There's this desire to devalue what he does bring to this team and undermine what he's accomplished.
Quote
Ainge had mentioned he expects Rondo to get paid 'star money.' On that subject, Rondo said, 'I'm making star money now, really. Its a pretty good living. I'll let my agent handle those terms.'

You have to be good before you can be great. Build a team instead of tearing it down.

 

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